'catholics "worsip Mary"

[RobHom]

AH - tradition v. scripture. So if I pray to you right now, you will know what I am saying?

Hmmmm, would that have been an attempt at an “obfuscatory non sequitur”?

 

[willingheart]

Nah - just rattlin’ your cage. But we could venture off on a sola scriptura debate, which I guess is what it comes down to. Do we believe in only what the Bible tells us, or do we follow tradition as well? (Just because the early Christians did it, doesn’t mean they were right.) And there are lots of Catholic “traditions” that I could ask about. You know, I just want to try to understand some of the Catholic practices and doctrines better. I am thinking about the body of Christ comments, and will pray for understanding on this. I still don’t think I would ever pray to or through Mary, though. Jesus gives me access to Himself, and that seems enough.

 

[estesbob]

. I still don’t think I would ever pray to or through Mary, though. Jesus gives me access to Himself, and that seems enough.

This would make a lot more sense to me it Protestannts didnt turn around and ask the living to pray for them. Why? If Jesus gives you acess to him why use even the living as intermediaries?

 

[RobHom]

Nah - just rattlin’ your cage.

OK…

But we could venture off on a sola scriptura debate, which I guess is what it comes down to. Do we believe in only what the Bible tells us, or do we follow tradition as well? (Just because the early Christians did it, doesn’t mean they were right.)

Ahhh, but that’s one to tread likely with, lest you be drawn in to having to explain why, if the at all possible, how it is that there are so, so, so many “different Christian denominations” outside the Catholic Church, and how is it that they all differ theologically as to what the Bible tells them…all the while the majority of them appear to embrace “sola scriptura” and or the other solas.

But even the Bible tells us to hold fast to “traditions”…as here:

**2 Thessalonians 2

14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
**

If one is to believe that the Bible is all there is, then fails to abide by the word of the Bible, is that not an oxymoron?

Who of us is to say that the early Christians were not right?

And there are lots of Catholic "traditions" that I could ask about. You know, I just want to try to understand some of the Catholic practices and doctrines better.  I am thinking about the body of Christ comments, and will pray for understanding on this.  I still don't think I would ever pray to or through Mary, though.  Jesus gives me access to Himself, and that seems enough.

Stick around and ask your questions. If you truly seek to understand, you will receive the information that will give you the understanding. I can accept fully that you may not agree, but I can also accept that you can “understand”. There are probably tenets of your faith that I may not agree with, but I can understand them…

 

[ferdie]

Prayer is communication with anybody . . .only in ‘recent times’ have a few people tried to narrow it down to ‘communication with God alone’. . .

The fact (and it is a fact) that the earliest Christians, being persecuted and living in the catacombs, scratched out prayers to their friends who had been martyred, reveals that the earliest Christians believed that prayer to the saints in Heaven was authentic Christian teaching. . .

This is an inscription in the catacomb of St. Priscilla on the Via Balaria. In the inscription there is a figure of a dove of a fish figure of man kneeling in prayer.

ANATOLIVS FILIO BENEMERENTI FECIT QUI VIXIT ANNIS VII MENSIS VII, DIE BUS XX. ISPIRITVS TVVS BENE REQUIES CAT IN DEO PETAS AS PRO SORORE TVO

'Anatolivs erected this for his well deserving son who live seven years, seven months and twenty days. May thy soul find rest in God. Pray for thy sister’

It is estimated that the catacombs contain 6 million bodies of martyrs and christians interrred there until the 5th century. The catacombs are extant witness to the tradition of the Church from its earlier time. There you find the living proof of the antiquity of the belief in the 7 sacraments, primacy of Peter, prayers to BVM and the saints, the Holy Eucharist, purgatory, etc.

Now if our separated brethrens really want to go back to the way of the early church, all they have to do is visit the catacombs and see how the early christians did it.

 

[willingheart]

I’d have to work to find a citation for you, but one reason is “wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, I am there.” And the other reason has to do with praying in accord, and that’s the one I’d have to work on. Also, Jesus modeled praying for one another for us when he prayed for his disciples and for all believers in the garden.

I guess praying with living people doesn’t seem the same to me as praying to deceased people. Is praying to Mary or a saint different from praying to say, your dead uncle? Is that also effective prayer? I just think that it takes the focus off of God, and for some people, the difference between praying to and worshipping may be a fine line. For me, it’s better left alone.

 

[willingheart]

OK…

Ahhh, but that’s one to tread likely with, lest you be drawn in to having to explain why, if the at all possible, how it is that there are so, so, so many “different Christian denominations” outside the Catholic Church, and how is it that they all differ theologically as to what the Bible tells them…all the while the majority of them appear to embrace “sola scriptura” and or the other solas.

Sadly, there are many churches out there that call themselves “Christian” but that have distorted or corrupted
God’s Truth. There are also many differences among mainstream Protestant churches, but they are not theological, more along the lines of “convictions” (like whether it’s ok to drink) or “preferences” (do you allow a praise band or only organ music in church). These differences don’t amount to theological differences, however, and they don’t change the central message of the Church that is salvaton through Jesus Christ crucified and risen. This is the same central message of the Catholic Church, isn’t it? Look, I don’t think my NOT praying to Mary is going to offend God. I’m just not convinced the opposite is true.

 

[RobHom]

Sadly, there are many churches out there that call themselves “Christian” but that have distorted or corrupted God’s Truth.

On that we can certainly agree.

There are also many differences among mainstream Protestant churches, but they are not theological, more along the lines of “convictions” (like whether it’s ok to drink) or “preferences” (do you allow a praise band or only organ music in church). These differences don’t amount to theological differences,

Semantics… Convictions are based on theology. Otherwise the only possibility would be “ego”. I am aware of some of that, but I think for the most part …it is theology differentiation, or at a minimum “quasi-theological”.

however, and they don’t change the central message of the Church that is salvaton through Jesus Christ crucified and risen.

Ahh, but at some point they do. Many declare one form of baptism or the other is the only way, and others claim its unnecessary, while others embrace OSAS, and other things. Its the how, why and wherefore arguments that tend to distort the central message.

This is the same central message of the Catholic Church, isn’t it?

Yes, as it has always been, though there is and always has been just a little more to it theologically…

Look, I don’t think my NOT praying to Mary is going to offend God.

Its not a requirement. So, OK.

I’m just not convinced the opposite is true.

That may well be, and frankly none of us will know until we die, but the fact remains…we Catholics believe in “intercessory prayer” which is Biblical, and is well documented in the writings of the ECF’s, an scrolls have been found…one of the better known is the Sub Tuum… You might find it interesting:

nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Sub-tuum-praesidium

stteresa-avila.org/praesidium.html

Praying to Mary for her intercession is not a new thing by any means.

 

[willingheart]

Ahh, but at some point they do. Many declare one form of baptism or the other is the only way, and others claim its unnecessary, while others embrace OSAS, and other things. Its the how, why and wherefore arguments that tend to distort the central message.

OSAS? I don’t know what that is, but the form of baptism doesn’t matter. Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. The thief on the cross had no opportunity for baptism at all (or confession or penance) and yet he was assured that day to be with Jesus in Paradise, just because he believed. Preferences to sprinkle or immerse, adults v. babies still don’t change the salvation message. God made it so simple, but we just seem to want to complicate it all the time. Just like Paul told the Galatians - why do you want to go backwards and imprison yourselves in the law? (My paraphrase.)

Not to hijack the thread. We should go back to Mary.

 

[RobHom]

Not to hijack the thread. We should go back to Mary.

OK Sending you a PM…

 

[elvisman]

I’d have to work to find a citation for you, but one reason is “wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, I am there.” And the other reason has to do with praying in accord, and that’s the one I’d have to work on. Also, Jesus modeled praying for one another for us when he prayed for his disciples and for all believers in the garden.

I guess praying with living people doesn’t seem the same to me as praying to deceased people. Is praying to Mary or a saint different from praying to say, your dead uncle? Is that also effective prayer? I just think that it takes the focus off of God, and for some people, the difference between praying to and worshipping may be a fine line. For me, it’s better left alone.

Hopefully, this will put to rest the belief that prayer is worship or adoration:
Merriam-Webster’s 11th Collegiate Dictionary:

---

Pray
Main Entry: pray
Pronunciation: prā
**Function: verb **
**Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin *precari, *from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frāga question, frāgān to ask, Sanskrit pŗcchati he asks
Date: 13th century

**transitive verb **
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE — often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
***intransitive verb ***
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

---

Hence, when I ask you a question or for a favor, I am praying for your response.
The question you must ask yourself is, “Do I believe that those who left this world in Jesus’ favor and grace are alive or are they dead.” If they’re just dead then the hope of the resurrection is a farce and Jesus was a liar.

However, if they are alive eternally - as Jesus promised - then asking them - as well as our those who are still on this earth - for prayers and supplication is not only right but we are told to do so:
"…pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful." James 5:16.

 

[willingheart]

Sorry, Elvis, still doesn’t convince me. Plus your definition contradicts your purpose in citing it:

Hopefully, this will put to rest the belief that prayer is worship or adoration:
Merriam-Webster’s 11th Collegiate Dictionary:
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving.

I believe wholeheartedly in the resurrection and in life eternal. I’m just not convinced that anyone but God can hear my prayers. And I still say that praying to anyone but God takes the focus off of Him, the only One worthy of our worship. In prayer, I seek communion with God and my prayers include praise, confession and thankgiving as well as intercession. Why would I address this to anyone but God?

 

[elvisman]

Sorry, Elvis, still doesn’t convince me. Plus your definition contradicts your purpose in citing it:

Hopefully, this will put to rest the belief that prayer is worship or adoration:

Merriam-Webster’s 11th Collegiate Dictionary:
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving.

I believe wholeheartedly in the resurrection and in life eternal. I’m just not convinced that anyone but God can hear my prayers. And I still say that praying to anyone but God takes the focus off of Him, the only One worthy of our worship. In prayer, I seek communion with God and my prayers include praise, confession and thankgiving as well as intercession. Why would I address this to anyone but God?
Contradicts? I think not.

willingheart -
I believe that this is (as well as some of your other posts) a clear-cut case of, "There is truly none so blind as they who refuse to see."

In citing the one definition that you did - you ignored the other 3:

- ENTREAT, IMPLORE — often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>

- to get or bring by praying
***intransitive verb ***

- to make a request in a humble manner

I could have left out the last definition, but chose to keep it in so you could see that your definition of prayer is not even considered to be the 1st listed - or the 2nd.

If you have ever asked anybody to pray for you - or if you have prayed for anybody - you have done what you claim is wrong.
That, my friend is hypocrisy.

 

[willingheart]

If you have ever asked anybody to pray for you - or if you have prayed for anybody - you have done what you claim is wrong.

That, my friend is hypocrisy.

What? I never said it was wrong to pray for someone or to ask someone to pray for you. I only question the practice of praying to dead people.

And I never disagreed with any of your definitions of prayer, either. Only point out that one of them specifically mentions prayer as a means of giving adoration and worhip to God. I agree with that also, which is why I direct my prayers only to Him.

 

[elvisman]

What? I never said it was wrong to pray for someone or to ask someone to pray for you. I only question the practice of praying to dead people.

And I never disagreed with any of your definitions of prayer, either. Only point out that one of them specifically mentions prayer as a means of giving adoration and worhip to God. I agree with that also, which is why I direct my prayers only to Him.

Now you’re back-peddling. Here is what you said:

---

Post #92 - Sorry, Elvis, still doesn’t convince me. Plus your definition contradicts your purpose in citing it:
Merriam-Webster’s 11th Collegiate Dictionary:
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving.

---

Plus - you never addressed the question:
**“Do I believe that those who left this world in Jesus’ favor and grace are alive or are they dead.” **
Apparently, by your statement below, you believe they are simply dead:

---

Post #94 - “I only question the practice of praying to dead people.”

---

**This means that Jesus is a liar because he said many times in Scripture that those who believed in him and did the will of his Father would have eternal life. **
Matt. 25:46, John 3:14-16, John 6:40, 44, 47, 54 58, to name a few verses.
Do you really believe he is a liar?

 

[willingheart]

Matt. 25:46, John 3:14-16, John 6:40, 44, 47, 54 58, to name a few verses.

OK so you caught me being semantically careless. Of course Jesus is not a liar. And of course believers have eternal life with Jesus. What I meant was I’m not convinced I should or can pray to those who have crossed over from this life to the next, other than to Jesus himself. By “dead” I meant those who are no longer alive on earth.

 

[Bill_Pick]

OK so you caught me being semantically careless. Of course Jesus is not a liar. And of course believers have eternal life with Jesus. What I meant was I’m not convinced I should or can pray to those who have crossed over from this life to the next, other than to Jesus himself. By “dead” I meant those who are no longer alive on earth.

SO WE ARE NOT TO PRAY TO PEOPLE IN HEAVEN Intercessory Prayer of Saints
Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 – angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 – those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God
*Saints dead, prayer is necromancy (Dt 18:10-11)
Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events
Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under altar want earthly vindication
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 – the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 Prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 whoever loves God must love his brother
1 Cor 12:21 - parts of Christ’s Body cannot say to other parts, “I do not need you”.

 

[roselily]

P.S. Here’s another point to ponder - I once heard a man speak about his love for Mary and devotion to her. He was sharing about another’s way of explaining to his Protestant friend about our ways of honoring her. His friend said that he’d had such a deep** fear of God **that it was easier for him to open his heart to God’s Mother than it was to open it to God for fear of offending God, so all his little loves he gave to her instead. He talked to her, prayed to her, did all sorts of stuff to honor her. Once when he was lying ill and at death’s door, he had a “vision” while in delirium from fever. In it he saw all his little loves for Mary gathered up like flowers by the angels and carried to Mary herself and given to God at His throne where they were even more magnified. God spoke to Him and said something like this “what you did for her, you did for Me. Love her always.” He never doubted his devotion to her again.

Peace,

Gail

 

[Jean_1958]

** If any one praises Mary and respects her, we do not mind. But if any one will bow down to Mary or her statue or make any statue and keep it in any house, that will become idol worship.**

So, does that mean it is wrong for me to make a statue of someone else, say george Washington, for example, and have that in my house too? Would I then be worshipng George Washington?

I can see it being worship is one has a statue of Mary in their house and they kiss it, pray on it, and technically replace her with God. But if someone jus wants to have a statue in their house simply because they admire and respect Mary and want to honor her then there’s nothing wrong with that.

Jean

 

[jeanne71350]

I have been a Catholic all of my life and I have never heard the Church tell its people that we must worship Mary. For that charge to be true, then please provide the genuine Catholic Church document which states that Catholics are to worship Mary? Did you ever think to go to the source for the answer to this one?

We do not worship Mary. We honor her and pray to her to interceed for us to her Son. The only person worthy of worship is the Holy Trinity (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit)

The same thing goes with the saints. We pray to them to ask for their intercession because we believe they are close to God.