Catholics Would u go to church w\o the real presence teaching Eucharist

[steve_b]

No need to be facetious.

How is It, I quote you and I’m sarcastic?
D:

And you know how many make it to heaven. I’d like to know how you know the numbers that are/aren’t there?

Jesus is speaking, both times. Telling us in advance what’s to come

Matthew 7:13-14 ,

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

**Luke 13:23-28 **,
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth,"

Did Jesus correct the questioner(s) about only a few are saved? No. He validated their point.

He ought to know then, how many are saved, since He’s the one doing all the judging.
D:

You entirely missed the point–I hope not deliberately. I wrote that many people are as ignorant of religion as those living in the bush. Indeed, most moderns in our well-populated cities have less religion that those living in the bush. No matter what information they have at their fingertips, if they don’t know they need it, they won’t bother looking for it.

And Here’s my post that you answered #95
I’m showing people don’t get an automatic ignorance pass, especially given the ease of gaining information today .
D:

Therefore, we must evangelize. So, the onus is more on us than on them. Therefore, ***if *****you and I aren’t doing our part to make people aware **of their need of God, God will hold us responsible. I think that’s what we ought to be more concerned about than how many people have access to information.

I see that as a distinction without a difference.
I never said we shouldn’t evangelize.

 

[PJM]

I may be wrong but I think being taught a concept and then to have virtually everyone around you not take that concept seriously is worse than not being taught the concept at all.

Lucy my friend, it’s not merely a concept. It is OUR GOD"S Truth:thumbsup:

Because the Real Presence" IS Really, Truly and substantially Present; our God is truly in our MIDST. Not a sign, not a symbol BUT Jesus IN PERSON

The fact that not all who attend Catholic Mass, are able to recognize that FACT, in no way lessons the significance of that FACT for those of us blessed and able to know, love and serve our God in the very manner He desires.

Continued Blessings
Patrick

 

[PJM]

My contention was that most Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence. Studies have shown that to be true although one could argue they are old studies. I haven’t seen any more recent studies (post 2013) that depicted a greater % of Catholics now believing in the Real Presence. And in my mind if a person is baptized a Catholic then they should be included in any study of whether Catholics believe. The Church needs to look in the mirror and be held accountable for their faithful being “fallen-away”. To take responsibility for one’s failures is the only way to rectify the issue.

I absolutely agree. Post Vatican II Catechesis often failed in its mission to TEACH THE TOTAL CATHOLIC FAITH, and the pole results are very likely correct.

BUT very much has been done in more recent times to correct this situation. I personally think that reverting to pre -Vatican II changes would be extremely helpful in Catechesis on the Real Presence.

By adoring Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, that in and of itself, shows a profound belief in the Real Presence. My reference to genuflecting, to be fair, was thinking about my former parish which had a separate small chapel that housed the tabernacle. You had no choice but to pass the chapel in order to enter the main sanctuary. If I said 3% of the people even gave a small nod or the slightest acknowledgement to the tabernacle as they walked by (yet alone genuflected) I’d probably be guilty of being too generous.

Current teachings on the location of the RESERVED Tabernacle indicate that it should be visible and present to ALL, ALL of the time. Because of the cost of renovations, this has not been widely accomplished in newer churches and many renovated churches who were doing what THEY THOUGHT was Romes desire for separate Reservation Chapels.

I’m sure if a Catholic was asked, “do you believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist” many, maybe even most would say, “yes”. But, how real is that “yes” response. Do you really mean it or is it simply answering a question based on how you’ve been taught? I can tell you I’m a big Detroit Lions fan, but if I don’t root for them when they play the Bears then I’m really not. Same goes for believing in the Eucharist. If you truly believe then you’d act like it…and acknowledging the tabernacle is just one way.

-Ernie-

CORRECT!

Which is precisely WHY we ALL must take an active role in learning FULLY our beautiful Catholic Faith, then share it when ter HS gives us the opportunity and defend it when necessary. ALWAYS in charity and with clarity [FACTS]


Continued Blessings

Patrick

 

[mmldwheel40]

For myself, when I attend mass, I do feel the real presence of our Lord. Sometimes when I’m receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, I actually see Jesus, instead of the Priest, handing out his Body and Blood.
The real presence of the Lord is vital to me and I wouldn’t be without it.

 

[steve_b]

You know, as a non-Catholic, I’d by and large agree with this. At least in so far as believing the Catholics believe that their Church is the :One True Church" and such.

I mean I’ve never known one Catholic that believes every teaching of, and by extension the full authority of, the Roman Catholic Church.

Now you can erase that. You’ve met him

 

[Brassring]

Without the True Presence, it wouldn’t BE a Church.

 

[PJM]

quote] Originally Posted by Della View Post
I don’t think you “get it,” my dear. These people have no more concept of “truth” than the average dog. They are immune to God’s grace because they are perfectly content or they have never had any opportunity to avail themselves of God’s grace. The latter are as culpable as someone living in the bush who has never heard of God. And thank God, their judgment, and ours,** is not up to us–it’s up to God. end quote**

I usually try to avoid reply to our friend Della to avoid arguments ; BUT the highlighted comments REQUIRE correction.

1. God in order to be GOD commits Himself to OFFER every human souls sufficient grace that that ALL could get to know, love and serve HIM. Its a OFFER that can be and too often is refused, BUT that is that Souls choice, not our God’s fault.

1Tim.2 Verses 3 to 4 "[3] This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
[4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

1. The choice of Eternal Hell or eternal Heaven is OUR"S to make; it is NOT determined by God

“Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:” …[Ecclesiasticus 15:18]

Isa.43: 7 & 21 [7] every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made. & [21] the people whom I formed for myself that **they might **declare my praise.

God Bless you!
Patrick

Hi Della and Steve,

You are having an excellent discussion and I don’t want to inappropriately step in (and frankly it might be a bit off topic), but I just wanted to add something. I agree with both of you as it relates to “truth” and “ignorance” and one thing that I believe has a big impact on this is the acceptance of the “cafeteria” style Catholic. Not that the Church officially accepts this type of Catholic that picks and chooses what Catholic beliefs they will and won’t believe, but there is a lack of vigilance on this topic in my opinion.

I’d love to know what % of Catholics believe in 100% of all Church dogmas, yet alone teachings? How many truly believe in the authority of the Church? I believe a very small number and it has such a profound impact. Without 100% belief how can there be passion? Without 100% belief there is doubt…doubt in the Church’s authority and teachings, which leave a crack that can only get wider and be “that one last straw” that makes them leave the Church.

IMO, anything less than 100% is cause for grave concerns.

True FAITH is a GIFT from God through the HS, it is to be sought and prayerd for. For ourselves as well as others.

And sometimes this “cafeteria style” Catholic can come in the most innocent form. Take the Protestant vs the Catholic bible. There are many Catholics (even on this forum as I’ve debated this topic on other threads) that believe a Protestant bible is “incomplete” rather than wrong. Being politically correct has taken over for defending the truth. Believing that anything less than a 73 book bible is anathema (per the Council of Trent) is viewed today as being divisive.

Incomplete [the 7 deleted books] is a given certainty

That it is wrong is too a fact, but needs to be specified to be so. FAR more often is a personal interpretation, or a individual desired understanding NOT based on what the bible say;s but what they choose to believe it is saying, that is the root issue.

2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first,** that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.** [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

[Douay explanation]
[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise. End Quotes DOUAY CATHOLIC BIBLE

We as Catholics have to stop apologizing for our great faith, stop thinking it’s divisive to proclaim the truth, and start acting like the Church Jesus established!! Then people will know what the truth is, ignorance won’t be caused due to confusion of what Catholics really believe, and the Church will grow in “on fire” Catholics.

OK, jumping off my soap box now!!!

-Ernie-

AMEN!

 

[steve_b]

You have a tremendous amount to learn about people. Ease of finding research in your case presumes an awareness of it. It also presumes that secularism is not the biggest problem influencing mankind, at least in western society.

Maybe you didn’t see where I’m from.

As a native Californian, the most secularist state in the union, are you lecturing me on learning about secularism?

otjm:

Ultimately, the issue is God’s. But it is all too easy to sit in pseudo judgment of people, all the while protesting that we are not judging.

pseudo judgement?

I have no trouble judging people’s actions.

1 Cor 5:
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men;[d] 10 not at all meaning the immoral[e] of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But rather I wrote[f] to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality[g] or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. 12 What business is it of mine to judge κρίνειν; ] those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge κρίνετε; ] those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you."

We often hear “you can’t judge” or “thou shalt not judge”.

Obviously

We have to judge people’s actions in order to assess who to associate with and who not to, or that passage from Paul is meaningless…

Here is my post that you reference. #92 Note the context I’m answering, and with the CCC Re: Unfaithful Catholics. Which is Paul’s point.

 

[PJM]

You know, as a non-Catholic, I’d by and large agree with this. At least in so far as believing the Catholics believe that their Church is the :One True Church" and such.

I mean I’ve never known one Catholic that believes every teaching of, and by extension the full authority of, the Roman Catholic Church. Every Catholic or former Catholic I’ve known has been “Cafeteria” to some extent or another. Be it taking birth control, accepting same sex relationships, not believing the Pope to actually have any kind of right to infallibility, not believing in the real presence in Eucharist, never partaking in Confession due to not believing it necessary, not believing it matters which bible you believe in, etc…

And you’re right, by extension it’s hard to believe the RCC is truly what it claims to be when so many of its adherents and leadership don’t seem to act like it is…

Maybe a place the RCC can learn something from the non-Christians Mormons. The Mormons certainly do a better job of presenting themselves as what they believe their Church is even if they’re not Christians. Their leaders don’t really seem to compromise when it comes to core beliefs, and they instill the same in the bulk of their adherents.

Yea but being a believing Mormon is far less likely to get one the heaven than being a believing Catholic.
As for not having met even one Catholic who does not accept ALL that the RCC teachings; well friend I AM one and know many others that also so do,

So as not to hijack this THREAD, if you’d care to entire in the One True Church discussion send me a private message [PJM]…

Further I would point out the FACT that historically the RCC is some 2,000 years old, growing in membership and dates directly back to the Apostles.

With 1 BILLION+ members their will be some who lack full and proper catechesis and some who even lack FULL Faith.

God Bless you friend
Patrick

 

[PJM]

it does if you accept that a catholic university doesn’t teach catholic positions on catholicism and religion any longer.

some but not all

 

[Della]

How is It, I quote you and I’m sarcastic?

Um no, you misquoted me.

Jesus is speaking, both times. Telling us in advance what’s to come

Matthew 7:13-14 ,

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

**Luke 13:23-28 **,
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth,"

Did Jesus correct the questioner(s) about only a few are saved? No. He validated their point.

He ought to know then, how many are saved, since He’s the one doing all the judging.

No, by telling us what Jesus means you are doing the judging. Let’s leave doctrinal interpretation to those to whom Christ gave the authority–the Magisterium.

And Here’s my post that you answered #95
I’m showing people don’t get an automatic ignorance pass, especially given the ease of gaining information today .

No one said that people get a free pass for their deliberate ignorance. But there are also obstacles to people learning/understanding that can’t always be overcome. This is why we leave judging who is being deliberately ignorant and who isn’t up to God. You seem to think you should have that authority merely because you quote the Catechism for us. But documents aren’t judges of men’s hearts, God is–not you or I.

I see that as a distinction without a difference.
I never said we shouldn’t evangelize.

Fortunately, God does see the distinctions or there wouldn’t be any. And, I never accused you of saying we shouldn’t evangelize. When you exaggerate and/or put words in our mouths, you lose any credibility you may have had.

Certainly those who deliberately ignore the truth will be held accountable, even so, God alone decides who has committed that sin, not you or I.

 

[meltzerboy]

Good,

one will do

check it out? Do you have something in mind?
Just one will do.

I already told you what I had in mind: the many theories about the origin of crime, which conflict with one another. You can look up these theories on the Internet if you wish, but don’t give ME a homework assignment. I am a semi-retired professor and on vacation!

 

[otjm]

Maybe you didn’t see where I’m from.

As a native Californian, the most secularist state in the union, are you lecturing me on learning about secularism?

Well, I am just north of you, and Oregon has often been referred to as the most un-churched state in the union. But debate aside, no I was not lecturing you. Others read what is posted, too.

pseudo judgement?

I have no trouble judging people’s actions.

And I specifically did not use the word “actions”. I actually meant what I said. That is not to accuse you of judging others (not others’ actions), but plenty of people do that.No, all too many do that.

As far as unfaithful Catholics, I don’t need a reminder, considering the amount of time I have devoted to Catholics Returning Home. I do my best, one at a time.

I recently had an interesting experience. I was working with a woman who was in an irregular second marriage. She was convinced that she could not receive a decree of nullity (her statement). What was interesting is that she told someone I work with how much help I had given her, and how non-judgmental I was.

And as a result, she is starting the process of seeking a decree of nullity.

I didn’t need to judge her actions and tell her how wrong she was; I needed to address her position concerning seeking a decree. How we lead others, and how we evangelize, can have a profound impact on how the other person takes or rejects what we say. I said nothing whatsoever that was deceptive or untruthful, and neither did I sit and tell her how out of sync she was with the Church and with God. It was obvious she had some clue as to that. It was also obvious that others had stepped forward to tell her how wrong she was.

I am not suggesting that no one should ever be told they are out of sync with the Church; only that there are plenty of people who already know that; they need to figure out how to repair their position, and they need help figuring out how to return. And no, it often is not as simple as saying “go to confession”.

In all too many cases, a whole lot more can be accomplished by asking non leading questions than can be done by making statements.

 

[otjm]

some but not all

And in some which have a reputation of having strayed from the Church, there are professors who do teach in line with the Church.

 

[Michael_Francis]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Please return to topic, which is **“Catholics Would u go to church w\o the real presence teaching Eucharist” **and remain there lest thread be closed.

 

[eddie_too]

the OP appears, to me, to be completely fatuous.

the Holy Eucharist will always be a part of human existence in this world.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

Lucy my friend, it’s not merely a concept. It is OUR GOD"S Truth:thumbsup:

Because the Real Presence" IS Really, Truly and substantially Present; our God is truly in our MIDST. Not a sign, not a symbol BUT Jesus IN PERSON

The fact that not all who attend Catholic Mass, are able to recognize that FACT, in no way lessons the significance of that FACT for those of us blessed and able to know, love and serve our God in the very manner He desires.

Continued Blessings
Patrick

To me it was a concept for many years because although I along with my classmates were sent for catechism and first communion many of us weren’t taken to mass regularly. Most of them don’t practice and I think teaching this truth and doing almost nothing to demonstrate reverence for it or model living it did more harm than anything. These people have the truth but can’t recognize it.

I think this is partly why there are a lot of ex-Catholics at other churches, I mean if you don’t feel the need for the Eucharist you may as well go for what feels fulfilling.

 

[PJM]

To me it was a concept for many years because although I along with my classmates were sent for catechism and first communion many of us weren’t taken to mass regularly. Most of them don’t practice and I think teaching this truth and doing almost nothing to demonstrate reverence for it or model living it did more harm than anything. These people have the truth but can’t recognize it.

I think this is partly why there are a lot of ex-Catholics at other churches, I mean if you don’t feel the need for the Eucharist you may as well go for what feels fulfilling.

SADLY that is so very true.

What so many fail to grasp is that DENIAL of the TRUTH of the Real Presence IS Denial of GOD Hmself

GBY

Patrick

 

[ConfusedLucy]

SADLY that is so very true.

What so many fail to grasp is that DENIAL of the TRUTH of the Real Presence IS Denial of GOD Hmself

GBY

Patrick

I wonder if many of these people would have been better not being taught it at all.

 

[Vico]

I wonder if many of these people would have been better not being taught it at all.

No. Pope Paul VI wrote in the Encyclical on The Holy Eucharist, Mysterium fidei (Sep. 3, 1965):

1. The Council of Trent, basing itself on this faith of the Church, “openly and sincerely professes that after the consecration of the bread and wine, Our Lord Jesus Christ, true God and man, is really, truly and substantially contained in the Blessed Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist under the outward appearances of sensible things.” And so Our Savior is present in His humanity not only in His natural manner of existence at the right hand of the Father, but also at the same time in the sacrament of the Eucharist “in a manner of existing that we can hardly express in words but that our minds, illumined by faith, can come to see as possible to God and that we must most firmly believe.” (49)
   (49) Decree on the Most Holy Eucharist, c. 1.

w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_03091965_mysterium.html

Council of Trent, Session XIII, Chapter VIII

CANON I.-If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct13.html