CCC on Muslims

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jam070406 said:
Perhaps you should start reading the Gospels. The beatitudes are quite beautiful. 👍
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What a better place the world would be if people kept the sermon on the mount close to their hearts at all times.
 
Well we believe there is only one God, the Father , Son and Holy Spirit, and we believe he created you too Rossum, but you don’t believe in him.🙂
 
We can argue about whether the sweater you wore yesterday was blue or green, but we are still talking about the same sweater. And we can argue about whether or not you wore a sweater yesterday, and yet we are still talking about you.

Likewise, when discussing God, who is beyond all mere things, Jews and Muslims can find the Christian account of God inadequate, but still recognize that Christians are in fact talking about God. There is, after all, only one God and that God calls all humanity to Divine Union.
 
Hypatia said:
We can argue about whether the sweater you wore yesterday was blue or green, but we are still talking about the same sweater. And we can argue about whether or not you wore a sweater yesterday, and yet we are still talking about you.

Likewise, when discussing God, who is beyond all mere things, Jews and Muslims can find the Christian account of God inadequate, but still recognize that Christians are in fact talking about God. There is, after all, only one God and that God calls all humanity to Divine Union.
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As followers of Jesus Christ, God incarnate, we must confess that there is no other name under which one can be saved. There are not multiple paths/sweater colors.
 
jam070406 said:
As followers of Jesus Christ, God incarnate, we must confess that there is no other name under which one can be saved. There are not multiple paths/sweater colors.
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I didn’t understand the question to be about “salvation”, but rather, what we are talking/thinking about when we say/think “God”.

Neither were you, both, wearing and not wearing a sweater (at the hypothetical moment about which we are hypothetically arguing), nor is the sweater both blue and green (and least in the same sense, and if it turns out the sweater had blue and green stripes or some such, then we were both wrong as much as both right).

To say that Jews, Christians and Muslims are all worshipping the same God does not preclude one or more of those groups from being, in some sense, wrong about who they understand God to be.

I presume Catholics are making, more or less, that same point.
 
rossum said:
Indeed, they are. And they are one of the reasons Jesus is usually considered to have been a Bodhisattva.

rossum
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Well then why pay $500 a hour for a Budda lessons when we got it for free just reading the Gosples. Sounds like you got taken.🙂
 
ringil said:
You seem to know a lot about the specific in’s and out’s of the afterlife. Most of us admit that we cannot know the mind of God and comprehend His infinite Mercy. 🤷

Perhaps the highly concrete and specific nature of your belief system in this area gives you a sense of security.
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Srsly? You mean that if someone, a muslim perhaps, hears the Gospel, rejects the Gospel, and continues to live in their own little system that they go to Heaven? Well then, what on Earth did Jesus have to die for? I already addressed the lack of hearing the Gospel, so that’s a moot point.

Allow me to throw some verses your way:

1 John 2:22:
22 Who is a liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father. He that confesses the Son has the Father also.
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Islam denies the Son. (see verse 35 below from surah 19 (Maryam))

Galatians 1:6-10
6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. 7 Which is not another: only there are some that trouble you and would pervert the gospel of Christ. **8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. **10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
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An “angel” from “heaven” preached islam to mohammed. That “angel” preached a different gospel. He (angel and mohammed) is, in St. Paul’s own words, anathema. I would not be surprised if that “angel” was Lucifer himself.

1 John 4:1-3
1 Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this is the spirit of God known.** Every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that dissolves Jesus is not of God. And this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he comes: and he is now already in the world**.
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islam seeks to dissolve the power of Christ at every turn. This is anti-Christ.

2 John 7-10:
7 **For many seducers have gone out into the world who confess not that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This is a seducer and an antichrist. **8 Look to yourselves, that you lose not the things which you have wrought: but that you may receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever revolts and continues not in the doctrine of Christ has not God. He that continues in the doctrine, the same has both the Father and the Son. 10 If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you. 11 For he that says unto him: God speed you, communicates with his wicked works.
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mohammed was a seducer of men via their proclivity to sin. He did not deny the personage of Jesus, but he denied the incarnation of Jesus in the context which the Gospel is preached. Ergo, islam is anti-Christ.
 
Now, the koran:

Surah 19 (Maryam) 16-26:
  1. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, ‘that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us’:It is a matter (so) decreed."22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"24. But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;25. "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.26. “So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, ‘I have vowed a fast to ((Allah)) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being’”
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Well, aside from saying Mary had a kid, this is basically toilet paper if printed out. Or kindling.

and now:
  1. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! 28. “O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!” 29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: “How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?” 30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; 31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; 32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; 33. “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”! 34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. **35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is. **36. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
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False! False! False! False! False! WARNING WARNING WARNING. FALSE!
So, I must conclude that islam/mohammedism is antiChrist and false. As such, while they profess the faith of Abraham, they, in fact, do not actually worship the same God. They think they do. They don’t. There is a difference.
 
I just found out some information about The miracle of Fatima? I have to say I’m puzzled.
 
jam070406 said:
Is it part of the deposit of Faith handed down by the Apostles?
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It is in the CCC. You state you are “orthodox” and so, of course, you must accept what is in the CCC, because if not you aren’t really so “orthodox” after all are you? 🤷
 
rossum said:
Do the Jews believe in the same God as you? Their God also “has left Jesus out of Him”.

It is sometimes instructive to apply ideas about God and Islam to God and Judaism. It can give a different perspective.

rossum
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Allow me to quote myself:
Furthermore, the Hebrew plainly points to a Triune God in the very Tanakh and its word usage regarding God. Elohim = plural; only way to get plural in semitic languages is via 3 or more. Adonai = again, plural; literally “my Lords”. Proverbs 8, plainly talks about Jesus as being part of God, but also distinct within the Trinity if you just look at what’s being said. Etc. Verses 30-36 are rabidly “New Testament” in their tone and in the context of the preceding verses can ONLY refer to Jesus.
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The modern Jewish rejection of God in a Triune concept is just that, modern. The language, the ancient language, however, describes perfectly well when we just understand what it’s actually saying. Elohim becomes a title, great. But linguistically, it’s plural indicating unison in thought and action. Adonai, same.
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Even in the Shema: while it says “the Lord our God, the Lord is One” sounds, on the surface, as “one” and not “one in union”, again, we must understand exactly what the Trinity is and isn’t in the context of the language. Echad, from the Shema, means “one”. However, it is a plural word. Now, most Jewish articles regarding this like to point out that while plural words are used, they mean one and one only. No one is arguing that. No one is saying that God is 3 portions and makes up some corporate entity known as God, Universal Productions. But, there is in fact definite linguistic evidence to point to the knowledge of the Trinity, though not explicitly. Further, the rabbinic Judaism of today is about as Jewish as Protestantism is Roman Catholic. Roots, similarity, etc… but not the same.

As far as the 3rd aspect of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, it is rendered in transliterated Hebrew as “Ruach HaKodesh”. Literally, “holy breath”.

Again, when you look back at the “Old Testament”, it’s not only apparent with a modicum of study, but it’s painfully apparent. Of course, the Jews won’t admit this until they finally cry out in desperation, " baruch haba beshem adonai" ( Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord).
 
jonbhorton said:
Now, the koran:

Surah 19 (Maryam) 16-26:

Well, aside from saying Mary had a kid, this is basically toilet paper if printed out. Or kindling.

and now:

False! False! False! False! False! WARNING WARNING WARNING. FALSE!
So, I must conclude that islam/mohammedism is antiChrist and false. As such, while they profess the faith of Abraham, they, in fact, do not actually worship the same God. They think they do. They don’t. There is a difference.
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And you state you are Catholic as well. Go and read the CCC and discover that, indeed, Muslims, Jews, and Christians worship the same God. Only Catholics hold the fullness of Truth.
 
ringil said:
It is in the CCC. You state you are “orthodox” and so, of course, you must accept what is in the CCC, because if not you aren’t really so “orthodox” after all are you? 🤷
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Where in the CCC? Paragraph 841?

One paragraph, just like one verse, doesn’t support an entire doctrine.

It must be read in the context of the actual Bible, tradition, etc.

Furthermore, the language, while sappy and vague, is easily readable in another manner:

They think they have a clue, but they don’t.

If the CCC is saying muslims are gonna be just fine- the CCC is in fact anathema according to multiple scriptural resources including the ones the Church put together.

What you are trying to do, is rectify a liberal, modernist view on all dogs go to heaven with what is in fact plain language: they think they get it, but they don’t.
 
ringil said:
And you state you are Catholic as well. Go and read the CCC and discover that, indeed, Muslims, Jews, and Christians worship the same God. Only Catholics hold the fullness of Truth.
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Jews are waiting on the same Jesus/Moshiach as we are waiting to return- they just won’t admit it

Muslims are waiting on Isa to come, who will be taught by the Mahdi how to pray, and who will lead a world army against all Jews, Christians, and unbelievers.

Not the same at all…

The CCC states they acknowledge the Creator. Great, so does Native American mythology.

The CCC paragraph in question also states, " these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day".

This paragraph is worded like junk and is almost unable to be rectified against actual doctrine and scripture. It really should be rewritten to better reflect the truth. The truth is, etymologically/historically speaking- Allah ain’t YHWH. Allah, at worst, is Satan.
  1. Profess to hold the faith of Abraham. Well, Arius professed to hold the faith of Christianity, but he didn’t. He espoused heresy. Islam is false and so is their view of God.
  2. No, they don’t.
This entire paragraph needs to be rewritten and notated as such in a future syllabus of errors.

If something doesn’t have the fullness of Truth, it has no Truth. It has a semblance of it, but a semblance tips the scales as much as air.
 
“For many seducers have gone out into the world who confess not that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This is a seducer and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that you lose not the things which you have wrought: but that you may receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever revolts and continues not in the doctrine of Christ has not God. He that continues in the doctrine, the same has both the Father and the Son. 10 If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you. 11 For he that says unto him: God speed you, communicates with his wicked works.”

I will take God’s advice. I’m outta here. Praise be to GOD.
 
jonbhorton said:
Jews are waiting on the same Jesus/Moshiach as we are waiting to return- they just won’t admit it

Muslims are waiting on Isa to come, who will be taught by the Mahdi how to pray, and who will lead a world army against all Jews, Christians, and unbelievers.

Not the same at all…

The CCC states they acknowledge the Creator. Great, so does Native American mythology.

The CCC paragraph in question also states, " these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day".

This paragraph is worded like junk and is almost unable to be rectified against actual doctrine and scripture. It really should be rewritten to better reflect the truth. The truth is, etymologically/historically speaking- Allah ain’t YHWH. Allah, at worst, is Satan.
  1. Profess to hold the faith of Abraham. Well, Arius professed to hold the faith of Christianity, but he didn’t. He espoused heresy. Islam is false and so is their view of God.
  2. No, they don’t.
This entire paragraph needs to be rewritten and notated as such in a future syllabus of errors.

If something doesn’t have the fullness of Truth, it has no Truth. It has a semblance of it, but a semblance tips the scales as much as air.
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I know there are a lot of evangelicals out in CO Springs. Are you sure they haven’t gotten to youbecause what you are writing is pretty far out there?

Calling any part of the CCC “anathema” and “worded like junk”. . . . . . .

Really?!? How am I supposed to respond to this? You aren’t talking like a Catholic.

"it really should be re-written as. . . " PLEASE!! :rolleyes:

Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God. In Catholicism we have the fullness of truth and, you know what, that includes CCC, which you question.
 
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