Celebrant without chasuble?

[Jon_in_the_Nati]

GIRM 299 tells us that the chasuble, worn over the alb and stole, is the vestment proper to the celebrant at Mass. Is this to be interpreted as saying that it is not licit for the celebrant to celebrate mass wearing only alb and stole?

If so, why are so many clergy so insistent on not wearing a chasuble for mass? To be fair, it generally happens in loosey-goosey suburban parishes, of the kind that are rife with liturgical abuses anyhow, so I suppose one cannot be too surprised.

 

[paperwight66]

If so, why are so many clergy so insistent on not wearing a chasuble for mass? To be fair, it generally happens in loosey-goosey suburban parishes, of the kind that are rife with liturgical abuses anyhow, so I suppose one cannot be too surprised.

How many, exactly? I have never seen it.

 

[opus101]

I’ve seen it plenty of times. Don’t quite understand it myself.

 

[YoungTradCath]

It is illicit to not wear a chasuble if there is one to be worn. With that said, I’ve never been to a mass in which the priest wasn’t wearing one, but I’ve seen plenty of pictures.

I’ve been to two masses with a deacon without a dalmatic, but only in the case in which there was more than one deacon assisting the priest and there was only one dalmatic. In such cases, the deacon dealing with the sacred vessels at the altar wore the dalmatic, and the one reading the Gospel did not. It so happens that sometimes at my parish, for whatever reason, two deacons are present at masses, kind of like when there used to be subdeacons for high masses.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

If so, why are so many clergy so insistent on not wearing a chasuble for mass? To be fair, it generally happens in **loosey-goosey suburban parishes, of the kind that are rife with liturgical abuses **anyhow, so I suppose one cannot be too surprised.

Wow, don’t even know what to say about this. This is a wildly broad brush description of parishes. And clergy *insistent *on not wearing chasubles? Who are these men? Certainly no priest I’ve met across four continents.

If you’ve seen pictures only, are you sure the clergy in question are actually Catholic? Clergy in several protestant denominations wear similar vestaments and usually don’t wear a chasabule for the entire service.

If in your local suburban parish, the priests insists on not wearing proper vestaments, have you asked him why? And have you offered to spearhead the fundraising to buy him ones he will wear?

 

[Matthew_Holford]

The celebrant must wear a chasuble. If he fails to wear one it’s illicit. Personally, I’ve never sees a celebrant without a chasuble.

 

[In_All_Things]

I believe the only thing a priest must wear during mass is a stole.

 

[martininthefiel]

I’ve seen this in summer in un-air conditioned churches. I’m sure the Mass still counts. If someone would like to consult the GIRM, I’m certain the answer would lie therein. Or have you consulted with the Pharisees?

 

[YoungTradCath]

I believe the only thing a priest must wear during mass is a stole.

Not true, as per the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

I’ve seen this in summer in un-air conditioned churches. I’m sure the Mass still counts. If someone would like to consult the GIRM, I’m certain the answer would lie therein. Or have you consulted with the Pharisees?

I hardly think this rises to the level of Pharisiacal behavior. It’s ridiculous that anytime someone complains about anything on this forum, even if he’s right, inevitably the word “Pharisee” comes up in someone’s response.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I once had a priest who didn’t wear a chasuble in summer, supposedly because it was too hot. This was in Upstate New York in an area that only occasionally reaches 90 degrees (sometimes never in an entire summer). I honestly can’t remember if the building had air conditioning. I was only there for college and I didn’t attend many summer masses.

I would imagine that some countries might have special norms to allow fewer layers of clothing in hot weather, sort of like the tropical countries that allow white cassocks instead of black, because of the hot sun (and it’s since become a traditional look for clergy in the areas). I’m unaware of any such rule in the United States, though. I also imagine that the norms are not intended to be followed if it would be dangerous, like a sickly old priest in a 100 degree church.

 

[willofgods]

Never ever seen this, even in the most liberal parishes (the kind without a crucifix or anything that would lead you to think it’s Catholic). Even in developing countries where it might be more cost-effective not to have one…

Not all churches that say “Catholic” are so. Make sure with your diocese that it is… (I remember traveling one time and the diocese’s website had a warning up that some churches in the area had the name Catholic in it, but were on the contrary in a state of apostasy.

 

[roadsend]

I guess that I am one of the “Pharisees” because I don’t really care for it when Mass is not offered according to Church law and tradition.
That said, a lot of padres, choir directors, liturgy honchos etc. just do what they darn well please (Church law and tradition notwithstanding) and there isn’t a heck of a lot any of us can do about it except indicate our displeasure by going else where or sending our contributions elsewhere.

 

[martininthefiel]

I’ve seen this in summer in un-air conditioned churches. I’m sure the Mass still counts. If someone would like to consult the GIRM, I’m certain the answer would lie therein. Or have you consulted with the Pharisees?

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal, paragraph 299 describes “the chasuble, worn over the alb and stole” as the proper vestment for the priest at Mass. Paragraph 209 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal notes: “In the vesting room or other suitable place, the concelebrants put on the sacred vestments they customarily wear when celebrating Mass individually. Should, however, a good reason arise, (e.g., a large number of concelebrants or a lack of vestments), concelebrants other than the principal celebrant may omit the chasuble and simply wear the stole over the alb.” The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments is the Instruction, Redemptionis Sacramentum notes: “… Out of necessity the concelebrants other than the principal celebrant may even put on white chasubles. For the rest, the norms of the liturgical books are to be observed.” (124) This same Instruction notes " the abuse is reprobated whereby the sacred ministers celebrate Holy Mass or other Rites without sacred vestments or with only a stole over the monastic cowl or the common habit of religious or ordinary clothes, contrary to the prescriptions of the liturgical books, even when there is only one minister participating.

Is there a Canon lawyer in the house who can explain the last paragraph?

 

[YoungTradCath]

The last sentence means wear a chasuble, and that nothing can replace it.

 

[martininthefiel]

I guess that I am one of the “Pharisees” because I don’t really care for it when Mass is not offered according to Church law and tradition.
That said, a lot of padres, choir directors, liturgy honchos etc. just do what they darn well please (Church law and tradition notwithstanding) and there isn’t a heck of a lot any of us can do about it except indicate our displeasure by going else where or sending our contributions elsewhere.

Sorry,I wrote that in a moment of pique. I, too, prefer that the rules be followed, but I also trust that my pastor knows what he is doing. I love Church tradition. If it were up to me, I’d love to see incense and bells at every Mass, and reception at the altar rail. But, it is not practical to do this.

When I am at Mass, my thoughts are on the Eucharist, not what the priest is wearing. I can see circumstances where full vestments can’t be worn. In any case, it’s really a matter between the celebrant and the Ordinary–not really my business.

As I read the rubric, members of religious orders are to follow the custom of those orders. Perhaps that answers the question.
I certainly would not expect a priest, in any case, to risk heat stroke in an

I certainly would not expect a priest, in any case, to risk heat stroke in a too hot church, the rubrics not withstanding.

 

[roadsend]

Sorry,I wrote that in a moment of pique. I, too, prefer that the rules be followed, but I also trust that my pastor knows what he is doing. I love Church tradition. If it were up to me, I’d love to see incense and bells at every Mass, and reception at the altar rail. But, it is not practical to do this.

When I am at Mass, my thoughts are on the Eucharist, not what the priest is wearing. I can see circumstances where full vestments can’t be worn. In any case, it’s really a matter between the celebrant and the Ordinary–not really my business.

As I read the rubric, members of religious orders are to follow the custom of those orders. Perhaps that answers the question.
I certainly would not expect a priest, in any case, to risk heat stroke in an

I certainly would not expect a priest, in any case, to risk heat stroke in a too hot church, the rubrics not withstanding.

The GIRM saying “the abuse is reprobated whereby the sacred ministers celebrate Holy Mass or other Rites without sacred vestments or with only a stole over the monastic cowl or the common habit of religious” sure seems as if some religious orders are covered by this rubric.
I don’t know why it wouldn’t be practical to have " bells at every Mass, and reception at the altar rail." We didn’t have any problem doing this forty years ago.
When I was a kid growing up in Arizona more than sixty years ago (before air conditioning was common), I never saw a padre have heat stroke. They adapted, wore lighter clothing under the vestments, and scheduled Masses earlier, especially in the summer (but then again they WANTED to follow Church Law). It was not uncommon to schedule June weddings at 7:00 or 8:00 am to beat the heat.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

The GIRM saying “the abuse is reprobated whereby the sacred ministers celebrate Holy Mass or other Rites without sacred vestments or with only a stole over the monastic cowl or the common habit of religious” sure seems as if some religious orders are covered by this rubric.
I don’t know why it wouldn’t be practical to have " bells at every Mass, and reception at the altar rail." We didn’t have any problem doing this forty years ago.
When I was a kid growing up in Arizona more than sixty years ago (before air conditioning was common), I never saw a padre have heat stroke. They adapted, wore lighter clothing under the vestments, and scheduled Masses earlier, especially in the summer (but then again they WANTED to follow Church Law). It was not uncommon to schedule June weddings at 7:00 or 8:00 am to beat the heat.

It would be impractical because half the people who grew up with that stuff and were excited to see it go would be screaming and having convultions if they saw it come back.

 

[Brendan]

I’ve seen this in summer in un-air conditioned churches. I’m sure the Mass still counts. If someone would like to consult the GIRM, I’m certain the answer would lie therein. Or have you consulted with the Pharisees?

I’ve been to Africa in the middle of their summer. The priests (including this bishop) all wore chasubles.

My pastor wore his at all the Masses, and our parish Deacon (who was also with us) wore his dalmatic.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

Not true, as per the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

I hardly think this rises to the level of Pharisiacal behavior. It’s ridiculous that anytime someone complains about anything on this forum, even if he’s right, inevitably the word “Pharisee” comes up in someone’s response.

This.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

The last sentence means wear a chasuble, and that nothing can replace it.

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_528/1281401204S789Ky.jpg
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
http://www.acnuk.org/data/images/email/acn_enews_mass_uzbekistan_304px.jpg

Are these allowed? I know it is allowed in poor countries with the dispensation of the local Bishop, but it is hard to tell from the pictures where they are from. Is the 2nd picture a military base perhaps?