Catholics Would u go to church w\o the real presence teaching Eucharist

[Avila123]

Thankyou, I get the picture now. Sorry if I seemed nosy. I believe you when you say His plan for you was tailor made especially for you. I sense your relationship with God is sincere. Do you think it is at all possible that God may have a tailor made plan for an individual that does not at all encompass the Catholic Church but rather involves a relationship within the so called “Protestant” realm of fellowship?

I believe that God has a special tailor made plan for every single person because we are all His beloved adopted children. Whether that plan is fulfilled depends upon our freewill and co-operation, and he comes to us wherever we are. Relationships grow over time and with effort on our part, so there are people who have a personal relationship with God who are outside the Catholic Church.

For anyone who may wonder why I am not finishing this post with a message about coming home to the Catholic Church, it is because I am simply answering the question that was asked.

 

[Padres1969]

The “real presence” doesn’t come about because of what one believes. It happens as a result of valid ordination of the priesthood in apostolic succession.

Lutherans and Anglicans lost that succession.

AND
​

Considering, Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 , this Greek word διχοστασίας dichostasia = division / dissension / factions /sedition (is the same word in both Rom 16:17 And Gal 5:19…) the consequences for dividing from the Catholic Church is “I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.”

IOW *** once someone knows*** the truth of the Catholic Church, and either divides from, or won’t return to unity, and remains in division from the Catholic Church won’t be saved.

Ever wonder where the phrase came from
“outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation”

For some history, all properly referenced,
The first 4 centuries of the Church (condensed ). It’s been Catholic (in writing) from the beginning

#27 ]

Padres,

“*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;”

“Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Those sins carry huge consequences for souls in those sins

The big issues Padres, are the consequences to one’s soul, for what is mentioned above.

I’m just passing on information.

Trust me, if I thought I was a heretic or schismatic from Christ’s Church I would remedy that as quickly as possible.

 

[steve_b]

if a person can’t receive the Eucharist at mass on Sunday, because of being in mortal sin, then at least they go to mass and celebrate the mass. They don’t heap mortal sin on top of mortal sin by deliberately missing mass

The question then should be why is it a mortal sin to deliberately miss mass on Sunday, even once, Unless of course there is a valid reason like sickness etc. And when did that idea start?

While this following scripture from Hebrews, doesn’t mention
• Mass
• Sunday
• Eucharist
• Mortal sin for deliberately missing Mass

Anybody can see what is being described. What they are doing when they meet, and what Day it is that they meet, and that there is disastrous consequences for that person if they deliberately fail to meet on “the Day” once they become knowledgeable of the truth. IOW it’s already a huge sin to not follow this command

IOW, based on the consequences mentioned, this is not a suggestion to do, but a command to do……or else

Heb 10: (all emphasis mine)
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment,and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Unpacking that

• The sanctuary = the place of the sacrifice, the altar,
• deliberate Failure to meet on the Day, is already a sin with huge consequences
• “the Day” = the LORD’S DAY / Sunday/ the Day Our Lord Resurrected
• “sacrifice for sin”, & “blood of the covenant” = the words Our Lord spoke instituting the Eucharist Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24

i.e. They are celebrating the Mass on Sunday.

How do we know this?

the resurrection of Jesus, took place on Sunday. When his disciples walked with Jesus on that day of resurrection to Emmaus, Luke 24:35 They recognized Jesus in the breaking of the bread, the celebration of the Eucharist. That was the 1st mass on Sunday

THAT’s why those who deliberately fail to celebrate Mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday after being given the knowledge of truth,

The following reality takes place. Not my words but from Hebrews.

• there no longer remains for Them, a sacrifice for sin ◦ They Spurn the Son of God
• They outrage the spirit of grace
• a fearful prospect of judgement awaits Them
• and a fury of fire will consume these adversaries

Does that sound like it’s only a suggestion to attend Mass on Sunday, or a command?

Does it sound like a venial sin to deliberately miss Mass on Sunday or a mortal sin?

One only has to look at those consequences mentioned. Those consequences DESCRIBE HELL for one who dies in this mortal sin

Also

From the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”
Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: “This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.”

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own
pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

BTW: Grave sin = mortal sin, they are synonymous terms.

 

[Wannano]

I believe that God has a special tailor made plan for every single person because we are all His beloved adopted children. Whether that plan is fulfilled depends upon our freewill and co-operation, and he comes to us wherever we are. Relationships grow over time and with effort on our part, so there are people who have a personal relationship with God who are outside the Catholic Church.

For anyone who may wonder why I am not finishing this post with a message about coming home to the Catholic Church, it is because I am simply answering the question that was asked.

And in my opinion you did a wonderful job of answering. You are truly displaying the love Christ said would distinguish His followers from the world.

 

[otjm]

What I will add though, is that the cohesion you speak of in the Catholic faith is unfortunately lessened as so many Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence.

-Ernie-

I am not sure of the source of your statement, but I suspect it is an older polling, which used questions creating potentially significant miss-information.

I don’t even recall how long ago the poll was made; but it sent the comment flying around the internet that Catholics did not believe in the Real Presence.

What the poll showed is that we have a lot of poorly catechized Catholics, who could not identify correctly the theological word for the change from bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

What was not asked was if they believe Christ is really present in the Eucharist. Thus the results of the poll do not show what is purported, but rather that a goodly number of Catholics are not well educated in terminology; left unanswered was what their belief actual is.

And keep in mind that the term transubstantiation did not occur until some time in the 11th century. So practically all Catholics, prior to when the term came into use, would likely have answered “wrong” according to the poll (taken in the 20th century).

For anyone needing more information, this is a matter upon which Jimmy akin has responded.

 

[otjm]

I believe that God has a special tailor made plan for every single person because we are all His beloved adopted children. Whether that plan is fulfilled depends upon our freewill and co-operation, and he comes to us wherever we are. Relationships grow over time and with effort on our part, so there are people who have a personal relationship with God who are outside the Catholic Church.

For anyone who may wonder why I am not finishing this post with a message about coming home to the Catholic Church, it is because I am simply answering the question that was asked.

I like your analogy of God to a tailor. He is also a God more than willing to rip out seams and sew again, as He so honors our free will and is so desirous of our sanctity, that if we do not necessarily follow that plan, He will modify his plans and provide us with a new one.

And that is from our spiritual director in the seminary, when many of us who felt
God’s leading to go there, came to the point of doing something else.

 

[meltzerboy]

Catholics are taught the “the real presence” communion Eucharist.

Would u go to church w/o this teaching?

There are thousands of churches every Sunday performing this ceremony without any “real evidence” or result.

Catholic Belief and faith do not require evidence of spirituality impartation

Non Catholics recognized this ceremony as a symbol

What would be regarded as ‘real evidence’ and what ‘result’ would you expect? Yes, Protestants have recognized the ceremony as symbolic and Jews and Muslims do not recognize the ceremony at all. But what does this have to do with Catholics who do believe in transubstantiation and would therefore REQUIRE the ceremony?

 

[ConfusedLucy]

Sometimes in Catholic parishes there is no homily, but there are scriptural readings, and also the Catholic Mass (or various forms of Divine Liturgy of the eastern Catholics) is loaded with scriptural references. I suppose that being based upon scripture could seem empty if there was no understanding of it.

I think a lot of people really believe the cliche that Catholics don’t do the Bible, I have been putting a few people right on how much scripture is present in the mass.

However despite this a lot of people do believe you can just read the Bible at home and try to live a Christian life with church being optional. I was even called a hypocrite for going to church despite not having any affinity for my fellow parishioners.

 

[steve_b]

Trust me, if I thought I was a heretic or schismatic from Christ’s Church I would remedy that as quickly as possible.

Understand, I’m Just giving information. What anyone does with it is up to them.

John Henry Newman, while still a Protestant, said the following statement.

“to be deep in history is to cease being a Protestant”. from #199, scroll up to the top to see other subjects

When Jesus prayer for His Church that He established on Peter is

In Context

There is to be ZERO division.

As those references (from scripture and ECF’s) I posted previously teach, ***once someone knows ***their actual circumstances, then they also know the consequences of division from His Church become real for them.

 

[Vico]

I think a lot of people really believe the cliche that Catholics don’t do the Bible, I have been putting a few people right on how much scripture is present in the mass.

However despite this a lot of people do believe you can just read the Bible at home and try to live a Christian life with church being optional. I was even called a hypocrite for going to church despite not having any affinity for my fellow parishioners.

It is always a puzzle to hear about say-at-homes avoiding public worship without a health problem or other grave reason, since group activity it is given in the New Testament: scripture reading, corporate prayer, singing psalms, hymns, and the preaching God’s Word.

• Matthew 18:20 … two or three are gathered in my name, …
• Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16, St. Paul says that singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs mark the worship of God’s people. (Historically Psalms are Jewish hymns, also the New Testament shows that the early Church sang hymns.)
• Luke 22:19 - Do this in memory of me (Lord’s Supper).
• I Timothy 2:1, - practice corporate prayer.
• I Timothy 4:13 - public reading of Scripture is mandated
• II Timothy 4:2, - preach the Word.
• Acts 20:7 - The Lord’d Day is the first day of the week, when they break bread.

Scriptures in the Mass

catholicbible101.com/scriptureinthemass.htm

 

[Della]

I’m not too sure about that but I know they believe that you don’t need to go to church to be Christian but if it means being supported by fellow Christians and hearing sermons that support their Christian journeys it is a very beneficial thing. I guess all Christians should believe “when two or more of you are gathered in my name” whether or not they also believe in the sacraments.

And their gathering together to worship, as they understand it, is a very good thing–it’s just that they are depriving themselves of all they could have–not that they know that, of course. They are not responsible for their ignorance, having been brought up to believe that what they have is all they need. In some cases, it may be all they need–and there are millions who have to rely on what they can get from the faith communities sans the Eucharist. It’s just odd that they take one part of Scripture seriously–gathering together, and other parts not seriously–receiving the Eucharist. Still, most have no idea they’re doing anything like that, still, that’s what they’re doing.

Sadly most of them have told me Catholic massses feel spiritually empty to them. I guess if they found a Catholic parish with good community and homily’s they could in time grow to understand the Eucharist.

It’s not spiritually empty, it’s emotionally empty–especially for those who have no idea about the Mass, what parts are meant for what and why they are celebrated. They expect songs that move their hearts, not their heads, prayers for things they’re used to praying for, and sermons that take the place of anything else that might have been included, such as holy communion. Many such faith communities only receive their form of holy communion once a month, or at the pastor’s discretion, which may not be even that frequent. In a nutshell, they don’t know what they’re missing and they feel like they’re on alien soil at Mass, especially if they’ve been taught it’s idolatry. I feel so badly for such souls–especially since I used to be one of them.

 

[Padres1969]

Understand, I’m Just giving information. What anyone does with it is up to them.

John Henry Newman, while still a Protestant, said the following statement.

“to be deep in history is to cease being a Protestant”. from #199, scroll up to the top to see other subjects

When Jesus prayer for His Church that He established on Peter is

In Context

There is to be ZERO division.

As those references (from scripture and ECF’s) I posted previously teach, ***once someone knows ***their actual circumstances, then they also know the consequences of division from His Church become real for them.

Funny, it was getting deep into history that led me to repudiate the Roman Catholic Church. Guess Newman and I took something different from history.

That said, I agree with your basic premise of John 17, though what it means to be “one” and to truly have “division” I suspect we disagree on.

 

[steve_b]

Funny, it was getting deep into history that led me to repudiate the Roman Catholic Church. Guess Newman and I took something different from history.

Only one then was going by actual history
P:

That said, I agree with your basic premise of John 17, though what it means to be “one” and to truly have “division” I suspect we disagree on.

said again with a bit more emphasis

Just giving information,

You know the book of Romans is written to the Church of Rome, right?

The same Church pope Francis is over, 2000 years later, 266th successor to St Peter.

The same Church Ignatius of Antioch bishop from ~69 a.d. to ~107 a.d. says holds the presidency.

Paul said
Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 , this Greek word διχοστασίας dichostasia = division / dissension / factions /sedition (is the same word in both Rom 16:17 And Gal 5:19…) the consequences for dividing from the Catholic Church is “I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.”

open this link on “division” διχοστασίας , look at the definition. Those words identify exactly what is meant by “division”

And there is no question what Church is there in scripture, that the apostles are building that Jesus established with Peter as the leader over all. The Church has been Catholic from the 1st century. The English word Catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole. catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means

Acts 9:31 the church throughout all ἐκκλησία,καθ’,ὅλης ,τῆς ,Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…" = the Kataholos Church.

all internal links in the following link, are operational and proof is properly referenced for historical accuracy #27 ]

Paul has warned in those passages above, and warned multiple times, DO NOT DIVIDE from the Church***, because once someone knows*** this truth of the Catholic Church, and either divides from it, or won’t return to unity, and remains in division from the Catholic Church Paul says they won’t be going to heaven… iow they aren’t saved, and will be going to hell.

Today

Can someone say AWWW that’s just Paul, shaw:
It’s scripture, so The HS had to give him that to teach.

BTW, That’s where the phrase came from
“outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation”

846

So

Obviously people were causing divisions in and from the Church from the beginning. And it has been consistently condemned… Clement of Rome, 3rd bishop of Rome after Peter, ALSO wrote to the Corinthians condemning their sedition going on between their clergy. First Epistle

as an aside, John hasn’t written Revelations yet at the time of Clement’s letter.

 

[zab]

I hope this thread moves soon. It doesn’t belong in the “Traditional Catholicism” forum. Without the teaching of the Real Presence, it would not be Traditional Catholicism.

 

[Padres1969]

Only one then was going by actual history

Well I mean if you want to besmirch Newman like that

As a Catholic university trained historian by trade I know what I went by.

 

[steve_b]

Well I mean if you want to besmirch Newman like that

nice try
Padres:

As a Catholic university trained historian by trade I know what I went by.

I’ve got degrees as well. As a result of those degrees, as you can see, I give references properly referenced, to the answers I give.

If someone disagrees, I take no offense. It’s not me they disagree with but my references.

 

[Padres1969]

nice try

I’ve got degrees as well. As a result of those degrees, as you can see, I give references properly referenced, to the answers I give.

If someone disagrees, I take no offense. It’s not me they disagree with but my references.

Well I’ve never seen any of Newman’s references so I’ll have to take a look. I’m sure it would make for an interesting debate.

 

[steve_b]

Well I’ve never seen any of Newman’s references so I’ll have to take a look. I’m sure it would make for an interesting debate.

newmanreader.org/index.html

 

[ConfusedLucy]

It is always a puzzle to hear about say-at-homes avoiding public worship without a health problem or other grave reason, since group activity it is given in the New Testament: scripture reading, corporate prayer, singing psalms, hymns, and the preaching God’s Word.

• Matthew 18:20 … two or three are gathered in my name, …
• Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16, St. Paul says that singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs mark the worship of God’s people. (Historically Psalms are Jewish hymns, also the New Testament shows that the early Church sang hymns.)
• Luke 22:19 - Do this in memory of me (Lord’s Supper).
• I Timothy 2:1, - practice corporate prayer.
• I Timothy 4:13 - public reading of Scripture is mandated
• II Timothy 4:2, - preach the Word.
• Acts 20:7 - The Lord’d Day is the first day of the week, when they break bread.

Scriptures in the Mass

catholicbible101.com/scriptureinthemass.htm

I suppose people have access to more than they used to such as online faith communities, podcasts and livestreams. A lot of my friends don’t see the point in my attending church where I don’t have much of a relationship with the others, I explain I am there to receive the Eucharist which you can’t just download from the internet or receive in the post. To be fair it doesn’t always feel like a group activity to me.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

And their gathering together to worship, as they understand it, is a very good thing–it’s just that they are depriving themselves of all they could have–not that they know that, of course. They are not responsible for their ignorance, having been brought up to believe that what they have is all they need. In some cases, it may be all they need–and there are millions who have to rely on what they can get from the faith communities sans the Eucharist. It’s just odd that they take one part of Scripture seriously–gathering together, and other parts not seriously–receiving the Eucharist. Still, most have no idea they’re doing anything like that, still, that’s what they’re doing.

It’s not spiritually empty, it’s emotionally empty–especially for those who have no idea about the Mass, what parts are meant for what and why they are celebrated. They expect songs that move their hearts, not their heads, prayers for things they’re used to praying for, and sermons that take the place of anything else that might have been included, such as holy communion. Many such faith communities only receive their form of holy communion once a month, or at the pastor’s discretion, which may not be even that frequent. In a nutshell, they don’t know what they’re missing and they feel like they’re on alien soil at Mass, especially if they’ve been taught it’s idolatry. I feel so badly for such souls–especially since I used to be one of them.

I think a lot us struggle to realize the difference between spiritual and emotional experiences. I think if these people could somehow instantly develop an understanding of the Eucharist then they would make the sacrifices to attend Catholic mass but that’s probably not going to happen to most people.