Catholics Worship Mary!

[Mickey]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Mickey, I was wasnt speaking YOU personally. I know some do. I did it myself. Jesus says we are to pray in Spirit And Truth. I dont need any statues to bring me in focus with the Spirit of God. God Bless

God Bless you then. You are one of the few who can keep your focus on God constantly and effortlessly.

 

[Mickey]

oudave:

Hi
Still doesn’t mean sinless.
Dave.

Grace = The state of being protected or sanctified by the favor of God.

Sactification = To make Holy; purify

Okay Dave,

Jesus and Mary are both “full of grace”. They are made Holy and purified. They are protected. Protected from what Dave? If you think that full of grace does not mean sinless, you are free to believe that. You have free will. I also have 2000 years of Sacred Tradition. But you don’t accept that either. Again, you have free will.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Speaking for myself, I have a statue of Mary in my room. I don’t “bow down” to it. In fact, I have never seen anybody “bow down” to a statue in church or in their homes. I’ve never confused a statue with the actual Mary (or a statue of Jesus with the actual Jesus). I’ve never thought, “Hey, it’s time to go over to a hunk of wood/ stone/ space-age polymer, mumble my meaningless ritual phrases TO that there idol, ignore God or elevate the idol above him, and ask that IDOL to grant me my requests”.

Do I “need” a statue of Mary (or Jesus)? No. I can, and do, pray to God and/OR worship God “without” looking at a statue (note: Prayer, while it can be a component of worship, is not synonymous with worship. The idea that prayer = worship and NOTHING ELSE is a man-made tradition of relatively recent origin). We can “pray” (the word means “ask”) to anyone, but we can only worship GOD. When Shakespeare’s Hamlet “prays” to Horatio, he sure isn’t worshipping him, but he IS asking a question.

But just because John or Jane Doe feel perfectly OK without a statue doesn’t mean that I am wrong in having one. John or Jane Doe might feel that only the KJV Bible is “the real thing” but that doesn’t make Ron or Rita Roe wrong if they have an NAB, an NIV, an RSV. . .

Statues and religious works of art are not NEEDED, but they are not PROHIBITED by God. In fact, the Jewish tradition shows that God Himself required statues, and beautiful objects, and costly raiment, for His temple and His worship.

Let’s bring out our cherubim!!

You don’t want them in your church or your house–that’s fine. But don’t go around saying that they shouldn’t be in ANY church or ANY house. Iconoclasts are extremists bent on destruction of what THEY FEEL is “not needed” for THEM.

I will never FORCE you into looking at my statue, beautiful as it is.
The big difference between us is that I don’t NEED my statues to worship God; I find beauty in His inspiration and the works of the hands of His creation but that’s just an ADDITION to the worship that I have for HIM. People who equate statues with “idol”, OTOH, NEED to hate the statues, NEED to hate the people who make or look at them, in order to make themselves feel that they’re RIGHT, and everybody else is WRONG; that their way is GOD’S way, and theirs alone.

It’s such a narrow, petty, joyless, tyrannical, sententious, and, dare I say, UNChristian POV. . .IMO.

 

[Church_Militant]

To me, this is about the dumbest thing that n-Cs ever say to us. There is no worship involved in this since none of this in any way detracts from the worship of God that all of us offer to Him. We simply do NOT worship anyone but God. All this semantic gymnastics are just a waste of time. I’ve more than adequately answered the iconoclastic allegations of those of you who are ignorant of history and don’t know where this heresy really comes. Iconoclasm is fundamentalist Islamic-not Christian at all, so those of you who have issues with icons and statues would make wonderful Talliban.

If Icons and statues are sin then the OT is wrong since God specifically told Moses to make the Brass serpent, told the Jews to put those two statues of Cherubim on the top of the Ark of the Covenant…and then occupied without a problem the temple of Solomon that was adorned with all manner of images and icons all over the place. The 1st commandment simply says: " 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them:" and we are well and truly within that commandment. You people who feel different are doing nothing more than attempting to put us under the law again and we all know what St. Paul said about that sort of thing.

Some of you…like you Spokenword, know better, having come from a Catholic background. I did…even before I returned to the faith. In fact this very allegation is what got me looking deeply into the teachings of the Catholic Church to see if it was true. If it had proved to be true then I had already stated that I would never set foot in another Catholic Church so long as I lived. But it did not. The allegation is patently false and as I began to research deeply the other teachings of the Catholic Church, I found that it was not they that were unBiblical or unChristian, but the teachings of those Protestants and others (whatever you choose to designate yourselves) who had led me astray for over 34 years. To say I was P.O.'d is an understatement, but I have calmed down and written it off to various degrees of ignorance, bias, and outright falsehood. Argue with us 'til hell freezes over…but it does not make you right. I did my homework and I found out what the truth really is…it’s Catholic through and through-Period You’d find that out if you’d open that brain-case of yours and actually look into the real teachings of the Catholic Church as opposed to all the books, tapes, and teachings of people who either don’t know what they’re talking about or are outright lying to you. You will be angry when you get to the bottom of it all…and maybe that is a good thing.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Mickey]

AMEN TO TANTUM ERGO AND AMEN TO CHURCH MILITANT.

THAT OUGHTA JUST ABOUT WRAP UP THIS THREAD.

CHRISTOS ANESTI!
ALITHOS ANESTI!

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Church Militant:

If Icons and statues are sin then the OT is wrong since God specifically told Moses to make the Brass serpent, told the Jews to put those two statues of Cherubim on the top of the Ark of the Covenant…and then occupied without a problem the temple of Solomon that was adorned with all manner of images and icons all over the place. The 1st commandment simply says: " 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them:" and we are well and truly within that commandment. You people who feel different are doing nothing more than attempting to put us under the law again and we all know what St. Paul said about that sort of thing.

Some of you…like you Spokenword, know better, having come from a Catholic background.=============================================================================== You know C. M. I do know better. Gods command is clear.Exodus20:4&5. You shall not make for yourself any graven image,OR ANY LIKENESS of anything above that is in heaven OR that is in the earth beneath,or that is in the water under the earth. YOU SHALL NOT BOW DOWN yourself to them,nor serve them. Did God specifically tell the RCC to make those statues of all the saints? If God did then I rest my case. You say catholics do not bow to statues BUT I beg to differ. Not all do but many do. I was guilty myself. I went into thousands of homes with the Pilgrim Virgin statue and ALL Bowed down in prayer before the statue. Yes I do know better today. God Bless P/s Jesus did not come to change the Law BUT to fulfill it. The 10 commandments have not changed my friend.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Mickey:

AMEN TO TANTUM ERGO AND AMEN TO CHURCH MILITANT.

THAT OUGHTA JUST ABOUT WRAP UP THIS THREAD.

CHRISTOS ANESTI!
ALITHOS ANESTI!

Hi Mickey, NOT SO FAST,THERE IS MORE TO COME. God Bless

 

[Mickey]

SPOKENWORD:

You know C. M. I do know better. Gods command is clear.Exodus20:4&5. You shall not make for yourself any graven image,OR ANY LIKENESS of anything above that is in heaven OR that is in the earth beneath,or that is in the water under the earth. YOU SHALL NOT BOW DOWN yourself to them,nor serve them. Did God specifically tell the RCC to make those statues of all the saints? If God did then I rest my case. You say catholics do not bow to statues BUT I beg to differ. Not all do but many do. I was guilty myself. I went into thousands of homes with the Pilgrim Virgin statue and ALL Bowed down in prayer before the statue. Yes I do know better today. God Bless P/s Jesus did not come to change the Law BUT to fulfill it. The 10 commandments have not changed my friend.

Oh please SW–we’ve heard that before. Exodus 20: 4-5 speaks of graven images of strange gods. That’s a whole lot different than images that honor our Lord.

Now read:

Exodus 25:18

Numbers 21:8

Joshua 3:14

3 Kings 6:29-35

Quite frankly, your A/C rhetoric is quite insulting.

And your winking smiley does not strengthen your argument.

 

[Church_Militant]

SPOKENWORD:

You know C. M. I do know better. Gods command is clear.Exodus20:4&5. You shall not make for yourself any graven image,OR ANY LIKENESS of anything above that is in heaven OR that is in the earth beneath,or that is in the water under the earth. YOU SHALL NOT BOW DOWN yourself to them,nor serve them. Did God specifically tell the RCC to make those statues of all the saints? If God did then I rest my case. You say catholics do not bow to statues BUT I beg to differ. Not all do but many do. I was guilty myself. I went into thousands of homes with the Pilgrim Virgin statue and ALL Bowed down in prayer before the statue. Yes I do know better today. God Bless P/s Jesus did not come to change the Law BUT to fulfill it. The 10 commandments have not changed my friend.

You’re right they haven’t changed…but you ignore the passage that says not to worship… Why are you so obtuse? And since we do not worship them you have no case. You know full well that that translation I have used is accurate and therefore you are using a semantic argument (nothing new at all).

No Catholic bows down TO a statue! That is the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen you state SW. I can’t even believe that you would honestly spout such drivel after having been a Catholic at one time. I was out of the church for over 34 years and even I knew it was wrong…and a simple study of any real Catholic work on this topic would prove the case beyond any question. So get off that horse and let it go because you are wrong beyond all reason. No more tea for you buddy…

I can’t believe that you are this lame. You know from past experience that what you allege is untrue. You know full well that No Catholic is stupid enough to worship anyone but almighty God. I really am ashamed of you that you would fall into such a pack of outright lies. You KNOW better and false witness (another commandment that has not changed!) still applies. Shame on you Man…no kidding.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Mickey:

Oh please SW–we’ve heard that before. Exodus 20: 4-5 speaks of graven images of strange gods. That’s a whole lot different than images that honor our Lord.

Now read:

Exodus 25:18

Numbers 21:8

Joshua 3:14

3 Kings 6:29-35

Quite frankly, your A/C rhetoric is quite insulting.

And your winking smiley does not strengthen your argument.

Hi Mickey, I,m sorry for insulting you. That is not my intent.Truth is what i,m looking for. The act of bowing down to a statue makes it an Idol. God told Moses that the people could look at the serpent and be healed. God never gave permission to go beyond that to venerate the serpent. The Lord wants us to seek His face{PSALM27;8]. Instead many seek the face of Mary,thus distracting from them from fixing their eyes on Jesus and seeking only His face in Heaven. God Bless

 

[Mickey]

"SPOKENWORD:

Hi Mickey, I,m sorry for insulting you. That is not my intent.Truth is what i,m looking for. The act of bowing down to a statue makes it an Idol. God told Moses that the people could look at the serpent and be healed. God never gave permission to go beyond that to venerate the serpent. The Lord wants us to seek His face{PSALM27"]
. Instead many seek the face of Mary,thus distracting from them from fixing their eyes on Jesus and seeking only His face in Heaven. God Bless

But that’s not the Catholic faith you speak of. Perhaps the version you were taught–or perhaps others who are misguided. But here on this forum we know our faith and we don’t need you tell us that we bow down and worship statues. You insult not only me, but everyone else on this site. You apologize and then continue your attack. So then that is your intent–to insult. You are not evangelizing anyone here SW. We are in the fullness of truth. We also seek the truth and we have found it in the Catholic Church. If you are truly seeking the truth, then you will come back home–if not, then at least stop insulting us.

 

[Church_Militant]

"SPOKENWORD:

Hi Mickey, I,m sorry for insulting you. That is not my intent.Truth is what i,m looking for. The act of bowing down to a statue makes it an Idol. God told Moses that the people could look at the serpent and be healed. God never gave permission to go beyond that to venerate the serpent. The Lord wants us to seek His face{PSALM27"]
. Instead many seek the face of Mary,thus distracting from them from fixing their eyes on Jesus and seeking only His face in Heaven. God Bless

Again…semantics and misstatements… There is no act of worship involved… You make a good pharisee though. Your rhetoric is the same old tired drivel, and deep down inside you know better. If you wanted truth you would take us at our word and actually listen to what the Church teaches. You failed to do so when you were a Catholic before (as did I) and now you try to blame the Church for stuff that is not their fault. We’ve talked plenty, but you don’t listen…just like Dave and the rest of the a/Cs on here an don’t try to claim that you’re not or you wouldn’t persist in allegations that we have given clear answers to. I’m not sympathetic to such things at all. You don’t want truth or answers…you want to allege stuff that you think some poor devout Catholic is gonna beleve and leave the faith, Not happenin!

People who want truth ask questions, accept the answers and don’t argue with the facts that are presented. That’s not what you and your fellow a/Cs do.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey:

But that’s not the Catholic faith you speak of. Perhaps the version you were taught–or perhaps others who are misguided. But here on this forum we know our faith and we don’t need you tell us that we bow down and worship statues. You insult not only me, but everyone else on this site. You apologize and then continue your attack. So then that is your intent–to insult. You are not evangelizing anyone here SW. We are in the fullness of truth. We also seek the truth and we have found it in the Catholic Church. If you are truly seeking the truth, then you will come back home–if not, then at least stop insulting us.

BTW, Mary is the mother of God and our mother–so please stop insulting her too!

ps–Ditto what Church Militant says

 

[TNT]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Mickey, I,m sorry for insulting you. …many seek the face of Mary,thus distracting from them from fixing their eyes on Jesus and seeking only His face in Heaven. God Bless

No you aren’t. You’re not sorry at all, sorrow implies repentence. None is visible.

Distracting? Let me see. You wasting time on this site. Well, Do you not see it is a distraction from fixing your eyes on JC. You spend ALL this time on babbling about idols and Mary, distracting yourself from JC. WHAT AN HYPOCRISY!
You spend more time and attention on Mary than most of us do.
BTW
I spend time with my wife. giving her all my attention. I must be distracting myself from JC.
I kiss the picture of my deceased Mother. I am idolizing.

We have no need of convincing a heretic who loves his vocation as a heretic, and digs up straw men.
If you think we idolize Saints,that’s your error, not ours. If you think the whole Catholic universe is lying to you, you are a fool

BTW
** Did you ever find out WHY there are exactly 27 NT books, and who the tyrant was that put this idea as necessary?
**Now there’s a place you could spend some worthwhile time. I’ve possed this to you ad nauseum and you fly right over it. Why,? BECAUSE you cannot answer it TRUTHFULLY, and remain in your heresies. You love heresy. That is what YOU worship.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

TNT:

No you aren’t. You’re not sorry at all, sorrow implies repentence. None is visible.

Distracting? Let me see. You wasting time on this site. Well, Do you not see it is a distraction from fixing your eyes on JC. You spend ALL this time on babbling about idols and Mary, distracting yourself from JC. WHAT AN HYPOCRISY!
You spend more time and attention on Mary than most of us do.
BTW
I spend time with my wife. giving her all my attention. I must be distracting myself from JC.
I kiss the picture of my deceased Mother. I am idolizing.

We have no need of convincing a heretic who loves his vocation as a heretic, and digs up straw men.
If you think we idolize Saints,that’s your error, not ours. If you think the whole Catholic universe is lying to you, you are a fool

BTW
** Did you ever find out WHY there are exactly 27 NT books, and who the tyrant was that put this idea as necessary?
**Now there’s a place you could spend some worthwhile time. I’ve possed this to you ad nauseum and you fly right over it. Why,? BECAUSE you cannot answer it TRUTHFULLY, and remain in your heresies. You love heresy. That is what YOU worship.

Hi TNT, Let me see if I can get out of the water for a while. It seems to be shark infested. P/S Ill be looking for the lost books.

 

[TNT]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi TNT, Let me see if I can get out of the water for a while. It seems to be shark infested.

HUMAN ALLIGATORS ! Sometimes known as Green Berets. JUST AS DANGEROUS ON THE LAND.

BTW.
“FLYING OVER” …AGAIN?

 

[oudave]

Hi
If the Catholic church want’s to shed this supposed lie then why doesn’t the Pope tell everyone to stop kneeling before statues? I mean it seems to be a real problem with all these prots thinking you all worship idols. I mean if your not worshiping statues then why make it appear as such. I know it sounds easy, but I think it will work. By the way I’m praying for the Pope, he doesn’t look well.
In Him and only Him, Dave.

 

[VociMike]

oudave:

Hi
If the Catholic church want’s to shed this supposed lie then why doesn’t the Pope tell everyone to stop kneeling before statues? I mean it seems to be a real problem with all these prots thinking you all worship idols. I mean if your not worshiping statues then why make it appear as such. I know it sounds easy, but I think it will work. By the way I’m praying for the Pope, he doesn’t look well.
In Him and only Him, Dave.

Because it won’t end there. People will come up with countless other areas where the Church should change “for appearances”. It would become open season for ideas to “improve” the Church.

Oh, and thank you for your prayers for John Paul II. I think God is rewarding him by allowing him to share in great measure with the sufferings of Christ. Non-Christians, and even many Christians, would think that was a crazy notion, but I think the Church would back what I’m suggesting.

 

[Philthy]

bjcros:

But you are not praying to your bed when you kneel down to pray. You also are not praying to your Mother on Mother’s Day(At least I hope not). You should compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges. However, you go to Mary in prayer. Prayer is worship. Therefore, you are worshiping Mary.

Here’s your logic:

All prayer is worship
Catholics pray to Mary
Therefore Catholics worship Mary

Here’s the problem with your logic:
Your first premise is false and therefore we must regard your conclusion as false also. You have imposed an equality between prayer and worship. Where did you get this idea that prayer is exclusively worship? I believe that is a tradition. For Catholics prayer is not always worship. Any time we communicate to a Saint we do it through a process which is also called prayer, but it is not worship. Prayer includes(but is not limited to) the process of communication to anyone who’s earthly life has ended and who now resides in heaven. It’s not that big of a deal really.

Phil

 

[TobyLue]

To CM and TE.

I know you have told SW and OuD many times that Catholics do not worship statues nor worship Mary and have explained the Catholic position. But they insist Catholics still do. Maybe one thing that we have not taken into consideration is that SW and OuD may be, uh, may be (since they claim Catholics worship Mary and statues) that they are,uh, GOD? Have they been able to see into your hearts and they have determined that no matter what you say, they tell us that you are lying? Can SW and OuD actually see into your hearts? Maybe you should start bowing to them, since they INSIST THEY KNOW what is in your hearts. Reminds me of little kids. “No I don’t?” “Yes you do!” “No, Catholics don’t worship Mary and statues!” “Yes you do! Yes you do! Nya, nya, nya!”

I’m curious, how do non-Catholics honor Mary? Or do they tell Jesus, who loves his mother very, very much….“Eh, she means nothing to me big J. You da man!”.
I admit that some years ago I felt the Blessed Mother had no place in my life, until one day in prayer I discerned Jesus asking me. “Why have you abandoned my mother?”