Causes of atheism

[AquinaSavio]

iamaninja:

And btw: I’m sure ‘knowing’ that you’re living by manmade morals in the hopes that you’ll go to some fanciful supernatural haven must be really tough.

They are not manmade morals that we live by. Morality is completely based on God’s will. If something is contrary to God’s will, it is evil. I would rather live according to these [very difficult] principles now even if there were no God, than finding out that there is a God after it is too late.

 

[tilis]

Grandtheftcow:

Since atheists deny the existence of a God where do you think an atheist’s morality comes from? For you morality comes from God, the church, and the Bible. So what sources or reasoning do you think are behind the values of an atheist?

For an atheist, morality comes from either recognizing the natural law, but that is rare for an atheist, or from presonal preferances.

 

[tilis]

Mike_D30:

Belief in God is a matter of faith, no matter what your stance is, there’s zero proof of an existence of a supernatural God. Therefore it requires faith, not reason to believe in God.

I suggest you read a book. Because the assertion made above is so laughable, that I can barely keep a staight face while I read it.l

Mike_D30:

Second I completely disagree with saying it’s easier as an atheist. It isn’t, and your example is pointless because all data we can find shows athesists act no more immorally than practicing Christians, Jews, or Muslims. So obviously they aren’t choosing atheism so they can keep sinning, that’s a fallacy. I have a friend who is an atheist, and he has more inegrity and morals than anyone I know within my Church.

He may have integerity, but that is in spite of his atheism and not because of it. Furthremore, atheists can have premarital sex, live homosexual life styles, do drugs, etc. ad infinitum, without the fear of eternal damnation. That sounds much easier than Christianity.

Mike_D30:

And lastly it’s much tougher to accept you are alone in the world, nothing created you, no super being loves you, and when you die you a rotting corpse forgotten and gone. Rather than belieivng there’s a personal God who loves you, and will reward you with eternal heaven if you behave.

Wow. What lala world do you live in? Non-existence is way less frightening than hell. LOL. I would still prefer atheism be true.

 

[carol_marie]

I think some people look at all the evil in the world - all the suffering and decide that a “loving God” must not exist because why would He allow this?

I also think they look at the actions of some “religious” people & decide it must be bunk - because look at how THEY act?

Finally, as I said on another thread - when Christians say that the Bible is just a bunch of made up stories - not factual or to be believed literally - it’s easy for others to decide that Jesus & the rest is made up also.

 

[Mike_D30]

tilis:

I suggest you read a book. Because the assertion made above is so laughable, that I can barely keep a staight face while I read it.l

He may have integerity, but that is in spite of his atheism and not because of it. Furthremore, atheists can have premarital sex, live homosexual life styles, do drugs, etc. ad infinitum, without the fear of eternal damnation. That sounds much easier than Christianity.

Wow. What lala world do you live in? Non-existence is way less frightening than hell. LOL. I would still prefer atheism be true.

I’ll answer any and all your objections when you learn how to dialougue without patronizing people, good day.

But just to humor me, show me one proof that God exists, and that belief in God isn’t taken solely on faith. You see on a message board actually explaining your point is better than just patronizing people, see now you got me doing it, see how petty and ridiculous it is?

 

[tilis]

Mike_D30:

I’ll answer any and all your objections when you learn how to dialougue without patronizing people, good day.

But just to humor me, show me one proof that God exists, and that belief in God isn’t taken solely on faith. You see on a message board actually explaining your point is better than just patronizing people, see now you got me doing it, see how petty and ridiculous it is?

I see how ridiculous Atheism is. I am really tired because I just worked out, but later we can discuss all the deductive proofs for the existence of God. Also, we can discuss your so called arguments for his non-existence. But you must understand, the arguments developed by Thomas Aquinas have come along way, especially in light of the fact that they have been combined with the kalaam arguement developed by Islamic philosophers.

 

[erinann]

I think many religious people feel the presence of God/the Holy Spirit. Some apparently rely on an intellectualized belief, but I think in general what causes atheism is the loss of that sense of God’s presence in the world. From what I’ve seen this happens when people live through depressing, traumatic, or endlessly frivolous life events. Their relationships with other humans are damaged and they often feel disconnected from their relationship with God. And since God is ultimately too awesome to be nailed down and proven, or truly comprehended by humans, it is easy for a distressed human assume the worst - that there is no God of love and compassion.

Like someone said earlier, there are also intellectual atheists. I think these people elevate the importance of the intellect way too much. They tend to see their intellegence as proof that they’re better than religious people. They often attack the historical accuracy of the bible, as if all Christians take the creation and flood stories, etc., literally. They see no use for symbolism and ritual because they just don’t think that way - it’s not concrete and utilitarian enough for them.

 

[erinann]

carol marie:

Finally, as I said on another thread - when Christians say that the Bible is just a bunch of made up stories - not factual or to be believed literally - it’s easy for others to decide that Jesus & the rest is made up also.

Some stories in the bible are allogorical. That’s the way they were written. There is deeper meaning in them than literal history.

 

[Grandtheftcow]

Seems I’ve got a lot to reply to.

BlestOne:

Faith is a belief in something intangible. I submit to you that even an atheist must have some faith…faith that science is what drives us to believe tomorrow will come is still faith… A Christian, having seen the words and the works of God around him, takes the leap of faith that there is something much larger than himself, a divine omnipotent being that guides us. This in fact can be considered an educated outcome to the historical and present data in ones life. There is an old riddle that asks how much faith an angel has…the answer is none, they have seen God, they have no faith because it has been replaced by dwelling with God.

An Atheist has most likely seen the same empirical data on the historical and present proof of God but has interpreted the data differently. Their standard of judgement is based on physical proof of the continued existence of God not the initial proof.

Are you describing the same kind of faith though? An atheist may have a certain kind of faith in the scientific community but would he suspend disbelief or put any skepticism aside as he would have to do with religion?

As for your questions about my interpretations of Genesis I’d gladly participate but it would be much more appropriate as a new thread.
MikeD30:

I definitely see it as an obstacle for those outside the Church. As someone who has spent years as an agnostic (I never quite could grasp that everything was one massive accident as atheists will contend). But also I have had major issues in believing in all loving benevolent God, when our world appears to be in direct contradiction to that.

You seem to be equating probability with accident.

So why would someone make the jump from seeing the possibility of a creator or God to a God in the Christian, Judaism, or Islamic sense?
Loren 1of6:

If you want to know about atheists, you should ask atheists, not Catholics. If I want to enter the conversation, I can only do so with the understanding that I know nothing of the topic.

But if I wanted to know about atheism I’d only need to ask myself. What I’m interested in is how Catholics perceive atheists.

AquinaSavio:

My personal opinion of why atheists deny God’s existence coincides with a quote from Saint Augustine: “He who denies the existence of God has some reason for wishing that God did not exist.” I do not say this out of unkindness, and I am not judging any atheists.

So you like many others here think that atheists really do believe God exists but for one reason or another don’t want to acknowledge it? If they really did believe in God why are they not worried about the possibility of hell?

erinann:

Like someone said earlier, there are also intellectual atheists. I think these people elevate the importance of the intellect way too much. They tend to see their intellegence as proof that they’re better than religious people. They often attack the historical accuracy of the bible, as if all Christians take the creation and flood stories, etc., literally. They see no use for symbolism and ritual because they just don’t think that way - it’s not concrete and utilitarian enough for them.

Is religion inherently anti-intellectual then? Also if someone constantly modifies, changes, or even ignores parts of the Bible are they not essentially removing themselves from the faith?

 

[IanS]

Coming from someone who was raised in a very secular home:

Pride, rationalism, vices, selfishness, or justification if lustful behavior, are the main causes of atheism. Pride being the biggie from what I’ve seen. However, all lead to hopelessness and despair.

 

[chb03c]

I think it comes down to this:

An atheist will find themselves asking: Why do I need God?

 

[erinann]

Grandtheftcow:

Is religion inherently anti-intellectual then?

No, not anti-intellectual at all. There have been many books written and discussions had about theology that are intellectual. Also, Catholic schools and universities are as intellectually rigorous as secular institutions, so there isn’t a culture of anti-intellectualism in Catholicism.

When I say that some atheists rely too much on intellect, what I mean is they tend to think that if something can’t readily be grasped and nailed down by the left side of their brain then it must not exist. This is hard to explain, I guess. It’s sort of like religion is a poem or a beautiful piece of music and the atheist keeps trying to analyze and dissect it and consquently distracts or blinds himself from the possibility of being moved by it (I’m not saying atheists can’t appreciate art! I’m just trying to come up with an analogy).

Grandtheftcow:

Also if someone constantly modifies, changes, or even ignores parts of the Bible are they not essentially removing themselves from the faith?

No, the bible is not God. It may be divinely inspired but the divine inspiration is filtered through the human pen. And when it is read, the words are being interpreted by human minds.

The bible should be read and re-read, discussed, mulled over. There’s little point in reading it like it’s a straight forward, shallow instruction manual. It’s just not that type of book.

 

[wjohnson]

IanS:

Coming from someone who was raised in a very secular home:

Pride, rationalism, vices, selfishness, or justification if lustful behavior, are the main causes of atheism. Pride being the biggie from what I’ve seen. However, all lead to hopelessness and despair.

I’d have to agree, Intellectual Pride seem’s to be the driving force motivating the few atheists I know personally. The ones I’m aquainted with all look down on believers as somehow not as intelligent as themselves.

 

[Mike_D30]

Grandtheftcow:

So why would someone make the jump from seeing the possibility of a creator or God to a God in the Christian, Judaism, or Islamic sense?

Well I can look at probability, and I liked the probability of something infinitely more intelligent than us guiding the order of the Universe.

As for as going from believing in God or a God, to the God of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity well that’s a long story. But essentially I came to a point where I accepted there is order to my reality, I’m not just a cosmic chance happening. There is a natural law that is clear to everyone, even the most abhorent individuals are well aware of this law, it surpasses instinct and learned behavior. There is essentially good or bad in the world, and the Abrahamic God is the creator of all. I like how it is described as a fallen world by Christianity, rather than a dualistic world, it just made sense to me. As C.S. Lewis said in a dualistic world two opposing forces, one good, one bad would require both to equal, so then in essence neither God. Yet in Christianity that isn’t the case. In Christianity all was created by God, and was good even Satan, but fell. To me it relates well to what I view in the world.

If you expect me to say I had some powerful conversion at an alter after someone died or something, I can’t give you that. I can’t give you that I heard God’s voice showing me the way. No for me it was a long drawn out process of which I still going through. It’s probably a story for another time. I will say I’ve never seen an apparition, never heard any confirmation from one prayer, yet ehre I am a practicing Catholic, who knows.

 

[IanS]

wjohnson:

I’d have to agree, Intellectual Pride seem’s to be the driving force motivating the few atheists I know personally. The ones I’m aquainted with all look down on believers as somehow not as intelligent as themselves.

This is what I call, “being educated beyond ones own intelligence”.

 

[IanS]

One other thought. We ALL worship some sort of god, even atheists. I can now clearly see what my false gods were before Christ found me and carried me home on His sacred shoulders. That doesn’t mean they don’t still come to spar with me.

I would like for any atheist reading this to think about what his or her god is they worship. Is it money, career, popularity, politics, or power? Is it a vice like alcohol, gambling, drugs or sexual pleasure? Is it another person like a friend, celebrity, spouse or child? Is it rationalism, relativism, or science?

Whatever is the number one top priority in your life or whatever you cling to the most is/are your god(s). However, all fall short of the one true LORD our God, are imperfect, and will leave you empty in the end. I should know.

 

[Loren_1of6]

Grandtheftcow:

But if I wanted to know about atheism I’d only need to ask myself. What I’m interested in is how Catholics perceive atheists.

So you are looking for our perceptions, opinions, and beliefs about you? Again, I would say that the specific reasons for choosing atheism are as many as the number of atheists.

If I were pressed further to come up with “general guidelines,” I suppose that those would include pride, the attitude that I don’t need God, and despair, the feeling that God wasn’t there when I needed Him. In either case, I would encourage the atheist to keep seeking.

Some things are much harder for atheists than for religious. My uncle went through AA and got stuck on the step that requires belief in a higher power. He finally came up with a power that managed to exclude God and has been sober for years, but that struggle would have been much easier if he could have embraced his Catholic upbringing.

I think that death must be scary to an atheist because it is the absolute end. If you are going to die anyway, what reason do you have to do anything? It must be frightening to consider that your life and death will only benefit the worms that will eventually turn your body into dirt. As a Catholic who tries to live a just life, I have the hope that my life will bring others to eternal life with God in heaven after we die.

 

[Digger71]

wjohnson:

I’d have to agree, Intellectual Pride seem’s to be the driving force motivating the few atheists I know personally. The ones I’m aquainted with all look down on believers as somehow not as intelligent as themselves.

I see atheism as a perfectly normal reaction to the analysis of the god hypothesis. Leaving aside my own faith, I see the following.

1. Theistic explanations for physical events and phenomina have lost to naturalistic explanations of the same events. Where once there was gods punishment in flood, famines, storms or what ever, now we have mechanics of different complexity.
2. Many religions are seemingly recreating the parent-child relationship. As Daddy is to a child, God is to an adult. In this context it is hard to accept that theists have ever truly grown up and developed independent, fully formed conscience. Rather we appear to present nothing but rationalisations of rules we have accepted on faith.
3. Religion is seriously damaged by the determined recruitment of children and their indoctrination in to churches before a fully formed adult intelligence is displayed. If our arguments are so compelling and the truth so obvious then we would not need to target the young and impressionable.
4. The proofs of religion are based mostly on the appearance of design, without evidence of design. This harks back to point 1, but reflects a more scientific view which ‘wonders’ at the strong, weak forces, the location of the earth and the bacteria flagellum. By contrast we know that everthing designed needs tools, a workshop and leaves marks of workmanship…and these are missing.
5. Morals, ethics and consciences are explicable in terms of social learning and the natural instincts/control methods of social animals.
   5.1 There is absolute unity between humans and the observable animal kingdom. There is no real boundry, just degrees. Thus the claim humans are special is at best self serving, vanity. Our amazing ability to exploit resources without consideration of consequences is animalistic.
6. Religion, or at least the morals claims of religion are seriously discredited by us, the religious.

And those are just for starters.

In my opinion the rational arguments lie with the atheists

sigh

 

[R_McGeddon]

AquinaSavio:

My personal opinion of why atheists deny God’s existence coincides with a quote from Saint Augustine: “He who denies the existence of God has some reason for wishing that God did not exist.”

Atheists do not deny god’s existence, for that would require him to exist in the first place. Atheists don’t deny they just don’t believe. There’s a big difference between the two.

 

[siamesecat]

tilis:

First of all, belief in God is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of reason. Second, I would much prefer that God not exist. If he did not exist, I could live as I choose, do whatever I want, and not have to face judgement and possibly hell after death. There would simply be nothing, which is not frightening at all. But as it is, God does exist, so I must order my life in accordance with his commands and desires. That is much more challenging. Even still, my eternity is not certain. I may fail and still go to hell. That is terrifying. Atheism, is much preferable.

Really? I’m not a total atheist, I guess more of an agnostic, but I really wish I was able to believe in God. I’d much rather have guidance on how to make decisions, explanations for seemingly meaningless events, and the belief that there’s a Heaven I can go to and reunite with people who have died. I’d much rather have that security than go around doing whatever I want (mainly because I don’t do all that much bad stuff.) As for those who say it’s a choice, I disagree. I wish I believed in God but I can’t force myself into believing in God anymore than I can force myself to believe in the Tooth Fairy. Both ideas seem ridiculous and superstituios to me, so I just can’t grasp them as fact.