Catholics Worship Mary!

[deb1]

Just a thought. As someone coming from an fundamentalist background, I am struck by the difference in the Catholic view of the after life and the Prot. view. I was always taught that the dead do not care what goes on here on earth. Catholics believe that death doesn’t cut us off from the communion of believers.(correct me if I understand wrong) I wonder if this difference could have some bearing on why so many Protestants have a difficult time understanding that Catholics don’t worship Mary or any Saints?

 

[Mickey]

deb1:

Catholics believe that death doesn’t cut us off from the communion of believers

Ever wonder why ol’ Marty Luther ripped Macabbees out of the OT?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

**JUST WHAT COMMANDMENT ARE YOU ACCUSING HIM OF BREAKING? **

Hi Mickey. I,m not accusing of any particular one,just that if you break one in Gods eyes we guilty of breaking them all. My point is all it takes is one and we are gulty of breaking His law. How many have you kept Mickey? If you are normal, you like me have probably at one time or another broken them all. God Bless

 

[Mickey]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Mickey. I,m not accusing of any particular one,just that if you break one in Gods eyes we guilty of breaking them all. My point is all it takes is one and we are gulty of breaking His law. How many have you kept Mickey? If you are normal, you like me have probably at one time or another broken them all. God Bless

We all sin…that’s not disputed. It just seems that you posted that remark in reponse to something that Miguel said.

We all have a big fat plank jammed into our eye.

 

[Scalia]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi C.D. Jesus also said BLESSED are the peacemakers and ect. God Bless

Hi Spoken, do their souls magnify the Lord?

 

[Scalia]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Miguel.O.k. Do you keep all the other commandments?. If you break one in Gods eyes you are guilty of them all. God Bless

Key Word = **“IF”. **

 

[Scalia]

Thal59:

Miguel,

I learned through a spiritual crisis last year, something interesting. I always suspected that all people have their own inner prejudices and biases. (Especially true of religion and politics.) But what I learned last year, much to my amazement, was that when these inner prejudices and biases kick in, they trump intelligence. Even the simplest, most easily provable truth, will be rejected by the most intelligent person, if it goes against those inner prejudices and biases.

It is therefore best to simply state one’s case, and leave it at that. If the person you are “debating” with is truly open to the truth, your words will eventually have a positive effect. If they are locked in their biases, nothing you can say wll change their mind no matter how much scripture or history you give them. (Don’t forget that Protestants have a complete contempt for history and reality.)

Regarding the worship of Mary; this is a particularly difficult thing to argue. This is because the “honor” Catholics give Mary is generally greater than the worship Protestants give Jesus, so it only appears to be worship of Mary to the Protestant mind. What Protestants never grasp is that the worship of Jesus by Catholics is far greater than the honor we give to Mary, which in turn is greater than the worship Protestants give to Jesus.

But you’ll never get a Protestant to accept that.

Thal59

This is a fabulous post and comports with my own experience.

 

[Scalia]

"SPOKENWORD:

Hi Mickey, I,m sorry for insulting you. That is not my intent.Truth is what i,m looking for. The act of bowing down to a statue makes it an Idol. God told Moses that the people could look at the serpent and be healed. God never gave permission to go beyond that to venerate the serpent. The Lord wants us to seek His face{PSALM27"]
. Instead many seek the face of Mary,thus distracting from them from fixing their eyes on Jesus and seeking only His face in Heaven. God Bless

People seek Mary because her “soul magnifies the Lord” (Luke 1:46) and the Blessed Mother is the Ark of the Covenant. Revelations.

 

[Scalia]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Mickey, If we are not’’ full of grace’’ when we die we will not see heaven. God Bless

Indeed, this is why John 6 is so important.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Scalia:

Key Word = **“IF”. **

Hi Scalia.IF IS MOST LIKELY. God Bless

 

[Scalia]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Scalia.IF IS MOST LIKELY. God Bless

Agreed, “IF” we are operating under the premise that even the just man sins seven times a day. However, if the “IF” in question is pecular to statues of the Blessed Mother, lets shut the back door.

 

[TobyLue]

Mickey

Hi TobyLue,

For the sake of accuracy, that was SpokenWord who has made these accusations. But He and oudave are one in the same mind.

Thanks and you’re right, like two peas in a pod…

 

[bjcros]

Stone Cold:

I go to the Blessed Mother in prayer the same way I go to my family and friends in prayer. I ask the Blessed Mother to pray for me as I would go to a family member or friend. The second part of the Angelic Salutation is Holy Mary, Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Notice pray FOR us, as we ask her intercession with her Divine Son. If I can ask you to pray for me, how much more the Blessed Mother, who beholds the Holy Trinity in perpetuity.

Prayer consists of four elements:

1. Adoration. This belongs to God alone, as only God is to be adored for who He is. Veneration of the saints, including the Blessed Mother, comes from their doing the will of God. Since the Blessed Mother always does the will of God, she is venerated above all the saints. But we do not adore her as we adore God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the only persons worthy of adoration.

**2. Thanksgiving. **We give thanks to God for all the graces He gives us. We also thank the Blessed Mother and the saints for their prayers for us, in the same manner we thank a family member or friend for praying for us here on earth. Giving thanks to the Blessed Mother does not take away anything from God, just as thanking a friend for praying for us would not take anything away from God. In fact, God is pleased we show gratitude to those who pray for us, as we are part of the Mystical Body of Christ.

**3. Reparation. **We tell God we are sorry for our sins and promise to amend our lives. We can ask the Blessed Mother and the saints to ask God for forgiveness. This shows humility, as we know we are unworthy to approach Jesus because of our sins. We may go directly to God or use the intercession of the saints. This also does not take away from God, just as when we have wronged someone on earth does not take away from God when we ask them for forgiveness. After all, didn’t the prodigal son say to his father, *“Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, I am not now worthy to be called thy son” *(Luke 15:21).

4. Petition. This we may ask Christ directly, or go through the saints, or go through the holy souls in purgatory, or go through those here on earth. This is the most used element of prayer, as we constantly ask God for what we want and need. God is more likely to grant our prayer when we have others pray for us. After all, Christ told us, "For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20).

You err when you restrict prayer to adoration alone. Christ said, “Amen, amen I say to you: if you ask the Father any thing in my name, he will give it you” (John 16:23). When we ask the saints to pray for us, we are asking them to pray to Christ, not to the Father. Therefore, this type of prayer is petition, as we are asking for a favor from the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, through the saints, the same way I ask a friend to pray for me.

Asking the saints to pray for me is no more worship than asking a friend on earth to pray for me.

Pax tecum

I don’t pray to my family. I ask them for help but they are right in front of me. Mary isn’t everywhere unlike her son. Mary isn’t omniprescent. Or do you hold that she is? Your not comparing the same things. The saints are no longer on this earth and neither is Mary. However, your friend is. First of all I hold that Mary died just as everyone else has or will, and because she died she had sin because physical death is a consequence of sin. If someone is/was without sin then Christs death wasn’t necessary. Because even Christ’s blood doesn’t save me from physical death. Augustine shows that Christ death was neccesary. Therefore if Christs death was necessary then no one was without sin. So Mary was a sinfull being just as you and I are. I’m not saying Mary wasn’t accepted and forgiven for her sin just as you and I are, but she just that she was sinfull. I don’t see why you need a intercessor to the one who came as a intercessor. Jesus came to be our intercessor between us and God. You are adding another intercessor to the mix and that is Mary and the Saints. I don’t really ask for people to pray for me but I know that there are people who do it. I hope that answers what you were trying to say.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So, tell me what sin an aborted baby has committed, that the baby dies. . .

I mean, if the baby didn’t sin, he or she wouldn’t die, according to you, right? Since death is a consequence of sin. . .

 

[bjcros]

Church Militant:

And what scriptural evidence is that sir? I don’t think you can produce any. :irish1:

I should have said that they don’t have any evidence. I was typing really fast or something I don’t know, why I said that. So I ask can you produce any evidence that she did die?

 

[bjcros]

STUPID, STUPID UNBIBLICAL IGNORANT LIE

You have no supreme worship, so prayer is the best you can do, therefore you define it as always worship. Traditions of men. Anti-bible tradition.

Way to support your position A+. Don’t come rambling on and not saying anything. I don’t understand what your even saying.

 

[bjcros]

jimmy:

First off, the Catholic Church does not necisarilly believe that Mary did not die. It is perfectly orthodox Catholicism to believe she died and then was assumed into heaven. She may have died, but she may not have. There is no scriptural proof either way.

Second, what is wrong with praying to someone who has died and is now in heaven? They are certainly much more alive now than you or me. Their prayers would be greater than yours since they have already been perfected by God. “The prayers of a righteous man availeth much.”

The prayers of the righteous do avail. The Catholic belief is that Mary didn’t die but was assumed into heaven. At least that is what I have seen. There is no scriptual proof either way, but because I hold that she was with sin just as everyone with the seed of man since the time of Adam is, the conclusion is she died. Because death is a consequence of the sin. But Catholics hold that she was without sin(Despite very little scriptual evidence ie. one verse and that verse’s translation is disputed that verse is Luke 1:28 I think), therefore they conclude that she didn’t die. But because Jesus was not born with the seed of man, but rather through God. Jesus was without sin, until God placed the burden of all the sins of the choosen upon him. When Jesus took on the sins of the choosen he was then able to die,he did and in doing so payed the price for our sins. I can’t say there is anything wrong with praying to someone who has died and is now in heaven, because Jesus died and is in Heaven. By praying to the saints or Mary as intecessors, you add another intecessor that I don’t think should be there. Jesus came for the purpose of being an intecessor, and it doesn’t make sense to have an intecessor to the intecessor.

 

[Tom]

If there is one dominant theme throughout Scripture, both OT & NT it would have to be intercession. Pick any book of the Bible you’ll find intercession. God uses angels, saints, and people, even objects as His tools to communicate with us. Kings ask men to intercede to God; God uses men to intercede between Him and humans. It has to be “the” message of God. Yet now some say God is wrong. God can’t use saints. God can’t use men. God can’t use anyone except Jesus. Hmmm sounds easy, but sorry, it’s not what God tells us. It goes against Scripture. God uses each of us in His divine plan. Does he use Mary? Absolutely! Does He use humans? Absolutely! Does He use all of the saints in heaven? Absolutely! One of the main objections I’ve heard is that Mary and the saints are dead, they can’t do anything. How un-Christian. If this is true then there is no resurrection, then God lied when His Word says Enoch was taken up into heaven and walks with God, and He lied when His Word says Elijah was taken up into heaven. If these people are dead then God is a liar. He promises us if we lose our life for Him we will never die. The death He protects us from is our eternal death, or eternity without Him. Angels are in heaven, as are the saints, and yes, God can and does use them as He decides, not as you or I decide.

 

[bjcros]

Tantum ergo:

So, tell me what sin an aborted baby has committed, that the baby dies. . .

I mean, if the baby didn’t sin, he or she wouldn’t die, according to you, right? Since death is a consequence of sin. . .

Alright first of all there is the answer that the abortionists would give. I will give their’s first, they would argue that it isn’t living. I don’t like that answer. I hold the baby is living at the point of conception. The baby was born of the seed of man. Which is to say that, a man was involved in the concepcion, when the egg was enseminated. Through the man was passed the taint of original sin.

 

[Church_Militant]

Mary isn’t everywhere unlike her son. Mary isn’t omniprescent. Or do you hold that she is?
Your not comparing the same things. The saints are no longer on this earth and neither is Mary. However, your friend is.

Does she have to be? Wasn’t Philip snatched away to Azotus by the Holy Spirit? If God empowers the saints to be aware and to help us then is that inconsistent with His ways? Look ate Hebrews 12:1. A great cloud of witnesses…witnesses that are there as in an arena to encourage us to run that race. (the author of Hebrews goes on to say.)

First of all I hold that Mary died just as everyone else has or will, and because she died she had sin because physical death is a consequence of sin.

You cannot prove this historically. We have historical claims as to where the remains of all the apostles are, but there has been no verified claims of the remains of the Blessed Virgin. In fact there are indeed early Christian writings that allege that Mary was assumed into heaven at the time of her death and that the apostles were there when it happened. the same thing can be said of Moses, Enoch, and Elijah…why not the mother of God?

If someone is/was without sin then Christs death wasn’t necessary. Because even Christ’s blood doesn’t save me from physical death. Augustine shows that Christ death was neccesary. Therefore if Christs death was necessary then no one was without sin. So Mary was a sinfull being just as you and I are. I’m not saying Mary wasn’t accepted and forgiven for her sin just as you and I are, but she just that she was sinfull.

Look…you do not understand the doctrine of the Immaculate conception at all: Have a lok at this: catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp
catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

I don’t see why you need a intercessor to the one who came as a intercessor. Jesus came to be our intercessor between us and God. You are adding another intercessor to the mix and that is Mary and the Saints. I don’t really ask for people to pray for me but I know that there are people who do it.

then you do not follow the clear instructions of the Word of God.

1st Timothy 2:1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:

BTW verse 5 there is the one that you allude to.

James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Obviously the Word of God says that we are to intercede for each other and all men

You fail to understand something even more important about who the Blessed Virgin is the scheme of things. I recommend that you do a Hebrew word study (Since you probably have a Strong’s concordance lying there handy anyway) on the title “Giberah” and find out what it means, who it was, and what their function was.

Answer these questions as you do so:

1. Was Mary the mother of Jesus?
2. Is Jesus desended from King David?
3. Is Jesus then the Messiah?
4. Does this not fulfill His prophetic place as King of Israel, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords?

If all this is answered correctly then the next aspect concerning Mary is very simply true as well.

1. What is Mary’s official position as the mother of the Messiah?
2. What then are her duties in that position?
3. Note that she began to fulfill those duties as early as the wedding feast at Cana in John 2 and what was her messsage even then? (Hint: “Do whatever He tells you.”

Granted God needs no one’s help, being omnipotent , right?
Then why did He create angels and why does He send them to accomplish things that he could do? it’s not out of need…
The book of Revelations says that the saints in heaven speak to God. If they are part of that great cloud of witnesses then are they not surely interceding for us? They have no need to pray for themselves, but Hebrews 12:1 clearly shows that they are aware of our race here below. Do they just sit on their hands like a mob of sedated zombies? The Christian Church has believed in the intercession of saints from the very beginning as the graves of the martyrs in the catacombs prove by their many requests for intercession of the saints buried there on the tombs themselves.

cont’d