Catholics- Would you kill Joseph Smith?

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nancy_dalrymple said:
šŸ™‚ Hi Soutane Iā€™m not a Mormon never was never will be THANK THE LORD. Ask any Mormon on here if I have defended Joseph Smith.I do love alot of them I have met,they are innocent and are not allowed to listen to negative things against their religion. Thats why I cant understand why their on this forum,unless to spy:eek:Check out my postings and you will see.Love ya, Nancy:)
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WE ARENā€™T ALLOWED TO LISTEN TO NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT [OUR] RELIGION??? :boggle:

We are not told what to read and what not to read, any of us. Quite the opposite; we are told to go out and read, and study, and learn as much as we can about everything THAT we can.

We ARE told that reading anti-stuff is a pure waste of time, but guess what? The people who tell us that are the people who have (gasp) actually READ the stuff and know whatā€™s in it.

People like me.

But for some reason, Mormons have their own minds and make their own decisions, and they are quite free to go read the claptrap if they want toā€“and many do. Most of those are as amused by the sheer silliness and inaccuracies of the vast majority of it as I am.

Who the flip do you think writes sites like FAIR, and other LDS apologetic sites? Trust me, the general authorities are too busy actually running the church to bother.

(shaking head in utter wonderā€¦)

Diana
 
William_M said:
If Joseph Smith were alive today, preaching the restored gospel, establishing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, would you kill him? Please assume that you will not be punished by the law, as those who did kill him were not punished.

I have read much on this forum, by Catholics, implying approval of the killing of Joseph Smith. For example. ā€œhe died in a gun fightā€ (one against 200), he was a con man, h was a polygmamist, etc.
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I am a former Mormon, and I do believe that he lied. However, I in no way support the murder of ANY man, and I mean that literally. Now we donā€™t know what happened when he was killed, none of us were there. So when people say he died in a gunfight, it doesnā€™t mean their justifying him being killed.

Thou shalt not murder. And yes, Catholics do believe in the ten commandents and they tell us that murder is a grave sin.

No I do not codone killing him, and neither should anyone else.
 
dianaiad said:
WE ARENā€™T ALLOWED TO LISTEN TO NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT [OUR] RELIGION??? :boggle:

We are not told what to read and what not to read, any of us. Quite the opposite; we are told to go out and read, and study, and learn as much as we can about everything THAT we can.

Diana
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1 Thessalonians 5:21 ā€œTest everything. Hold on to the good.ā€

Thus, we can read and study just about anything. However, only the good passes the test and is retained.
 
nancy_dalrymple said:
I herd Joseph Smith did draw his gun and shot two people before he died?(come back) love of Christ Nancy
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JS chose to trust his gun, which failed. Should he have placed his trust in God?

Mark 8:35 (King James Version) ā€œFor whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospelā€™s, the same shall save it.ā€

Rhetorical at this point, and a lesson only for the living.
 
po18guy said:
JS chose to trust his gun, which failed. Should he have placed his trust in God?

Mark 8:35 (King James Version) ā€œFor whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospelā€™s, the same shall save it.ā€

Rhetorical at this point, and a lesson only for the living.
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From reading the accounts of the incident, from those who participated in it and witnessed it (making allowances for the bias on both sides) we know the following facts: Joseph didnā€™t use his gun until after Hyrum was dead and members of the mob were actually getting into the room. He went to his brother, knelt for a moment, then rose and drew his gun.He fired three shots into the mob. The gun misfired. He then went to the window and stood there. He did not attempt to climb out of it. He simply stood thereā€¦and made an appeal for aid, at which point he was shot twice, fell partway out of the window, then the rest of the way. He was then propped against the house and used as target practice.

All firing into the room from the stair rail ceased when Joseph fired his gun at them. All remaining gunfire was concentrated on the window where Joseph was standing.

These are facts, checked and doublechecked by both the men inside and outside the building.

I dunno about you, but from this, I suspect that Joseph knew very well that he wasnā€™t getting out of the situation alive; I think he shot into the stair well to show those men that they werenā€™t going after unarmed and helpless prisoners so that they would stop shooting and think about what to do next. I think he then went to the window to deliberately draw fire away from the other two men. That his move to the window DID draw the fire away from the other two men and thus save their lives is incontrovertible.

Now we donā€™t know what went on in Josephā€™s mind, but his actions certainly support the idea that he was attempting to save the lives of the other men in the room, and succeeded at the cost of his own.

Did Joseph think that he might actually be hurting, or perhaps killing, the men he shot at? If he thought at all, probably. Were I in his position, I would be hoping like anything that the bullet I shot got the guy that killed my brotherā€”but we donā€™t know what Joseph was thinking. We only know what he actually did.

As for me, I remain a bit of a maverick. I donā€™t wish that Joseph had not used the gun.

I wish he had been better armed.
 
Iā€™m an ex-Mormon. I would not have advocated killing JS.

It only prompted the LDS to create in him in his death what he could never have been in his lifeā€¦ someone that they could honestly look up to. (well honestly be duped into believing he was by changing all his stories, burying the evidence against him, etc.)

Plus, as a Catholic, I do not believe that anyone should be murdered nor murder.

I think the point is that he is now hailed as a ā€œmartyrā€. But in my mind a martyr wouldnā€™t have had a gun in the first place.

Do they still sing ā€œPraise to the Manā€ in sacrament meetings these days?

in Christ
Steph
 
Hereā€™s the words to the famous Mormon hymn: ā€œPraise to the Manā€. Does anyone want to point out the errors?
  1. Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah! Jesus
    annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation, Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

chorus: Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven! Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.

Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren; Death cannot conquer the hero again.
  1. Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr; Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, Plead unto heaven while the earth lauds his fame.
  1. Great is his glory and endless his priesthood: Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom, Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.
  1. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know ā€œbrother Josephā€ again.
 
šŸ˜¦ Hello,Iā€™m thinking we should go on to another subject,like worshiping Gods or celestial terestial tarestail,I spelt it wrong, because we certaintly canā€™t bring back Smith or undo the past.But I can say that I do love the people but I do not nor will I believe Smith was anything in the line of Christain. And What he preached is not in the bible.Not even your teaching on celestrial is right for you put Christ in a lower part of heaven with the sinnersWhy dont you come out and say it? For your church I give you and your president 2nd thes:2:9-11 and Isaiah:66:1-4 ,and I bid you,good night.Iā€™ll be praying for you,still love ya:) admire,exault,and honor,the one who gave you life,not death.šŸ™‚ Nancy:thumbsup:
 
nancy_dalrymple said:
šŸ˜¦ Hello,Iā€™m thinking we should go on to another subject,like worshiping Gods or celestial terestial tarestail,I spelt it wrong, because we certaintly canā€™t bring back Smith or undo the past.But I can say that I do love the people but I do not nor will I believe Smith was anything in the line of Christain. And What he preached is not in the bible.Not even your teaching on celestrial is right for you put Christ in a lower part of heaven with the sinnersWhy dont you come out and say it? For your church I give you and your president 2nd thes:2:9-11 and Isaiah:66:1-4 ,and I bid you,good night.Iā€™ll be praying for you,still love ya:) admire,exault,and honor,the one who gave you life,not death.šŸ™‚ Nancy:thumbsup:
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Nancy, sweetie, why donā€™t you come out and say that you are a rider of unicorns and talk to dragonflies to make decisions about your financial future?

What?

You mean you donā€™t ride unicorns, and dragonflies would make poor financial counselors, even if you could get one to hold still long enough to ask it a question, so you donā€™t think you should come out and claim that you ride one and take advice from the other?

Well. Thatā€™s not an excuse. Iā€™ve just claimed that you do this.Thatā€™s enough to prove that you do. Now you just come out and admit it.
 
dianaiad said:
Nancy, sweetie, why donā€™t you come out and say that you are a rider of unicorns and talk to dragonflies to make decisions about your financial future?
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You think theyā€™d do a worse job that the yum-yums who put the world in the financial crisis itā€™s in now?
 
tundramom said:
Hereā€™s the words to the famous Mormon hymn: ā€œPraise to the Manā€. Does anyone want to point out the errors?
  1. Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah! Jesus
    annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation, Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

chorus: Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven! Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.

Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren; Death cannot conquer the hero again.
  1. Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr; Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, Plead unto heaven while the earth lauds his fame.
  1. Great is his glory and endless his priesthood: Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom, Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.
  1. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know ā€œbrother Josephā€ again.
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Wow! Where to start??? Sounds like an early form of programming, actually. Repeat as necessary until believed ā€œbeyond the shadow of a doubtā€.
 
dianaiad said:
From reading the accounts of the incident, from those who participated in it and witnessed it (making allowances for the bias on both sides) we know the following facts: Joseph didnā€™t use his gun until after Hyrum was dead and members of the mob were actually getting into the room. He went to his brother, knelt for a moment, then rose and drew his gun.He fired three shots into the mob. The gun misfired. He then went to the window and stood there. He did not attempt to climb out of it. He simply stood thereā€¦and made an appeal for aid, at which point he was shot twice, fell partway out of the window, then the rest of the way. He was then propped against the house and used as target practice.

All firing into the room from the stair rail ceased when Joseph fired his gun at them. All remaining gunfire was concentrated on the window where Joseph was standing.

These are facts, checked and doublechecked by both the men inside and outside the building.

I dunno about you, but from this, I suspect that Joseph knew very well that he wasnā€™t getting out of the situation alive; I think he shot into the stair well to show those men that they werenā€™t going after unarmed and helpless prisoners so that they would stop shooting and think about what to do next. I think he then went to the window to deliberately draw fire away from the other two men. That his move to the window DID draw the fire away from the other two men and thus save their lives is incontrovertible.

Now we donā€™t know what went on in Josephā€™s mind, but his actions certainly support the idea that he was attempting to save the lives of the other men in the room, and succeeded at the cost of his own.

Did Joseph think that he might actually be hurting, or perhaps killing, the men he shot at? If he thought at all, probably. Were I in his position, I would be hoping like anything that the bullet I shot got the guy that killed my brotherā€”but we donā€™t know what Joseph was thinking. We only know what he actually did.

As for me, I remain a bit of a maverick. I donā€™t wish that Joseph had not used the gun.

I wish he had been better armed.
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Unfortunately, there is still LDS spin in this story. I somehow fail to think that a man who fancied underage females, multiple wives, was convicted of civil fraud and who fairly brazenly sought political power is any kind of martyr. Especially one who went down shooting, or trying to shoot others.

Compare this to the 800 true martyrs of Otranto, Italy. By their behavior, true martyrs may be judged:

catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0807fea2.asp
 
dianaiad said:
Of course: Carthage Conspiracy: The Trial of the Accused Assassins of Joseph Smith by Dallin H. Oaks; Marvin S. Hill
  • Review: Inevitable Acquittal, Trial by Jury, and Trial by History Review: Inevitable Acquittal, Trial by Jury, and Trial by History Reviews in American History, Vol. 4, No. 3 (Sep., 1976), pp. 397-402
That do?
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Not really. Dallin Oaks isnā€™t an objective reporter. I am very suspicious of high-ranking Mormon ā€œhistoriansā€.
 
po18guy said:
I wish he had been an orthodox Christian.
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Itā€™s true. "orthodoxā€™ he certainly was not.

One thing, if he HAD been ā€˜orthodox,ā€™ he would have been eligible to be a member of the mob rather than its target.
 
po18guy said:
Unfortunately, there is still LDS spin in this story. I somehow fail to think that a man who fancied underage females, multiple wives, was convicted of civil fraud and who fairly brazenly sought political power is any kind of martyr. Especially one who went down shooting, or trying to shoot others.

Compare this to the 800 true martyrs of Otranto, Italy. By their behavior, true martyrs may be judged:

catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0807fea2.asp
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Where is there ā€œLDS spinā€ in this story? I was extremely careful about the language I used to describe the incidentā€“facts that were gleaned from the eyewitness accounts of participants both Mormon and non: no emotional language in the description of the events at all.

Well, except for the ā€˜shot to doll ragsā€™ part, but that was more a description of the result of the shooting than an emotional judgment of motive.

When I did begin to analyze those events, I very clearly said ā€œI think.ā€ and put disclaimers in there up the wazoo.

So. Would you care to show me where I changed any of the events from what actually happened? Where I left out anything? Added anything?
Where did I spin it, in other words?

In my own speculations of what I THINK Joseph may have been thinking, was my theory so implausible, or unsupported by the events?
 
Jerusha said:
Not really. Dallin Oaks isnā€™t an objective reporter. I am very suspicious of high-ranking Mormon ā€œhistoriansā€.
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Dallin Oaks is not a historian. He is one of the twelve apostles now, and in his past career has been an attorney, judge, professor of law at the University of Chicago Law School, president of Brigham Young University, and a former justice of the Utah Supreme Court. He has been considered as a candidate for the US Supreme Court.

He is highly respected, and in this particular case, is about as objective a reporter of the case as one can be; he was as critical of the goofs the prosecution made as he was of the actions of the defense. This book was peer reviewed (that means it was reviewed by many attorneys and law professors throughout the nation) and found to be (while somewhat boring and having a little problems stretching a cut and dried miscarriage of justice into a full fledged book) an accurate and objective look at the matter.

Nobody, in other words, but you have had a problem with his objectivity in this matter. As well, even you should approve of Marvin Hill. True, he is a Mormon and a professor of law at BYU, but he LIKED Fawn Brodieā€™s ā€œNo Man Knows My History.ā€

Be suspicious of him because he is LDS, of course. In fact, before I used the book as a reference, I went out and read the reviews to make certain that it was a peer reviewed, scholarly work that would stand up to challenges like yours.

I notice that you didnā€™t address my second reference, which was not written by a Mormon of any career description.
 
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