CCC 1498 indulgences.

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Can you have a changed heart and mind with no outward deeds?

The sacrament of penance is confession to a catholic priest.
If one does not personally feel like confessing can they really have a changed heart and mind? I don’t know. 🤷
one is to be penitent another is to do penance…A clear difference! A changed heart and mind ultimately create a changed outward action…But a changed outward action does not necessarily create a changed heart and mind.
So, again my question is How is an indulgence recieved?
Is it an outward deed or a changed heart and mind?
 
one is to be penitent another is to do penance…A clear difference! A changed heart and mind ultimately create a changed outward action…But a changed outward action does not necessarily create a changed heart and mind.
I think there is more back-and-forth than you are allowing for. If you don’t act on your “changed heart and mind,” your heart and mind can “un-change.” This is why the doctrine of eternal security is obviously wrong (unless accompanied by a robust doctrine of predestination). Neither direction (external-internal or internal-external) can be taken for granted. Progress toward holiness consists of acting on our inner impulses toward God, which in turn strengthens those impulses.

Edwin
 
Why is it that TO ME indulgences, purgatory and absolution by confession seem to deny the atoning nature of Christ sacrifice upon the cross? Do I look to simplistically at things?
 
one is to be penitent another is to do penance…A clear difference! A changed heart and mind ultimately create a changed outward action…But a changed outward action does not necessarily create a changed heart and mind.
Non sequitur…conclusion does not follow premise.

If one changes one’s actions then it follows that there is some sort of change of mind (metanoia) that has precipitated that action. Of course, who will know that except God. All we can see is fruit…
So, again my question is How is an indulgence recieved?
Is it an outward deed or a changed heart and mind?
Both…
 
Why is it that TO ME indulgences, purgatory and absolution by confession seem to deny the atoning nature of Christ sacrifice upon the cross? Do I look to simplistically at things?
If we were animal, plants, or pre-programmed robots Christs sacrifice on the cross would automatically be applied directly to us, there being no way to work it otherwise.
Freewilled creatures, though, must choose to accept it, thats the point. And they must know when they have accepted it.

Bit like when Christ healed the blind man, He might have said and done nothing - just walked away and left the man completely healed.
But instead He choose to use spittle and mud, and say the words, and give the man a set of instructions to follow. Then the man found he was healed.

The things you list above are the ways He chose to apply His sacrifice to us.
 
Why is it that TO ME indulgences, purgatory and absolution by confession seem to deny the atoning nature of Christ sacrifice upon the cross? Do I look too simplistically at things?
Yes Simon,… I think so. This is something that I have often considered in discussions with n-Cs.

As you know, we have a scriptural basis for all these things.

How could something deny the atonement of Christ when it rest squarely upon that atonement and is a mechanism that He authorized and empowered?:ehh:

I have long thought that n-C religions over simplify Christianity is an unhealthy way. 🤷
 
Yes Simon,… I think so. This is something that I have often considered in discussions with n-Cs.

As you know, we have a scriptural basis for all these things.

How could something deny the atonement of Christ when it rest squarely upon that atonement and is a mechanism that He authorized and empowered?:ehh:
I don’t think indulgences do deny the atonement. However, that doesn’t make them a correct or useful “mechanism.” I think that the notion of temporal punishment as a legal debt is flawed from the start. The only “temporal punishment” is the pain involved in detaching ourselves from sin. If indulgences are simply declarations by the Church that certain actions will (if done with the right intention) help detach ourselves from sin, I have no problem with them. But this is clearly not how they were traditionally regarded.

Edwin
 
I don’t think indulgences do deny the atonement. However, that doesn’t make them a correct or useful “mechanism.” I think that the notion of temporal punishment as a legal debt is flawed from the start. The only “temporal punishment” is the pain involved in detaching ourselves from sin. If indulgences are simply declarations by the Church that certain actions will (if done with the right intention) help detach ourselves from sin, I have no problem with them. But this is clearly not how they were traditionally regarded.

Edwin
Help me understand the term temporal punishment, is this the course of action given from God as a result of our sins, or is the temporal punishment the fasting, giving of indulgences, almsgiving so on?
 
See and I don’t see it, in scripture anyways.
But again… here you have a pre-conceived idea that everything has to be in the Bible to begin with. I realize that is unsettling to reject, but ya have to deal with what is there. Sola Scriptura is, in itself, an oversimplification of Christian doctrine. As Jimmy Buffett sings, “The God’s honest truth is- It’s not that simple.” 🙂
I don’t think indulgences do deny the atonement. However, that doesn’t make them a correct or useful “mechanism.” I think that the notion of temporal punishment as a legal debt is flawed from the start. The only “temporal punishment” is the pain involved in detaching ourselves from sin. If indulgences are simply declarations by the Church that certain actions will (if done with the right intention) help detach ourselves from sin, I have no problem with them. But this is clearly not how they were traditionally regarded.

Edwin
Can you suggest a better way to execute the ministry of binding and loosing? I can’t.

If the question is about temporal punishment for sins then I would point you to the account of David and Bathsheba in 2nd Samuel 12:1: And the LORD sent Nathan to David. He came to him, and said to him, “There were two men in a certain city, the one rich and the other poor.
2: The rich man had very many flocks and herds;
3: but the poor man had nothing but one little ewe lamb, which he had bought. And he brought it up, and it grew up with him and with his children; it used to eat of his morsel, and drink from his cup, and lie in his bosom, and it was like a daughter to him.
4: Now there came a traveler to the rich man, and he was unwilling to take one of his own flock or herd to prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him, but he took the poor man’s lamb, and prepared it for the man who had come to him.”
5: Then David’s anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, “As the LORD lives, the man who has done this deserves to die;
6: and he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.”
7: Nathan said to David, “You are the man. Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul; 8: and I gave you your master's house, and your master's wives into your bosom, and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah; and if this were too little, I would add to you as much more. 9: Why have you despised the word of the LORD, to do what is evil in his sight? You have smitten Uri'ah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10: Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised me, and have taken the wife of Uri'ah the Hittite to be your wife.' 11: Thus says the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun.
12: For you did it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.’”
13: David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.
14: Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die."

15: Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uri’ah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick.
16: David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground.
17: And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground; but he would not, nor did he eat food with them.
18: On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead; for they said, “Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us; how then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm.”
19: But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David perceived that the child was dead; and David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.”
 
Help me understand the term temporal punishment, is this the course of action given from God as a result of our sins, or is the temporal punishment the fasting, giving of indulgences, almsgiving so on?
You are a limpet. You are stuck-fast to a rock [sin, attachment to creatures].
Forgiveness of sin, ie. from the guilt of sin - alone, happens at confession when you are promptly knocked off your rock [absolved].

Temporal punishment is like the effects of sin generally, your stickiness, your tendency towards sticking to another rock. In perfect justice this must be dealt with also.
Indulgences - are reliant on you first being knocked off your rock [confession], then depending your desire and efforts towards landing upside-down [so you cannot stick], the Church [a passing playfull child on the beach] may grant your wish seeing your efforts, and use its [the childs] God-given power of limb and imagination to…ahem…assist in placing you upside-down, and so of course removing, naturally, your tendency to stick.

Finally on entering heaven you first pass through fire [boiling water/stew-medium, rare, or well done, depending on how tough you are], after which you no longer have any desire or power to stick to rocks.
 
Why is it that TO ME indulgences, purgatory and absolution by confession seem to deny the atoning nature of Christ sacrifice upon the cross?
You don’t think that indulgences negate the all-sufficiency of the cross? It was Jesus who took our punishment. He took our place so that we do not have to suffer any punishment for our sins so that we might be made right with God. I am not saying that sins have consequences and punishments. I am saying that being made right with God is not by our suffering, but by Christ’s.

“Surely our griefs** He Himself bore**, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed. 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray. Each of us has turned to his own way. **But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him,” **(Isaiah 53:4-6).
 
CCC 1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.

Notice how it does’nt say you are God and you forgive yourself and others sins as God.

That ‘is obtained’ … but do you confess to obtain forgivness in your faith?
 
CCC 1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.

Notice how it does’nt say you are God and you forgive yourself and others sins as God.

That ‘is obtained’ … but do you confess to obtain forgivness in your faith?
The proper term would be to repent!
I understand confession itself is right, it is the thought of absolution via a priest that seems greatly unbiblical.
 
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law,” (Rom. 3:28).
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness,” (Rom. 4:3).
“But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,” (Rom. 4:5).
**“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” (Rom. 5:1). **
**“Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him,” (Rom. 5:9). **
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God,” (Eph. 2:8).
 
The proper term would be to repent!
I understand confession itself is right, it is the thought of absolution via a priest that seems greatly unbiblical.
How so? Wasn’t God’s power to physically heal allowed to flow through the apostles? So why is is so hard to believe the His power to forgive can flow through the priest?
 
How so? Wasn’t God’s power to physically heal allowed to flow through the apostles? So why is is so hard to believe the His power to forgive can flow through the priest?
Why did Christ die on the cross?
 
Temporal Punishment is to repair damage even after the sin is forgiven. Temporal Punishment is accepted as punishment inflicted here on earth or purgatory.

Let me try and explain - an individual commits a sin (lets say purposely spills water on the floor). He is truly sorry and goes to Confession to ask forgivness as sin furthers us from God.

He is forgiven but the water he left on the floor still needs to be cleaned up. Confession remits the Eternal Punishment but only part of the Temporal. By doing penance such as Prayer, Fasting, Works of Mercy, Almsgiving and acceptance of our sufferings here on earth, we can help make satisfaction for our sins.

Why do forgiven people have to suffer the consequences of sin in this life?
It is called Vindicatory Punishment or payment of debt. I love this because it allows me to be involved in mercy for what I did because I would rather suffer here on earth than in Purgatory. What we don’t remit here on earth will be remitted in Purgatory - and how pleasing to Our Lord to see us be truly sorry and accepting pains here than to die and have to purge them in Purgatory.

As the Council of Trent put it, The Temporal Punishment remains “before access can be opened to the Kingdom of Heaven”

A wonderful Catholic Priest told me this, "while on earth we wear the crown of thorns like Our Lord, and if we live right pleasing Christ as best we can, when we die and finally reach Heaven that crown of thorns will be replaced with a crown of roses.
 
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