Catholics Worship Mary!

[Church_Militant]

There is no worship of the saints or the Blessed Virgin among us. No Catholic who knows his ear from his elbow would ever even think of such a thing and anyone who tells you such a thing doesn’t know what they are talking about.

There’s an awful lot that you just have not ever really looked into and do not understand. Yours is not a historically accurate picture of real NT Christianity, no matter what your pastor says. I heard that from every non-Catholic minister I met for over 34 years before I checked it out for myself and discovered that they were wrong about most all of this.

I hope that answers what you were trying to say.

Yeah…me too buddy.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Church_Militant]

bjcros:

I should have said that they don’t have any evidence. I was typing really fast or something I don’t know, why I said that. So I ask can you produce any evidence that she did die?

That’s your allegation and so the burden of said proof falls upon you…not me.

However I do touch on this in a later post

 

[bjcros]

Church Militant:

Does she have to be? Wasn’t Philip snatched away to Azotus by the Holy Spirit? If God empowers the saints to be aware and to help us then is that inconsistent with His ways? Look ate Hebrews 12:1. A great cloud of witnesses…witnesses that are there as in an arena to encourage us to run that race. (the author of Hebrews goes on to say.)

You cannot prove this historically. We have historical claims as to where the remains of all the apostles are, but there has been no verified claims of the remains of the Blessed Virgin. In fact there are indeed early Christian writings that allege that Mary was assumed into heaven at the time of her death and that the apostles were there when it happened. the same thing can be said of Moses, Enoch, and Elijah…why not the mother of God?

Look…you do not understand the doctrine of the Immaculate conception at all: Have a lok at this: catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp
catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

then you do not follow the clear instructions of the Word of God.

1st Timothy 2:1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:

BTW verse 5 there is the one that you allude to.

James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Obviously the Word of God says that we are to intercede for each other and all men

You fail to understand something even more important about who the Blessed Virgin is the scheme of things. I recommend that you do a Hebrew word study (Since you probably have a Strong’s concordance lying there handy anyway) on the title “Giberah” and find out what it means, who it was, and what their function was.

Answer these questions as you do so:

1. Was Mary the mother of Jesus?
2. Is Jesus desended from King David?
3. Is Jesus then the Messiah?
4. Does this not fulfill His prophetic place as King of Israel, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords?

If all this is answered correctly then the next aspect concerning Mary is very simply true as well.

1. What is Mary’s official position as the mother of the Messiah?
2. What then are her duties in that position?
3. Note that she began to fulfill those duties as early as the wedding feast at Cana in John 2 and what was her messsage even then? (Hint: “Do whatever He tells you.”

Granted God needs no one’s help, being omnipotent , right?
Then why did He create angels and why does He send them to accomplish things that he could do? it’s not out of need…
The book of Revelations says that the saints in heaven speak to God. If they are part of that great cloud of witnesses then are they not surely interceding for us? They have no need to pray for themselves, but Hebrews 12:1 clearly shows that they are aware of our race here below. Do they just sit on their hands like a mob of sedated zombies? The Christian Church has believed in the intercession of saints from the very beginning as the graves of the martyrs in the catacombs prove by their many requests for intercession of the saints buried there on the tombs themselves.

cont’d

Alright I see what you are saying and I am not as well prepared. I don’t have all of the evidence in front of me. I will not post again until I become more informed and can make a straight logical and biblical argument for what I believe. Thank you for all of your help. I understand many things better now. I won’t make the mistake of saying that catholics worship mary. Although I still do disagree with other things.

 

[deb1]

bjcros:

I don’t pray to my family.

Of course, you don’t pray to your family, but if you had a sick family member would you hesitate to ask another Christian to pray for your loved one? Of course not! Praying to Saints or Mary is not different.

Mary isn’t everywhere unlike her son. Mary isn’t omniprescent. Or do you hold that she is? Your not comparing the same things. The saints are no longer on this earth and neither is Mary.

Oh goody, a literal few seconds before I read your post, I came across this in Karl Keating’s Catholicism And FUndamentalism:
"…heaven has no space or time. In heaven everything happens in one great Present; there is neither past nor future in our sense of the terms. When God looks at his creation, he sees all of it at once, all that has been all that now is, all that will be. It is by his sufferance we communicate with one another on earth, and he likewise lets us communicate with the saints in heaven,-who like God, are outside of space and time. To say that they do not have time to listen to many prayers at once is to commit a basic error-they do not have time at all, because they are beyond time. This does not imply that they therefore must be omniscient as is God, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us."

I don’t really ask for people to pray for me but I know that there are people who do it. I hope that answers what you were trying to say.

How sad. You really have never asked a fellow Christian to pray for you? What about when you have trials and sorrows? You don’t pray for other people? WHy not? Even Paul asked other Christians to pray for him.

 

[jimmy]

bjcros:

The prayers of the righteous do avail. The Catholic belief is that Mary didn’t die but was assumed into heaven. At least that is what I have seen.

What you have seen is inaccurate. The Catholic Church does not define whether she died or did not die.

bjcros:

There is no scriptual proof either way,

It does not matter if there is scriptural proof. The Church is not built on the bible. The Church is older than the bible and all books in the bible, and the writers of the bible were members of the Church, they were not writing inorder to explain all teachings of the Church. They were writing to dispute errors.

Second, which book of the bible would mention it? The books of Paul were written in the 40’s and 50’s AD. Was Mary definately dead by then? She would have been at most 73 years considering she was thirteen when she gave birth to Christ. Revelation is a book that deals with a vision John had that deals with liturgy and end times. The gospels deal with the life of Jesus and mention nothing later than the ascention. The Acts of the Apostles deals with only Peter and Paul. Peter was martyred in 67AD so his epistles were written before then. Mary may have still been alive.

What book would deal with it? Further, the Church is founded on tradition.

bjcros:

but because I hold that she was with sin just as everyone with the seed of man since the time of Adam is, the conclusion is she died. Because death is a consequence of the sin.

That is what you hold, contrary to what the early Christians held.

bjcros:

But Catholics hold that she was without sin(Despite very little scriptual evidence ie. one verse and that verse’s translation is disputed that verse is Luke 1:28 I think), therefore they conclude that she didn’t die.

Very wrong, we do not conclude that she did not die, we just conclude that she was assumed. Second, as I said above, the teaching is not found on scripture, it is found in Apostolic Tradition. The scripture tells you to listen to the traditions of the Church whether by word of mouth or epistle. It also says that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth, not scripture.

Scripture does support it though, in Luke 1 and in Genesis 3.

bjcros:

But because Jesus was not born with the seed of man, but rather through God. Jesus was without sin, until God placed the burden of all the sins of the choosen upon him. When Jesus took on the sins of the choosen he was then able to die,he did and in doing so payed the price for our sins.

This is wrong, Christ was born of human flesh and he was born with the same deformaties that all men are born with. He was subject to death, but through the ressurection he conquered death. He was subject to death because that is part of the nature of the flesh. It is not only passed on by the man, it is a nature of the flesh. You have come to this conclusion with no scriptural support at all.

With your conclusion you are saying that Jesus was guilty of our sins and that caused his death. That is heresy.

bjcros:

I can’t say there is anything wrong with praying to someone who has died and is now in heaven, because Jesus died and is in Heaven. By praying to the saints or Mary as intecessors, you add another intecessor that I don’t think should be there. Jesus came for the purpose of being an intecessor, and it doesn’t make sense to have an intecessor to the intecessor.

The intercession of The Son is between us and The Father. The intercession of the saints is between us and The Son. Not that we need an intercessor between us and The Son, but it is profittable because the saints have been perfected in Christ and there prayers are more righteous than ours. “The prayers of a righteous man availeth us much.” They also bring you closer to the heavenly Church. The Catholic Church teaches that you don’t cease to be a part of the body of Christ at death, on the contrary you become more in communion with the body of Christ.

Me praying to a saint in heaven is the same as you asking your mother or sister or wife or husband or whatever to pray to God for you. It is the same thing. The only difference is that they are more righteous than your mother, so there prayers are much greater.

 

[jimmy]

bjcros:

Alright first of all there is the answer that the abortionists would give. I will give their’s first, they would argue that it isn’t living. I don’t like that answer. I hold the baby is living at the point of conception. The baby was born of the seed of man. Which is to say that, a man was involved in the concepcion, when the egg was enseminated. Through the man was passed the taint of original sin.

Original Sin is not passed on attached to the sperm. It is a part of the nature of mankind after the fall, not of the sperm. This belief is founded upon one verse that says through one man all have sinned. Your understanding of this verse is false. The truth is that through one man sin was brought into the world and caused all of mankind to sin. It is not true to speak of it in reference to generating original sin. Original sin is just the lack of original justice, and does not cause death itself. Death was caused by the fall itself.

 

[deb1]

bjcros:

I. I don’t really ask for people to pray for me but I know that there are people who do it. I hope that answers what you were trying to say.

How sad. Do you really not ask others to pray for you? Why not? So, if someone close to you was in trouble you would not ask your Christian friends to pray for that person?

 

[auhsoj88]

First of all since when does kneeling mean worship. Prots, please find a verse to support your premise. If you are a sola scriptura guy then back up what you say using just scripture that kneeling is worship. Prohohibition of kneeling is not even one of the 10 commandments. I you can’t find a verse that says just that, then don’t twist them!

I once kneeled to my girlfriend, and prayed (pray means to ask) that she marry me. According to Prot definition I prayed and worshipped her, too! How absurd! I kneeled because it humbles me, and will know that I am serious and sincere with my request.

Same thing with Saints. And if your a Christian, one must believe in Everlasting life. A continuum of life is what everlasting means, …not a interruption of death in between human death and resurrection. Everlasting means everlasting! Because God is the god of the living not the dead!

Second, the word “imagine” comes from the word “image”. Prots may not pray in front of statues but they sure imagine! (as even a thought can be a sin, right?). In fact it is impossible for one to pray (protestant or not) and not create sometype of mental image in their mind to help them with their focus.

I tell my kids to think of Jesus or angels when they are scared, does that mean they are violating Gods commandment when creating mental images of what God or the Angels may or may not look like. What happens if they draw pictures of angels on paper and tape them to the wall, are they in violation then? What if my daughter says a picture of a angel on the wall makes her feel safe. As a father should I deny my child? Aren’t we all children of God?

The truth is that Images are powerful when used as a tool. Take for example the movie the Passion of the Christ. The movie is filled with images from beginning to end. Millions sobbed, weeped, cried, and even converted when seeing the film. Why did this happen? How did Christians evangelize 1700 years ago? Did everybody speak in tongues? No! They used art as a tool, …and a statue is a form of art!

Just as a pervert can get aroused by looking at images in a playboy magazines, so to a Christian can be humbled by looking at a painting, a movie, or a statue. They are just tools of focus. We meditate on the saints depicted and ask them to pray (ask) for us.

Plain and simple, The ability to imagine is part of our humanity - people simply need to see visuals to help them.

If I make a graven image (dead image) of a cow and say the cow is my God, then I would be in violation. Plain and simple

Good bless all you!

 

[mj330]

Catholic Dude:

I have something for all your Prots out there:

Come on Prots risk Hellfire and say O Blessed Virgin!!! Its right there, how many times have you talked about Her as some sack of potatoes and it NEVER NEVER EVEN CROSSED YOUR MIND to ever call Her BLESSED!!! when it says to!!!
Lord have mercy on us, we fear you, your Mother is Blessed!!!

Also I suggest you refresh yourselves with good old Proverbs 31 (all of it), here is the best part:

Praise and Honor O Blessed Virgin!!! From GENERATION TO GENERATION!!!

I’m a Prot who agrees with you CD. The Psalmist writes of God:
“All nations shall call Him blessed.” (psalms72:17). This is a comparable word to the passage in Luke, which does not mean worship in this case; but a sense of honor. How can both God and Mary be call blessed? Because my fellow Protestants, worship is an act; blessed is a trait.

 

[1962Missal]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Miguel,Its not the first commandment you break,its the second.You shall not make yourself any graven images. Dont bow down to anything BUT God. God Bless

Please demonstrate that the veneration of sacred images is intrinsically wicked, and, therefore forbidden by the natural moral law like murder and adultery. Unless it is, then, since the precepts of the old Law which were not based upon the Law of Love (the moral Law) were abrogated with the New Covenant, the prohibition you cite in the decalogue is no more in effect than the requirement to circumcise.

You do believe that the ritual regulations of the Old Covenant were abrogated, right? Or was St. Paul wrong and the Judaizers right?

Justin

 

[cornerstone]

“Full” means completely filled–no room for sin. All have sinned except Jesus and the Blessed mother. The rest of us will require some form of purgation.

yes we do need purgation and that is exactly what Jesus did on the cross for us. he took the punishment for our sin. if you believe that we need purgatory when we die maybe you did not hear the words of Jesus on the cross: It is finished.

 

[cornerstone]

John 19:25-27 (King James Version)

25Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 27Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

If a woman has a son and her son dies she continues to be that man’s mother.
If a son puts his mother under the care of someone else, is not that woman still his mother?
so why did Jesus at this moment called Mary “woman” and not “Mother”?

 

[TNT]

John 19:25-27 (King James Version)

25Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 27Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

If a woman has a son and her son dies she continues to be that man’s mother.
If a son puts his mother under the care of someone else, is not that woman still his mother?
so** why did Jesus at this moment called Mary “woman” and not “Mother”**?

1. So people in your times would still be able to link Gen3, Cana, And Rev 12:1.
2. So that you may know that if she was to be the Mother of the Beloved Apostle of the Church, then she is your’s also…IF you are in the Church St John was in. Christ shares His Mother to all in the True Faith…just like He shares all the rest of His life with True Believers.

 

[Church_Militant]

John 19:25-27 (King James Version)

25Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 27Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

If a woman has a son and her son dies she continues to be that man’s mother.
If a son puts his mother under the care of someone else, is not that woman still his mother?
so why did Jesus at this moment called Mary “woman” and not “Mother”?

Does Jesus ever in the Gospels call Mary “mother” ? No, He does not. “Woman”, on the other hand is a term of respect. If you are implying a lack of respect or consideration for the Blessed Virgin by Jesus, I would refer you to the fact that since Jesus was God incarnate that he would surely have fulfilled the 4th commandment perfectly.

However, one thing you don’t seem to have tripped to is the fact that IF Jesus had really had blood brothers and sisters as some try to tell us (though even John Calvin did not believe so) they would’ve been responsible for the care of Mary…but if he had no such kin…then this is why one of His very last acts from the cross was to insure the care of the Blessed Virgin by St. John. :bigyikes:
Pax vobiscum, :irish1:

 

[TNT]

cornerstone:

yes we do need purgation and that is exactly what Jesus did on the cross for us. he took the punishment for our sin. if you believe that we need purgatory when we die maybe you did not hear the words of Jesus on the cross: It is finished.

We hear the words of Scripture, ALL of it! Not disconnected pieces.
If you think we are not to suffer for our sins and not only ours, but all the world, just as Christ did, think again:

Colossians 1 :24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

You won’t hear this verse in any Faith Only sect from the preacher. They can’t figure it out honestly except in the Catholic sense which is a no no. Not because it is not true, but because it is so very Catholic.
How quickly we forget the 15 long years of suffering of Terri Shiavo. Was this a punishment for her sins? If not, then for who? For suffer she did and far greaterr than others more deserving of it.

Your theory negates the need to suffer in this life, and indeed, if not sufficient in this life, then the next before Heaven is our glrory too. Purgatory is the Hall of Justice where all exit in the same state of sanctity…and isn’t that the ideal way it should be to a perfectly just as well as merciful God.?
Our sufferings, for our sins and for those of others is made EFFICATIOUS (effective in God’s eyes) ONLY when sanctified through the perfect and sufficient suffering of the God-Man Jesus Christ. Otherwise our suffering and punishment could NEVER be satisfactory to the God offended.
Under your theory, there is no valid answer for suffering of the innocent or lack thereof for the guilty, though repentent and forgiven.
The Catholic God is a not capricious sadist.

 

[Mickey]

cornerstone:

yes we do need purgation and that is exactly what Jesus did on the cross for us. he took the punishment for our sin. if you believe that we need purgatory when we die maybe you did not hear the words of Jesus on the cross: It is finished.

I will not debate purgatory with you on this thread. You may want to check this out:

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711word.asp

 

[mayra_hart]

martin luther: " in this work whereby she was made the mother of God, so many and such good things were given her that no one can grasp them… not only was Mary the mother of Him who is born (in bethlehem), but of him who , before the world, was eternally born of the father, from the mother in time and at the same time man and god" santa maria madre de dios…

 

[Catholic_Dude]

mj330:

I’m a Prot who agrees with you CD. The Psalmist writes of God:“All nations shall call Him blessed.” (psalms72:17). This is a comparable word to the passage in Luke, which does not mean worship in this case; but a sense of honor. How can both God and Mary be call blessed? Because my fellow Protestants, worship is an act; blessed is a trait.

So how many Prots have ever said the words “Blessed Mary”?, from what I have seen never in a million years would say that.
an important part of my original post:

…how many times have you talked about Her as some sack of potatoes and it NEVER NEVER EVEN CROSSED YOUR MIND to ever call Her BLESSED!!!

If it is simply a trait why is it never attributed to Her regularly? even once in a blue moon? There is good old Ruth and Esther and the gang who get a lot of publicity in Prot circles, but in all the prot churches I have been to, somehow Mary turns into nothing more than the Christmas present box that Christ came in, and in the end gets put back in the attic on Dec 26 and sits collecting dust until next year.