Causes of atheism

[Gilbert_Keith]

How can the belief that we can get along fine without God be arrogant when someone doesnt believe in God in the first place?
The lack of belief in God is arrogant because you may not believe in God, but there is no way you can prove that God does not exist. If you demand proof for the existence of God, you should also be demanding the same kind of proof for the non-existence of God. You can’t do it. Such proof is unobtainable. So you dismiss God with a flick of the intellectual wrist as an irrelevant issue. If that isn’t arrogance … not even keeping your mind open to the possibility that God exists … I call that unmitigated atheistic arrogance.

I imagine you have a more pleasant euphamism for it.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Mrs Abbott

Anytime there’s tragedy, God’s existence is doubted.
Generally it more often works the other way. In times of tragedy more people turn to God than away from God.

 

[R_McGeddon]

Gilbert Keith:

when they realize they are not going to win any converts here.

I find this interesting, I’ve never known ANY atheist try to convert somebody but I have seen countless religious people try to convert the atheist.

Just an observation.

 

[IanS]

mrs_abbott:

I’ve met one atheist in my life and he was Catholic, at one time, but I don’t think his faith was that strong to begin with. He claimed to be an atheist after teaming up with some firefighters to do some volunteer work. He saw alot of destruction and alot of death (he was helping with the wildfires in California) and after he came back from that, he announced that he no longer believed in God because “if there was a god, he wouldn’t let all this happen”. It’s a classic argument that I’ve heard from non-atheists too. Anytime there’s tragedy, God’s existence is doubted.

Interesting you would mention volunteer firefighting, because that’s what I do. I have also witnessed my share of tragic scenes. However, I also know the value of suffering and have seen with my own eyes how God can draw a greater good out of any tragedy, whether we choose to notice it or not. I have a feeling he was somebody just looking for an excuse. If it wasn’t firefighting, then what would his excuse be?

 

[IanS]

R McGeddon:

I find this interesting, I’ve never known ANY atheist try to convert somebody but I have seen countless religious people try to convert the atheist.

Just an observation.

Perhaps I should introduce you to some members of my family.

 

[R_McGeddon]

Gilbert Keith:

The lack of belief in God is arrogant

This kind of statement is arrogant aswell.
Gilbert Keith:

you should also be demanding the same kind of proof for the non-existence of God.

Non-existent things don’t leave proof behind, how can they if they don’t exist?

 

[kildare]

Cause of Atheism?
They are many, and usually it is a combination of reasons, but it boils down its lack of knowledge and perception. In other words its reliance on what we have here in our hands(metaphorical).
I think I can apply Jesus’s parable about the servants who were given differing amounts of money by their master. While the first two invested and were rewarded, the last one didnt and was punished. He didnt do financially what we are suppose to do spiritually/cognetively…make that great leap of faith.
The athiest is content to stay put with what he knows, but he is not progessing anywhere in the end and its a dead end.

 

[mrs_abbott]

IanS:

If it wasn’t firefighting, then what would his excuse be?

Who knows? I think he uses it as his main excuse when it’s probably linked to a little bit of laziness on his part not to seek out proof of God’s existence.

 

[Urf]

How can the belief that we can get along fine without God be arrogant when someone doesnt believe in God in the first place?
The lack of belief in God is arrogant because you may not believe in God, but there is no way you can prove that God does not exist. If you demand proof for the existence of God, you should also be demanding the same kind of proof for the non-existence of God.

Honestly, what the flip? You’re going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that it is arrogant because you cannot prove that god doesnt exist. So does that make you arrogant for believing in God even though you cant prove that God does exist? You seem to be missing the point of Atheism. It is the BELIEF (emphasis on -->belief<–) that there is no God. Similar to the belief that there is a God.

You can’t do it. Such proof is unobtainable. So you dismiss God with a flick of the intellectual wrist as an irrelevant issue. If that isn’t arrogance … not even keeping your mind open to the possibility that God exists … I call that unmitigated atheistic arrogance.

Once again, this is what I was referring to as arrogance. It is ok for you to choose belief in God and dismiss any possibility that God does not exist, but when someone else does the same from the other side, suddenly it is a horrible horrible thing. Like I said, this is what I’m talking about. Complete inability to see anything but one’s own side.

I imagine you have a more pleasant euphamism for it.

A tone of undeserved superiority really doesnt help your case in case you were wondering.

I find this interesting, I’ve never known ANY atheist try to convert somebody but I have seen countless religious people try to convert the atheist.

Just an observation.

Oh, the irony.

 

[erinann]

coyote:

First of all, I am not an atheist. I am, however, increasingly more agnostic. Why? I hope to sum it up by referring to the Bible passage that says, RE: False Prophets “You will know them by their fruits”.
I find the “fruits” of the faithful to be increasingly repugnant and alarming. Hypocrisy, intolerance, religous based hatred and violence, willful ignorance that denies even common sense, doctrinal arrogance and conceit, censorship, repression, harrassment…

Are you sure the people you’re referring to are actually faithful? If people twist and corrupt their practice of a religion to serve their own selfish needs, how does that throw doubt on the existance of God, or the validity of that religion when practiced sincerely?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

McGeddon

Non-existent things don’t leave proof behind, how can they if they don’t exist?

Have you EVER taken a course in logic? Consider doing so. Or at least count ten before you post absurdities like the above. (Now, no doubt, you’re going to call me arrogant because I caught you in an absurdity.)

You assume God does not exist without proof that God does not exist and then you insist that you can’t prove something does not exist if it does not exist.

Talk about circular reasoning!

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Urf

Are you being intellectually honest?

Every atheist I have ever know has never characterized atheism as a belief, but as a fact. Every atheist I have ever known has demanded proof that God exists from the theist, but always offers an empty hand when the same proof is demanded of him that God does not exist.

 

[erinann]

Gilbert Keith:

Mrs Abbott

Anytime there’s tragedy, God’s existence is doubted.
Generally it more often works the other way. In times of tragedy more people turn to God than away from God.

For those that doubt God during a tragedy-- I don’t think they’re actively turning away from God, but that they feel lost and can’t reconcile a loving God with feelings of overwhelming pain and despair. I think alot of these people will come to believe in God again if they have the support of someone who can relate. For example, alot of people regain faith in God in 12-step groups because they have meaningful support and wise guidance.

 

[erinann]

R McGeddon:

I find this interesting, I’ve never known ANY atheist try to convert somebody but I have seen countless religious people try to convert the atheist.

Just an observation.

I’ve seen atheists try to convert people and I’ve had an atheist try to convert me, in an extremely condescending way.

 

[coyote]

Gilbert Keith:

Urf

No wonder these discussions never get anywhere, it’s simply arrogance.

Another way to look at it is to ask which view is surely more arrogant:

The view that we cannot get along without God?

Or

The view that we can get along just fine without God?

Embrace your faith.
Just don’t try to enforce it.

 

[coyote]

Gilbert Keith:

O.K. I understand your frustration, having been there myself. But I think it is a mistake to say we don’t get anywhere debating with [religious zealots]/atheists. By debating them, we are able to show them that the objections [we]/they have to religion are ill founded. That doesn’t mean they are going to admit they are wrong. What is accomplished is that debate gives [religious zealots]/atheists reasons to rethink their opinion of religion.

This argument doesn’t really work the other way round either.

 

[coyote]

erinann:

Are you sure the people you’re referring to are actually faithful? If people twist and corrupt their practice of a religion to serve their own selfish needs, how does that throw doubt on the existance of God, or the validity of that religion when practiced sincerely?

They vociferously claim to be the MOST faithful. I have encountered almost all of them as regular posters on this site.

The religious twisting and manipulations for selfish agendas IS what turns me away from RELIGION. I don’t doubt the existance of god.

I value the encouraging tone of what you have posted.

 

[Urf]

Gilbert Keith:

Urf

Are you being intellectually honest?

Every atheist I have ever know has never characterized atheism as a belief, but as a fact. Every atheist I have ever known has demanded proof that God exists from the theist, but always offers an empty hand when the same proof is demanded of him that God does not exist.

Based on your posts here I cant really see why a reasonable atheist would want to have a discussion with you. Arguments that begin with “All the ____ that I’ve met” usually are based on… you get where this is going.

 

[R_McGeddon]

Gilbert Keith:

Have you EVER taken a course in logic? Consider doing so.

If you don’t believe my statement was logical, then I suggest it is YOU that needs a course in logic.
Gilbert Keith:

Or at least count ten before you post absurdities like the above. (Now, no doubt, you’re going to call me arrogant because I caught you in an absurdity.

How is the statement that non-existent things don’t leave any evidence, an absurdity??? I would call you a little lacking in education, if you think logic is absurd, not arrogant.
Gilbert Keith:

You assume God does not exist without proof that God does not exist and then you insist that you can’t prove something does not exist if it does not exist.

Talk about circular reasoning!

Circular reasoning is using the bible to prove god, logic is using evidence. So if you have any, bring it to the table.

 

[Grandtheftcow]

There are a lot of interesting posts and varying viewpoints in this thread. I wish I had more time to be an active participant.

IanS:

I would like for any atheist reading this to think about what his or her god is they worship. Is it money, career, popularity, politics, or power? Is it a vice like alcohol, gambling, drugs or sexual pleasure? Is it another person like a friend, celebrity, spouse or child? Is it rationalism, relativism, or science?

My answer would be none.

Family and a secure financial future are important in life but can they really be equated to worship and a god?

You seem to hold the belief that without worshiping a god someone must replace that god with something or someone else in order to give meaning to his or her life. For atheists that isn’t necessarily true.

A common question I’m asked is “If there isn’t a god then why is life worth living?”

I find this view rather odd. I’ve always asked myself what makes life for these people miserable enough that they would want to end it if they couldn’t find a paradise in the afterlife. Is it because an afterlife is so ingrained into the beliefs of Christianity?

AquinaSavio:

I still say that atheists just don’t want him to exist. I don’t think that anyone can deny the need for a Creator as opposed to a “Big Bang.”

Science has proven that the “big bang” is in fact the earliest point in our universe and even the Catholic Church has accepted it as truth, however what had caused the big bang is still up for debate.

Urf:

It seems like most Catholics posting in this thread think that all atheists

a) know that Catholicism is the only right way but are in denial

b) are angry and unhappy people because they wont accept God and are wrong

No wonder these discussions never get anywhere, it’s simply arrogance.

Yes those are the views that the participants in this thread seem to have but I wouldn’t simply label it as arrogance. You have to keep in mind that both sides view themselves and the universe completely differently and even think and understand in a different way. Those who believe in God have trouble comprehending how someone can live without that belief and as a result have to try and rationalize why someone would reject the idea of a god or higher power.
Gilbert Keith:

The lack of belief in God is arrogant because you may not believe in God, but there is no way you can prove that God does not exist. If you demand proof for the existence of God, you should also be demanding the same kind of proof for the non-existence of God. You can’t do it. Such proof is unobtainable. So you dismiss God with a flick of the intellectual wrist as an irrelevant issue. If that isn’t arrogance … not even keeping your mind open to the possibility that God exists … I call that unmitigated atheistic arrogance.

The burden of proof does lay on the side of religion in this case. I see no evidence of a god who watches or partakes in our universe. The events as described in Genesis are incompatible with what science has proven and Noah’s flood when described as a global flood are beyond the realm of possibility.

How does demanding a lack of proof and claims of arrogance help your position?

Kildare:

Cause of Atheism?
They are many, and usually it is a combination of reasons, but it boils down its lack of knowledge and perception. In other words its reliance on what we have here in our hands(metaphorical).
I think I can apply Jesus’s parable about the servants who were given differing amounts of money by their master. While the first two invested and were rewarded, the last one didnt and was punished. He didnt do financially what we are suppose to do spiritually/cognetively…make that great leap of faith.
The athiest is content to stay put with what he knows, but he is not progessing anywhere in the end and its a dead end.

You seem to be implying an ignorance and unwillingness to learn among atheists. You also seem to believe atheists lack a necessary perception (faith) to see the Christian god. An unfortunate position if that is what you do believe.