Catholics- Would you kill Joseph Smith?

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He literally just told you that the sources he was using were all primary sources, or peer-reviewed secondary sources, and you ignored it.
where? i have already explained how Richards and taylors version are suspect. the opposition witnesses seem to be ignored in this and i have yet to see any evidence of peer reviewed analysis of this.

Mormons seem to be ignoring any version that differs from the gospel doctrine manual.
 
where? i have already explained how Richards and taylors version are suspect. the opposition witnesses seem to be ignored in this and i have yet to see any evidence of peer reviewed analysis of this.

Mormons seem to be ignoring any version that differs from the gospel doctrine manual.
The secondary source he was citing was peer reviewed, and that work supports his description of the events.
 
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majick275:
so to sum up, you only accept the faith promoting version written by the LDS church long after the fact.

To sum it up, I accept the most likely train of events that actually, y’know, happened.

it is neither ‘faith promoting’ (nice euphamism for ‘lie,’) nor faith destroying. It just is.
 
where? i have already explained how Richards and taylors version are suspect. the opposition witnesses seem to be ignored in this and i have yet to see any evidence of peer reviewed analysis of this.

Mormons seem to be ignoring any version that differs from the gospel doctrine manual.
No, actually, you haven’t, unless I missed something very, very big.

Indeed, the only real witnesses we have to what happened INSIDE the room was from Taylor and Richards, and their accounts do two things: first, they disagree with each other enough so that collusion is not a logical conclusion, and they agree with each other on the main events enough to be reasonable.

The eyewitness accounts of the men outside corroborate their stories as far as what they could see of those events.

Stripped of emotional rhetoric, there is nothing suspect about their description of what happened.
 
If Joseph Smith were alive today, preaching the restored gospel, establishing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, would you kill him? Please assume that you will not be punished by the law, as those who did kill him were not punished.

I have read much on this forum, by Catholics, implying approval of the killing of Joseph Smith. For example. “he died in a gun fight” (one against 200), he was a con man, h was a polygmamist, etc.
First of all, there’s no such thing as a restored gospel. Secondly, Catholics wouldn’t kill Joseph Smith because murder is wrong. The fifth commandment, in the Bible, says Thou Shalt Not Kill. So you can’t just kill someone like that.
 
My most compelling logic about the death of Joseph Smith is that those who killed him had no understanding of the possible consequences of the deed in terms of martyrdom and deification. Therefore, they were not Catholic.
 
Nobody deserves to be killed. As catholics we must forgive, remember it is a mortal sin to kill a person :compcoff:
 
the dallin oaks piece? please…
What’s wrong with the Dallin Oaks piece?

Other than your own dismissal of it because Dallin Oaks happens to be LDS?

If that’s all there is, you have a problem and you are standing out there all on your own; nobody else has a problem with that–not his university peer reviewers (from universities all over the country) nor his peers in the legal community (both practicing attorneys and judges) nor his scholarly peers.

Lots of reviews out there on this ‘Dallin Oaks piece,’ m’friend, and not one of them criticizes it on account of the author’s religion, or mentions any hint of religious bias.

…and trust me, if there were any, these folks would have nailed him to the wall for it.
 
My most compelling logic about the death of Joseph Smith is that those who killed him had no understanding of the possible consequences of the deed in terms of martyrdom and deification. Therefore, they were not Catholic.
Well, since nobody here is accusing Catholics of being in the mob that killed Joseph, I fail to see your point, Jerusha.
 
What’s wrong with the Dallin Oaks piece?

Other than your own dismissal of it because Dallin Oaks happens to be LDS?

If that’s all there is, you have a problem and you are standing out there all on your own; nobody else has a problem with that–not his university peer reviewers (from universities all over the country) nor his peers in the legal community (both practicing attorneys and judges) nor his scholarly peers.

Lots of reviews out there on this ‘Dallin Oaks piece,’ m’friend, and not one of them criticizes it on account of the author’s religion, or mentions any hint of religious bias.

…and trust me, if there were any, these folks would have nailed him to the wall for it.
well then let’s have alsit of all the reviewers and their religious affilitaions. Oaks has a reputation for “lying for the lord” and i am certainly not alone in that opinion. Oaks is a lawyer who has most certainly not convinced non-LDS legal authorities on the expositor debacle. he can hardly be considered an SMA on history so it’s ridiculous to hold him out as some scholarly authority writing an academic piece that “proves” something. his bias is obvious.

Moreover, despite Oaks’ mischievous misdirects, BYU history professor Thomas G. Alexander has explicitly and publicly acknowledged that there existed " no legal justification for the destruction of the [Nauvoo Expositor] press, and the proprietors might have sued the council for recovery of the machine’s value."

(Thomas Alexander, “The Church and the Law,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, vol. 1, Summer 1966, pp. 123-24),

”In the spring of 1844 . . . a small group of Mormon dissidents [in Nauvoo] founded a counter-organization and began publishing the . . . Expositor. They got out only one issue . . . which contained inflammatory allegations about the sex lives of the Mormon leaders and members.

“Smith, who was mayor, his brother Hyrum, vice-mayor, and the City Council, citing Blackstone on a community’s right to abate as a nuisance anything that disturbs the peace, declared the newspaper libelous and a public nuisance endangering civil order, and directed the city marshal to destroy that issue and the press.

“Some had argued for merely fining the libelers simply burning the papers, but Smith said he would ‘rather die tomorrow and have the thing smashed, than live and have it go on, for it was exciting the spirit of mobocracy . . . and bringing death and destruction upon us.’ The Council, which included at least one non-Mormon, concurred.

“Nothing could have provided better ammunition for the anti-Mormons in Illinois . . . Although suppression of inflammatory periodicals was not without precedent and abatement of a nuisance was within the powers of the city council, leaders of the anti-Mormon party were quick to raise the issue of freedom of the press.”

(Leonard J. Arrington and Davis Bitton, The Mormon Experience: A History of the Latter-day Saints [New York, New York: Alfred A,[, Knopf, 1979], pp. 77-78),

". . . [W]hen Joseph Smith ordered the actual destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor printing press, he provided his enemies with a clearly legitimate means of arresting him for violation of the law. They seized upon this to inflame the public even more, and this led directly to [his] assassination.

“Some people may be disturbed by the suggestion that Joseph Smith acted illegally in this instance, but it is important to understand that under the tense pressures of the times he, too, may have made a mistake.”

(James B. Allen, Brigham Young University Today, March 1976, p.10

Dallin Oaks says: “Our individual, personal testimonies are based on the witness of the Spirit, not on any combination or accumulation of historical facts. If we are so grounded, no alteration of historical facts can shake our testimonies.” (“1985 CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium,” Brigham Young University, Aug. 16, 1985, page 26)

1818 Illinois State Consitution, (Article VIII) 22. The printing presses shall be free to every person, who undertakes to examine the proceedings of the general assembly or of any branch of government; and no law shall ever be made to restrain the right thereof. The free communication of thoughts and opinions is one of the invaluable rights of man, and every citizen may freely speak, write, and print on any subject, being responsible for the abuse of that liberty.

shall we look at what Steve Benson reports from his interviews with Oaks? or will you dismiss him as an apostate?

at best oaks gives us only speculation. no evidence is conclusive but it seems more plausible that JS believed the nauvoo legion was coming to bail him out. it is also interesting to note the faith promoting accounts skip over the these men drinking and smoking in the cell as well as just what the expositor was revealing about joseph. the enemies he was making inside his church were far more dangerous than those without. (who were still quite a problem thanks to rigdon pouring gas on the fire tht JS lit). this was not a religious martyr this was a conman caught redhanded who unfortunately was murdered by his enemies thus leading to a golden opportunity for BY to grab the “cream” of the true believers and setup his despotic rule in Utah.

I think if Joseph would not have been killed then the LDS church would be no more visible than it’s remnants that stayed behind (strangites, bickertonites, etc.) Killing Joseph Smith was the worst thing that could have happened. it was blatantly illegal, extremely immoral, cowardly and resulted in a multitude of satan’s delights
 
well then let’s have alsit of all the reviewers and their religious affilitaions. Oaks has a reputation for “lying for the lord” and i am certainly not alone in that opinion.
You aren’t? Ok, who else is of the same opinion you are, and are they peer reviewed?
Oaks is a lawyer who has most certainly not convinced non-LDS legal authorities on the expositor debacle. he can hardly be considered an SMA on history so it’s ridiculous to hold him out as some scholarly authority writing an academic piece that “proves” something. his bias is obvious.
What in the name of all that is wonderful are you talking about? This hasn’t got anything to do with the ‘Expositor debacle.’ It’s all about the murder of Joseph Smith and what physically happened there. The only reason for YOUR bringing the Expositor into it is to somehow justify the murder, as if the destruction of a printing press was a capital offense.

Do you want to do that?

Because if you do, it puts you a little too close to the “yes” side of the question “Catholics - Would you kill Joseph Smith?”

Like Alexander Pope said:

Vice is a monster of such frightful mien,
that to be hated needs but to be seen;
but seen too oft, familiar with its face,
we first endure, then pity, then embrace

Why of course, 200 armed men in black face out to murder four unarmed (as they thought) prisoners before they could be tried for their accused crimes–that is a ‘monster of frightful mien,’ isn’t it?

Unless of course it’s ‘frontier justice,’ or because the crime was the destruction of a printing press, or you didn’t like the religious teachings of the prisoners…

“seen too oft, familiar with its face,’ in other words, we 'first endure, then pity…” and then, by making all sorts of excuses and attacking what the prisoners did to get them imprisoned, ‘then embrace.’

There is a very big difference between examining the reasons for something—and finding excuses. You, my friend, are finding excuses. You are embracing and excusing the actions of the mob.

By the way, the Oaks article to which I am referring isn’t about the Expositor–or even so much about the murders themselves, but about the trial of the men who participated in them.

Get a grip.
 
A couple of posters seem to think that, when I started this thread, I said that Catholics killed Joseph Smith. Please re-read the original post. I did not say that. I assume that the members of the mob which murdered Joseph Smith were Protestants. What I asked was whether Catholics would TODAY kill Joseph Smith.

I do consider Joseph Smith a martyr. Yes, he did shoot back. He had a primitive six-shooter pistol (a predecessor to the revolver) and was able to fire three shots with the gun otherwise misfiring. His companions were completely unarmed. They were attacked by a mob of about 200 renegade militiamen armed with muskets. With those kind of odds, it is hard for me to fathom the callousness of CAF posters (and Catholic author Isaiah Bennett in This Rock) in dismissing the martyrdom of Joseph as his simply being “killed in a gunfight”. For myself, I love the man all the more for fighting. After all, he was an American prophet and an American martyr, and Americans are fighters, no matter what the odds.

Moreover, Joseph could have fled to the Rock Mountains, made plans and arrangements to do so, and even began to do so. He had prophesyed that the Saints would find a haven in the Rockies and become a great people, so presumably they would have joined him there. However, Joseph turned his horse around, and road east to Carthage, east to martyrdom.

Did Joseph hope that the Nauvoo Legion would rescue him? Perhaps. There is no way to know. We do know that Joseph could have stayed in Nauvoo and those 2,000+ men would have fought to the death to defend him. My intuition is that Joseph knew that path would lead to the massacre of the Mormon people. More importantly, we know that Joseph certainly knew he was, by riding to Carthage, subjecting himself to hideous danger. He put his life on the line for the Mormon people, for me, for my family, and he lost it. If that is not sufficient to meet the Catholic definition of “martyr”, well then, Joseph was not a Catholic, and neither am I.

I do not believe that Joseph was killed because he ordered the destruction of a newpaper printing press. Death threats against him, and even published appeals for violence against him, had been extant a considerable time. I also think it unlikely that outsiders to the Church would have been so exercised about the destruction of the press of a newspaper published by Mormon dissenters. Joseph was martyred because both Joseph’s preaching of the restored gospel, and the faith and unity of the Mormon people, excited abominable prejudices among other people. The destruction of the press was important only in creating the circumstances which delivered Joseph into the hands of his enemies.

My original post was brought about by some of the remarks I have seen posted on CAF about Joseph Smith and his death. I was also impressed by several articles I read on Wikipedia including “Inquisition”, “Antisemitism”, “Thirty Years War” and, most importantly “Albigensian Crusade.” If what I read there is true and fairly presented, Catholics have a long history of killing people for their religous beliefs. (Protestants kill too.) For example, as to the Albigensians, I read that His Holiness Innocent III had between 200,000 to 1,000,000 Cathar heretics killed. Sam Harris, no Catholic, and in fact a “neo-Atheist”, is quoted as writing that “some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them.” Maybe Mr. Harris is just telling it like it really is–and like it really was for Joseph in the eyes of his enemies.
 
All the above commentary states is that you can’t lust after someone you aren’t married to. It doesn’t address the number of women you can marry.

…and polygamy was, though uncommon, not unheard of in those times.

Not that it matters; polygamy is practiced when it is required, and not when it isn’t. Abraham did it. Jesus’ apostles didn’t. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did it. We don’t. (shrug)
I do not agree with you. It goes against the teachings of the RCC. You are not aloud to marry more than one person according to the teachings of the RCC. Now are you saying that the RCC is wrong in thier teachings? And the RCC goes by the teaching of Jesus Christ. Now in our faith it is not only sin, it is never required it is actually forbidden. Now I did not say you could not only lust over I said you can only be married to one person.
 
I do not agree with you. It goes against the teachings of the RCC. You are not aloud to marry more than one person according to the teachings of the RCC.
Psst, don’t look now, but…

I’m not RCC.
Now are you saying that the RCC is wrong in thier teachings?
Well…yeah. But then I’m a Mormon. Thinking you guys are wrong about a few things comes with the territory. 😉

Just like thinking that Mormons are a few scoops shy of an ice cream sundae comes with being a Catholic.
And the RCC goes by the teaching of Jesus Christ.
As you believe them to be, yes. That’s what makes you a Christian. Doesn’t make you RIGHT, but that’s a whole 'nuther situation.
Now in our faith it is not only sin, it is never required it is actually forbidden. Now I did not say you could not only lust over I said you can only be married to one person.
Ok, in your faith it’s a sin.

As a matter of fact, it’s a sin in our faith too. The thing we both have in common is that it USED to be perfectly acceptable to have more than one wife…in our case a whole lot more recently than in yours. --like a couple of millenia. 😉
 
Who were the peers?

in Christ
Steph
The following people are well respected peers, writing in peer reviewed journals, and as far as I am aware, there’s not a Mormon among 'em.

There’s:
Charles Peterson, from the Journal of American History.
Erl Ellis; The Western Historical Quarterly
Mario De Pillis: The pacific Historical Review
Elizabeth Harmer Dionne Stanford Law Review
Michael Feldberg: The American Historical Review.
David Fellman: Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science.
E. Blythe Stason: The University of Chicago Law Review

Every one of the above people wrote a review of the work in question, that is “Carthage Conspiracy: The Trial of the Accused Assassins of Joseph Smith,” or used that work as a scholarly reference for something else. That’s just from JSTOR. I didn’t have time to do a search on a law database.

Now there are a great many more, but it’s almost nine o’clock, and that’s sufficient to prove the point; that this piece is a peer-reviewed, respected, scholarly work. The next time I spend this much time on a project, I want a grade and/or money.

Why you are so determined to make it NOT that–and indeed, to make it encompass so much more than it actually does, I haven’t a clue. (shrug)

Your problem. Anyway, that’ll do.

Next question?
 

** The USA deserves** what happened on Sept 11 2001​

Dude, I was just perusing the board and came your disgusting remark and it revolted me to the core of my being. I cannot, in good conscience, let this go without comment.

I was there that day. Suffice it to say that I cannot begin to describe the living hell of that day and the living hell of the days and weeks that followed. I don’t know who you think you are, but for you to say that ANYBODY deserves something like that is absolutely beyond my comprehension. Do you have any concept of what you said? You should give thanks to God that YOU weren’t caught in that nightmare. I’ll pray for you; you obviously have some very, very serious problems.
 
Psst, don’t look now, but…

I’m not RCC.

Well…yeah. But then I’m a Mormon. Thinking you guys are wrong about a few things comes with the territory. 😉

Just like thinking that Mormons are a few scoops shy of an ice cream sundae comes with being a Catholic.

As you believe them to be, yes. That’s what makes you a Christian. Doesn’t make you RIGHT, but that’s a whole 'nuther situation.

Ok, in your faith it’s a sin.

As a matter of fact, it’s a sin in our faith too. The thing we both have in common is that it USED to be perfectly acceptable to have more than one wife…in our case a whole lot more recently than in yours. --like a couple of millenia. 😉
In my experience, most Catholics know next to nothing about the Mormon faith. Being a Catholic has nothing to do with what we think about Mormons, or ice cream. 🙂

And fwiw, we don’t have anything in common with you when it comes to marriage. We don’t believe it ever was perfectly acceptable, in obedience to Christ, to have more than one wife. You get that idea exclusively from Mormonism.
 
In my experience, most Catholics know next to nothing about the Mormon faith. Being a Catholic has nothing to do with what we think about Mormons, or ice cream. 🙂

And fwiw, we don’t have anything in common with you when it comes to marriage. We don’t believe it ever was perfectly acceptable, in obedience to Christ, to have more than one wife. You get that idea exclusively from Mormonism.
What part of 'we haven’t practiced polygamy in over a century and think that it is a sin" seems to have escaped your notice?
 
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