Catholics- Would you kill Joseph Smith?

[paarsurrey]

Brigham Young .

Hi

Who was this Brigham Young, please?

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Thanks for your good viewpoint.

Regards

 

[RobHom]

Hi

Who was this Brigham Young, please?

Thanks

Here’s a biography of him: unicomm.byu.edu/about/brigham.aspx

 

[dianaiad]

Hi

Was JS running for the President of America?

Thanks

Well, that’s a job nobody has managed to figure out how to invent yet, but he was a candidate for President of the United States of America.

 

[dianaiad]

Well, that may be true now–and I believe that it was mostly true at the time of Joseph Smith–though there are some indications that, at least in Ireland, such sentiments are more wishful thinking than truth.

But Catholics are human. Even Catholics who are priests and in charge of the church are human…and history shows us that humans are very capable of some very nasty things.

I would like to think that no Christian of whatever flavor, would engage in such behavior, but—they do.

 

[Bill_Pick]

If Joseph Smith were alive today, preaching the restored gospel, establishing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, would you kill him? Please assume that you will not be punished by the law, as those who did kill him were not punished.

I have read much on this forum, by Catholics, implying approval of the killing of Joseph Smith. For example. “he died in a gun fight” (one against 200), he was a con man, h was a polygmamist, etc.

can we kill martin luthern and calvin and other reformers

 

[dianaiad]

It has everything to do with the statement that a Catholic wouldn’t participate in such a thing.

Being Catholic didn’t stop the terrorists in Ireland, did it?

Therefore, it is not true that simply being a Catholic would prevent someone from participating in such an action.

On the other hand, lighten up. I’m the one that pointed out that there weren’t any Catholics involved in the real murder of JS. AT least, I don’t think there were.

 

[dianaiad]

(sigh)

WERE THERE CATHOLICS INVOLVED?

(please excuse the shouting)

Did their Catholicism prevent the violence that they committed?

OF COURSE the situation in Ireland (with which I am also familar) has a great deal less to do with religion than it does with politics, but religion did play a part, as you yourself mentioned when you stuck the word "protestant’ in there.

My point is that if their religion did not prevent them from participating in the violence, then you cannot claim that simply being Catholic would prevent one from participating in violence in another situation. That the motives for the violence might not be strictly religious is irrelevant; the claim was that a Catholic wouldn’t do it for ANY reason.

I’d buy that from a nineteenth century Quaker, but that’s about it.

 

[RobHom]

It has everything to do with the statement that a Catholic wouldn’t participate in such a thing.

Not necessarily. If you were to study the history of Ireland, you might have cause to view things a little differently, unless of course you possess a certain jaundice or prejudice that is unwavering. Here’s a source: white-history.com/hwr29.htm

Being Catholic didn’t stop the terrorists in Ireland, did it?

No, to some extent it didn’t, but not all of the “republicans” (not to be confused with the US political party) were Catholics. There were “Protestants” who support the republican agenda for a free Eire. And then, there are Protestant terrorists as well. The hands of the Protestants are not “bloodless”, no less than the “republicans”.

Therefore, it is not true that simply being a Catholic would prevent someone from participating in such an action.

“Simply being a Catholic” is not enough to preclude us from being involved in a lot of things…

One thing that you have to understand is that Ireland was “invaded” and against their will…on several occasions, so an exceptionally good argument could be made for the “republicans” having a right to wage a “just war” for their independence.

On the other hand, lighten up. I’m the one that pointed out that there weren’t any Catholics involved in the real murder of JS. AT least, I don’t think there were.

This is to your credit. I doubt seriously that there were any Catholics present…as the first real presence of Catholics in Illinois was in the mid to late 1800’s…around 1850, and the Irish were the immigrants who were treated in the same fashion as slaves… In other words, Catholics were not particularly well liked in the US in the early days… You might find this site interesting, written by a descendant of Irish immigrants, who instead of being Catholic… is LDS. hubpages.com/hub/No-Irish-Need-Apply-A-St-Patricks-Day-Tribute-To-My-Irish-Ancestors-From-A-True-Plastic-Paddy

 

[Jerusha]

Unlike the Danites, I don’t believe in the death penalty for any other crime than genocide.

It is difficult to determine at this time whether JS was guilty of more than fraud, destruction of a printing press, and institutionalized adultery (and rape). I believe that he was blamed for more than he was guilty of, as evidence I present the evolution of the LDS culture under BY. (Maybe if they were to have killed someone, it should have been BY )

To my knowledge, no-one on this board has ever said that the people who killed him did the right thing. Although I do believe that they saw no other option at that point. Like I said, it was frontier justice. Witout an effective judicial system, that often goes astray.

And, no, the few Catholics in that area were in Ft. Madison Iowa and McDonough county Illinois, according to my research. The opposition was centered in Missouri and Warsaw Illinois. macomb.com/~ilmcdono/Churches/CathCh.html

So quit making false accusations of the people on this board. (And possibly me in particular?)

Ancestor worship-- what

 

[dianaiad]

Not necessarily. If you were to study the history of Ireland, you might have cause to view things a little differently, unless of course you possess a certain jaundice or prejudice that is unwavering. Here’s a source: white-history.com/hwr29.htm

Thank you, but as I mentioned, it is irrelevant to the point I was making.

No, to some extent it didn’t, (referring to my comment that being Catholic didn’t prevent violence) but not all of the “republicans” (not to be confused with the US political party) were Catholics. There were “Protestants” who support the republican agenda for a free Eire. And then, there are Protestant terrorists as well. The hands of the Protestants are not “bloodless”, no less than the “republicans”.

Tu Quoque is also a fallacy. It doesn’t matter who ELSE participated in it. The claim was that a Catholic wouldn’t participate in a mob out to kill Joseph Smith. My response, by using Ireland, is to show that there isn’t some magical property about being Catholic that would do so. There SHOULD be, but the fact is, Catholics engage in violence. Not all of them…not MOST of them…but simply being Catholic does not insure that none of them will.

Just as simply being Mormon will not prevent someone from smoking, or drinking, committing murder, adultery, theft, skullery or duggery or engaging in any of the other things that our religion tells us not to do. No guarantees.

“Simply being a Catholic” is not enough to preclude us from being involved in a lot of things…

Which, of course, was my POINT. Remember, the claim from Catholics in here is just that; “no Catholic would…” or “Catholics would never…” but they would, and do, and have. If the possibility weren’t there, why are there confessionals and the option to repent?

One thing that you have to understand is that Ireland was “invaded” and against their will…on several occasions, so an exceptionally good argument could be made for the “republicans” having a right to wage a “just war” for their independence.

Perhaps…and perhaps not…the point is, simply being Catholic didn’t stop anybody from participating in some of the nasty terrorism that accompanied it, did it?

This is to your credit. (regarding my statement that there weren’t actually any Catholics in the mob that murdered Joseph) I doubt seriously that there were any Catholics present…as the first real presence of Catholics in Illinois was in the mid to late 1800’s…around 1850, and the Irish were the immigrants who were treated in the same fashion as slaves… In other words, Catholics were not particularly well liked in the US in the early days… You might find this site interesting, written by a descendant of Irish immigrants, who instead of being Catholic… is LDS. hubpages.com/hub/No-Irish-Need-Apply-A-St-Patricks-Day-Tribute-To-My-Irish-Ancestors-From-A-True-Plastic-Paddy

I know that Catholics had to endure a great deal of persecution in the US…and no Mormon would approve of that, y’know.

(grin)

Well, no Mormon who actually obeyed the rules and precepts of his or her religion would; let’s put it that way.

Diana

 

[dianaiad]

Unlike the Danites, I don’t believe in the death penalty for any other crime than genocide.

The DANITES? WHAT?

It is difficult to determine at this time whether JS was guilty of more than fraud, destruction of a printing press, and institutionalized adultery (and rape). I believe that he was blamed for more than he was guilty of, as evidence I present the evolution of the LDS culture under BY. (Maybe if they were to have killed someone, it should have been BY )

To my knowledge, no-one on this board has ever said that the people who killed him did the right thing. Although I do believe that they saw no other option at that point. Like I said, it was frontier justice. Witout an effective judicial system, that often goes astray.

Oh, give me a break. On one hand you say nobody justified the killing…and you just did. "Frontier justice,’ for what? The man broke a printing press belonging to a guy that had just conspired to murder him, and he offered to pay for the damages. For this you think that he deserved to be shot? What about the other men with him? Did they deserve it as well?

As to an effective system of justice, you are quite right about that; nobody was ever punished for participating in that. Come to think of it, nobody was ever punished for killing the people at Haun’s Mill, either, including the nine year old who was shot in the head because ‘nits make lice.’

Nobody was ever brought to justice for any of the things done TO the Mormons, not the theft of land, or the rapes, or the murders, or the beatings. But ‘justice’ was swift indeed–so swift that the punishment almost always came before the conviction–in the case of a Mormon suspected of anything.

Now, Brigham Young was a rough man. He was outspoken, and had some weird and wonderful opinions–and he had a most flamboyant speaking style. Thank heaven for him, though, because without him there would have been a massacre of Mormons in Missourri that would have shamed the USA for centuries. If you don’t like his belief system, and even don’t like HIM, you have to admire his organizational skills and the way he managed to keep a people together and alive.

And, no, the few Catholics in that area were in Ft. Madison Iowa and McDonough county Illinois, according to my research. The opposition was centered in Missouri and Warsaw Illinois. macomb.com/~ilmcdono/Churches/CathCh.html

So quit making false accusations of the people on this board. (And possibly me in particular?)

Ancestor worship-- what

Huh? What 'false accusations?" I’m the one who mentioned that there weren’t any Catholics in the real mob, remember?

And you, my friend, are the one who has justified the murder of Joseph Smith as excusible ‘frontier justice’ even though you don’t approve of the death penalty for anything other than genocide.

Perhaps you might want to think about this: Governor Boggs issued an Extermination Order (that’s what HE called it, don’t blame me…) that made it legal to kill any Mormon in the state of Missouri after a certain date. He then issued orders to the state militia to see to it that no Mormon LEFT the state before that date.

Thanks to Brigham Young, a deal was worked out whereby the Mormons could leave (in the middle of the winter, thus ensuring that over half the first Mormons in Utah were missing fingers, toes, noses or even arms and legs, from frostbite.)

Thanks to Brigham Young, a genocide that had been ordered did NOT occur.

Yet here you are, regretting that it wasn’t BY that was murdered instead of Joseph Smith.

Just as an addendum; were you aware that this Extermination Order was still legal until 1976? For over a century and a half, it was legal to kill any Mormon in the state of Missourri, man, woman or child, simply on account of his or her religion.

Nobody actually took advantage of that permission after the first month it was in force, but still…

Fun stuff, facts.

Oh, by the way, we do not worship our ancestors. Just to let you know.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thank heaven for him, though, because without him there would have been a massacre of Mormons in Missourri that would have shamed the USA for centuries.

Knowing the little bit I know about the person you are talking to, this ought to be good.

 

[RobHom]

Thank you, but as I mentioned, it is irrelevant to the point I was making.

Perhaps I misread you…

Tu Quoque is also a fallacy. It doesn’t matter who ELSE participated in it. The claim was that a Catholic wouldn’t participate in a mob out to kill Joseph Smith. My response, by using Ireland, is to show that there isn’t some magical property about being Catholic that would do so. There SHOULD be, but the fact is, Catholics engage in violence. Not all of them…not MOST of them…but simply being Catholic does not insure that none of them will.

Touche’… But as to your original statement… I honestly cannot see a Catholic in this country being a part of killing someone like Joseph Smith. He posed no danger to Catholics, or anyone for that matter.

I think I understand your rationale, to a point, but I differ on Ireland being a valid example. The situations are not alike in any fashion. The Mormons were not invaders, thus the people that murdered and persecuted the Mormons in the 1800’s did so out of pure ignorance and malice.

No, you’re right…being Catholic is not a concrete guarantee that we as a people, as diverse as we are, that we are incapable of violence. In fact, historically, Catholics have always been very well represented in our military, and some of the first to volunteer in war times.

Just as simply being Mormon will not prevent someone from smoking, or drinking, committing murder, adultery, theft, skullery or duggery or engaging in any of the other things that our religion tells us not to do. No guarantees.

While I can’t say I have ever seen a Mormon commit any civil or criminal crime, I have known many Mormons…and served in combat with some…and yes they would drink and occasionally smoke…but they were darned good soldiers and brave men. I have great respect for them.

Which, of course, was my POINT. Remember, the claim from Catholics in here is just that; “no Catholic would…” or “Catholics would never…” but they would, and do, and have. If the possibility weren’t there, why are there confessionals and the option to repent?

?Because none of us wears a halo? Point well taken.

Perhaps…and perhaps not…the point is, simply being Catholic didn’t stop anybody from participating in some of the nasty terrorism that accompanied it, did it?

It certainly didn’t…and never will. I remember being told by a Catholic Priest in 1968 before I left for Vietnam…that God was on “our side”… I wasn’t too sure about the “applicability” of that statement…because the Vietnam War had little to do with religion…

I know that Catholics had to endure a great deal of persecution in the US…and no Mormon would approve of that, y’know.

(grin)

How well I know that, and I know of the persecutions that Mormons had to contend with… and I have always felt that despite our differences in “theology” that there exists a common bond or understanding because of that commonality.

Well, no Mormon who actually obeyed the rules and precepts of his or her religion would; let’s put it that way.

Diana

Diana, I am sure that you are right. As I have said… I have known many Mormons…both from my time in the service, and when I was growing up in Orlando…the kids from out at Deseret Farms and that area went to my school…got to know some of them pretty well. Good people all.

Like you, I can’t see where any good Catholic would be involved in a lynch mob, or a part of a murder squad…especially in this country…

Peace!!

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Any Christians who can romanticise the murdering vermin of the IRA are indeed very “poorly informed” - apparently the IRA are the right kind of terrorists for the “useful idiots” in the USA to support. The USA deserves what happened on Sept 11 2001 ​

 

[chrisb]

I’m not sure what the Spanish Inquisition would have done to him if they would have gotten their hands on him but I’m more of a Contemplative than that so I would say that I would not attempt to kill him but we would talk.

 

[RobHom]

Perhaps you might want to think about this: Governor Boggs issued an Extermination Order (that’s what HE called it, don’t blame me…) that made it legal to kill any Mormon in the state of Missouri after a certain date. He then issued orders to the state militia to see to it that no Mormon LEFT the state before that date.

Thanks to Brigham Young, a deal was worked out whereby the Mormons could leave (in the middle of the winter, thus ensuring that over half the first Mormons in Utah were missing fingers, toes, noses or even arms and legs, from frostbite.)

Thanks to Brigham Young, a genocide that had been ordered did NOT occur.

Yet here you are, regretting that it wasn’t BY that was murdered instead of Joseph Smith.

Just as an addendum; were you aware that this Extermination Order was still legal until 1976? For over a century and a half, it was legal to kill any Mormon in the state of Missourri, man, woman or child, simply on account of his or her religion.

Nobody actually took advantage of that permission after the first month it was in force, but still…

Fun stuff, facts.

Oh, by the way, we do not worship our ancestors. Just to let you know.

Diana,

I am simply amazed… I thought I knew a bit about US history… but I have to tell you… I learned something today!!!

I had never heard of the Missouri Extermination Order, much less the 1976 Rescission Order… and here, for those who doubt it, is the State of Missouri Secretary of State’s website that has the documents in digital images: sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/findingaids/miscMormonRecords.asp?rec=eo

Even though I am not from Missouri…as an American I find what I learned today to be more than shameful… Words to describe what I feel elude me…

 

[CarolinNC]

No! All human life is sacred. Just because someone speaks the truth about who Joseph Smith was does not make them homicidal maniacs.

My faith in the LDS church has long since died and all of its doctrines have been shown to be lies, but I have great respect for the people, every one of whom are unique and precious.

Your question was highly offensive!!

 

[RobHom]

Any Christians who can romanticise the murdering vermin of the IRA are indeed very “poorly informed” - apparently the IRA are the right kind of terrorists for the “useful idiots” in the USA to support. The USA deserves what happened on Sept 11 2001 ​

I certainly was not trying to “romanticize” the IRA and their acts, because some of them were without question “detestable”, and criminal at best. I don’t recall anyone “romanticizing”… the IRA.

For what its worth…most people in the US, Catholics and others did not support the acts of the IRA…and that includes many of the Irish in the US. Terrorism is terrorism…

Any comments that I made were in light of the context of the history of Ireland as a whole.

What happened to the US on 9-11 was hardly “deserved”, and I think you know better than that!! We deserved that just about as much as India deserved what happened in Mumbai, or what happened to Spain in Barcelona…

I think you need to apologize for that statement.

 

[Laurent_LUG]

Even I’m not catholic I’d like to answering this question:

Hi

Who was this Brigham Young, please?

Thanks

Even already answered , this link also useful: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young

can we kill martin luthern and calvin and other reformers

Murder is such a wonderful thing , when not done !!

I would be a cheap solution to get rid of the problem !!
I don’t understand why some people like (to) murder !!

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), januari 4, 2009