Catholocism the only true choice

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cazayoux said:
We can also refute the claim that ‘the church’ is invisible and includes all believers, because the church that Jesus founded must be a visible, authoritative church. If we disagree regarding faith and morals we need to be able to go to an authority to find out what is truth. How can we find that authority if the church is invisible?

The bible itself is authoritative, but then we get into two different people reading the same text and understanding it in different ways. Again, we need to go to the visible, authoritative church to know if either, or both, interpretations are (in)correct.
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awantz said:
I agree.
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Interesting that you agree with cazayoux, since what he wrote is thoroughly Catholic.

To which of the manifold visible, authoritative churches should we turn to sort out differences in scriptural interpretations?
 
estesbob said:
Because Scipture assure us God is not the author of confusion -when looking at the protestant world chaos and confusion reigns-there is no agreement on even the most basic doctrines concerning what is necessary for salvation or the place of Scripture.
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You are so wrong.
 
awantz said:
Maybe that is because Catholics and non Catholics are more alike that you realize.
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Oh, I’m well aware of that. I was a non-Catholic for many years, and know we have far more in common than not.

However, I’m still curious… cazayoux made a statement that “we need to go to the visible, authoritative church to know if either, or both, interpretations are (in)correct.”

You said, “I agree.”

If that’s the case, then to which visible, authoritative church shoudl we turn to sort out confusion over conflicting interpretations of the same divine text?
 
awantz said:
You are so wrong.
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I am ? So you are in agreement with the Mormons teachings on the nature of Chirst? The Presbyterians teachings on salvation? The Jehova Witnesses teachings on how Chirst died?The Seventh Day Adventist teacings that we MUST worship on Saturdays? The Luhterian teachngs on the nature of the Eucharist?
 
awantz said:
Maybe that is because Catholics and non Catholics are more alike that you realize.
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More alike? Shouldnt a Church of believers be ALL alike? If their are absolute truths shouldnt a Church agree on all of them?
 
djrakowski said:
If that’s the case, then to which visible, authoritative church shoudl we turn to sort out confusion over conflicting interpretations of the same divine text?
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God’s church. As far as interpretations, go back to the language they were originally written in (Hebrew and Greek).
 
estesbob said:
I am ? So you are in agreement with the Mormons teachings on the nature of Chirst? The Presbyterians teachings on salvation? The Jehova Witnesses teachings on how Chirst died?The Seventh Day Adventist teacings that we MUST worship on Saturdays? The Luhterian teachngs on the nature of the Eucharist?
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No, I’m saying you are wrong about non-Catholic Christians.
 
awantz said:
No, I’m saying you are wrong about non-Catholic Christians.
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Then you should be able to reconclie the huge differecnes in beliefs among Our sepreated Brehtern. You simply can not ,for example ,have a Chuch that has extreme, often diametrically opposed , views on what is neccessay for Salvation.
 
awantz said:
God’s church. As far as interpretations, go back to the language they were originally written in (Hebrew and Greek).
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Understood… I used to believe this as well.

However, God’s church (in the typical non-Catholic, invisible-church-of-all-believers incarnation) is spread throughout the world, and it has all manner of perspectives on leadership. Some have hierarchies with deacons, ministers and bishops (for example, Lutherans, Methodists and Anglicans), while others assert that each local church is completely independent of the others.

My former pastor knew both Hebrew and Greek, and he disagreed with the Catholic interpretations of scripture that also go back to these original languages. What now? What do we do when everyone has gone back to the original languages and still disagree with one another?

And if everyone needs to know Hebrew and Greek in order to have a proper understanding of scripture, where does that leave everyone in the invisible church who doesn’t know these languages? And why bother translating from them into the languages of the people? It sounds to me - and believe me, I’m not trying to mock your beliefs - like it’s sola scriptura, but only in the original languages, and translations are wholly unreliable. Have I got it right?
 
estesbob said:
More alike? Shouldnt a Church of believers be ALL alike? If their are absolute truths shouldnt a Church agree on all of them?
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Yes and I would love to see unity between all of God’s followers/ children. Of course and they do agree on most if not all absolute truths.
 
estesbob said:
Then you should be able to reconclie the huge differecnes in beliefs among Our sepreated Brehtern. You simply can not ,for example ,have a Chuch that has extreme, often diametrically opposed , views on what is neccessay for Salvation.
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They do agree. However, some add to it and yes it is wrong, but I can’t make them change.
 
awantz said:
Yes and I would love to see unity between all of God’s followers/ children. Of course and they do agree on most if not all absolute truths.
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No they dont-they dont even agree on what is necessary for salvation. You simply can not claim there is an invible Church of believers unless the believers believe the same thng,
 
awantz said:
Yes and I would love to see unity between all of God’s followers/ children.** Of course and they do agree on most if not all absolute truths.**
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I would love this to be the case, but it’s demonstrably false. I’ve been to Protestant churches that baptized infants and thought it necessary for salvation, and others that accepted only adult baptisms and thought it unnecessary for salvation. I’ve been to churches that believed in some form of real presence in communion, and others that denied it. I’ve been to churches that permitted crosses, crucifixes and similar artifacts, and others that believed them to be symbols of gross idolatry. I’ve been to churches in which it’s believed in salvation as a one-time commitment to Christ in which sins are covered by his righteousness, and still others that believed that God begins to gradually sanctify the soul by grace, through faith, unto good works, leading to final salvation.

All of these were Protestant churches. How can they, in any meaningful sense, be one church?
 
djrakowski said:
It sounds to me - and believe me, I’m not trying to mock your beliefs - like it’s sola scriptura, but only in the original languages, and translations are wholly unreliable. Have I got it right?
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I’m not sola scripture if that is what you think.
 
awantz said:
I’m not sola scripture if that is what you think.
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Sorry about that - please accept my apology.

However, the point still stands - the Bible is authoritative, but you need to know Greek and Hebrew to find out what it really says? Where does that leave everyone who doesn’t know these languages? And why bother with translations? And further, how do you know you can trust your leaders to have given you a proper interpretation?
 
estesbob said:
No they dont-they dont even agree on what is necessary for salvation. You simply can not claim there is an invible Church of believers unless the believers believe the same thng,
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If that is the way you feel then you obviously don’t understand what people outside your church believe.
 
djrakowski said:
Sorry about that - please accept my apology.

However, the point still stands - the Bible is authoritative, but you need to know Greek and Hebrew to find out what it really says? Where does that leave everyone who doesn’t know these languages? And why bother with translations? And further, how do you know you can trust your leaders to have given you a proper interpretation?
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Yes it is, but there is a power more authoritative and that is the Rama word of God. No, you don’t need to know Greek and Hebrew. Don’t, just take it word for word for what is written and if you are unsure about something pray about it. You can feel God telling you in your spirit.
 
awantz said:
God’s church. As far as interpretations, go back to the language they were originally written in (Hebrew and Greek).
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I started studying Greek a few years ago and since that time my views have become increasingly catholic.
 
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