Celibacy 'not untouchable': Bertone [CN-USA]

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Speaking on Spanish television, Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone has said that priestly celibacy is not “untouchable” but is a “positive tradition” of the Church.

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I just wonder when are they going to stop the non sense of refering to psychology and polls and start to talking about God and how He wants His Church to do things.

are they ashamed of mention God when defending the Church?
 
wisdomseeker said:
I just wonder when are they going to stop the non sense of refering to psychology and polls and start to talking about God and how He wants His Church to do things.

are they ashamed of mention God when defending the Church?
Click to expand...
For several centuries, including those immediately after the resurrection, there were married priests, including the Apostle Peter. The Church decided for a number of reasons to require all priests in the Latin Rite to be celibate, although centuries later, as a result of the agreements with certain formerly Orthodox churches (Maronite, Melchite, etc.), Easter Rite Catholic churches had married priests. In addition, more recently married pastors converting from Protestant churches were sometimes ordained as Catholic priests. So, it’s hardly nonsense when we speak of married priests. It was the original tradition of the Church and has been permitted for Eastern Rite priests and for some converting Protestant clergy for quite some time. In fact, we expect there to be a number of additional married clergy resulting from the recent invitation of Pope Benedict XVI to traditional Anglicans to become part of the Roman Catholic Church. Already ordained Anglican priests and bishops who do so will be permitted to remain married.

While there may be good reasons for clerical celibacy, it is hardly nonsense to discuss whether this discipline (not dogma) should become optional for Roman Catholic priests. This isn’t a matter of being ashamed of God or knowing how God “wants his Church to do things.” This is a matter of choice for the Church. Currently, we choose celibacy (with some exceptions). Frankly, it seems unfair for celibacy to be optional for Eastern Rite Catholic priests and those who convert to Catholicism after ordination while making it mandatory for the majority.
 
Celibacy is not only a good discipline to aid in total devotion to Christ, but it also avoids the complication of heirs and disputes over property.
 
Alan55 said:
For several centuries, including those immediately after the resurrection, there were married priests, including the Apostle Peter. The Church decided for a number of reasons to require all priests in the Latin Rite to be celibate, although centuries later, as a result of the agreements with certain formerly Orthodox churches (Maronite, Melchite, etc.), Easter Rite Catholic churches had married priests. In addition, more recently married pastors converting from Protestant churches were sometimes ordained as Catholic priests. So, it’s hardly nonsense when we speak of married priests. It was the original tradition of the Church and has been permitted for Eastern Rite priests and for some converting Protestant clergy for quite some time. In fact, we expect there to be a number of additional married clergy resulting from the recent invitation of Pope Benedict XVI to traditional Anglicans to become part of the Roman Catholic Church. Already ordained Anglican priests and bishops who do so will be permitted to remain married.

While there may be good reasons for clerical celibacy, it is hardly nonsense to discuss whether this discipline (not dogma) should become optional for Roman Catholic priests. This isn’t a matter of being ashamed of God or knowing how God “wants his Church to do things.” This is a matter of choice for the Church. Currently, we choose celibacy (with some exceptions). Frankly, it seems unfair for celibacy to be optional for Eastern Rite Catholic priests and those who convert to Catholicism after ordination while making it mandatory for the majority.
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I will have no difficulty in accepting whatever the Church decides on celibacy. However, one quandary would be on economics. How would a Catholic priest support his family? Would the dioceses and parishes have enough funds to pay a decent wage? Many diocesan priests over here live on meagre means. While the Church of England and the Eastern Rites seem to do well with financial support of married priests, they are, however, quite small compared to the Catholic Church. My family also befriended a married Anglican priest who, upon the family’s conversion to Catholicism, had to give up so much. Although he has a job as a Catholic Chaplain, they are struggling to meet temporal needs of the family.
 
I agree that there are economic factors related to married clergy. However, this should be the priest’s option in my view. Priests who are married to stay-at-home moms will have to live very frugally. Those married to wage-earners will be able to live less frugally. I am married to an artist, and I have friends married to school teachers and others with low incomes. These economic factors shouldn’t decide the issue.
 
Alan55 said:
For several centuries, including those immediately after the resurrection, there were married priests, including the Apostle Peter. The Church decided for a number of reasons to require all priests in the Latin Rite to be celibate, although centuries later, as a result of the agreements with certain formerly Orthodox churches (Maronite, Melchite, etc.), Easter Rite Catholic churches had married priests. In addition, more recently married pastors converting from Protestant churches were sometimes ordained as Catholic priests. So, it’s hardly nonsense when we speak of married priests. It was the original tradition of the Church and has been permitted for Eastern Rite priests and for some converting Protestant clergy for quite some time. In fact, we expect there to be a number of additional married clergy resulting from the recent invitation of Pope Benedict XVI to traditional Anglicans to become part of the Roman Catholic Church. Already ordained Anglican priests and bishops who do so will be permitted to remain married.

While there may be good reasons for clerical celibacy, it is hardly nonsense to discuss whether this discipline (not dogma) should become optional for Roman Catholic priests. This isn’t a matter of being ashamed of God or knowing how God “wants his Church to do things.” This is a matter of choice for the Church. Currently, we choose celibacy (with some exceptions). Frankly, it seems unfair for celibacy to be optional for Eastern Rite Catholic priests and those who convert to Catholicism after ordination while making it mandatory for the majority.
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yep! why should anybody change for the Catholic Church. let’s have the CC change for everybody else. it has been like that for while. let s solve all the problems of the world by having everybody married. what you going to do about the divorce?
instead of people repent from their sins, they try to find ways to commit more sins under the disgus of solving a problem that has nothing to do with celibacy but with the sins of the people.

celibacy is a beautifull gift given by God to His Church. the devil will not rest until this is destroyed. then he will find something else within the Church to point out that is wrong and he will find people to agree with him again and again.
 
wisdomseeker said:
yep! why should anybody change for the Catholic Church. let’s have the CC change for everybody else. it has been like that for while. let s solve all the problems of the world by having everybody married. what you going to do about the divorce?
instead of people repent from their sins, they try to find ways to commit more sins under the disgus of solving a problem that has nothing to do with celibacy but with the sins of the people.

celibacy is a beautifull gift given by God to His Church. the devil will not rest until this is destroyed. then he will find something else within the Church to point out that is wrong and he will find people to agree with him again and again.
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Indeed “celibacy is a beautiful gift given by God to His Church”.

Now this is only theoretical. But I suppose the Church can give the option to married men to become priests. If a person enters the seminary life as a single person, he should remain one for the rest of his life, dedicated to the service of the Church and people. If a person who enters the seminary life as a married person, he should plan ahead to raise his family and be a priest to where there is a shortage of ordained men.

This is only something that can be canonically changed, I assume. Married men can be ordained, but unmarried ordained cannot.

I think this is the only viable route for the Church, as it would be consistent with former disciplinary matters which could change according to circumstance.

Let me know what you guys think.
 
AlphaOmega said:
Indeed “celibacy is a beautiful gift given by God to His Church”.

Now this is only theoretical. But I suppose the Church can give the option to married men to become priests. If a person enters the seminary life as a single person, he should remain one for the rest of his life, dedicated to the service of the Church and people. If a person who enters the seminary life as a married person, he should plan ahead to raise his family and be a priest to where there is a shortage of ordained men.

This is only something that can be canonically changed, I assume. Married men can be ordained, but unmarried ordained cannot.

I think this is the only viable route for the Church, as it would be consistent with former disciplinary matters which could change according to circumstance.

Let me know what you guys think.
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As I said earlier, I’ll go by what the Church decides. But, here goes…

Let’s suppose the option is open to a married man:
  1. would that be on the basis of his decision alone or, would the wife be consulted?
  2. what if the wife and children do not share the husband’s aspirations to the priesthood?
 
Santi2 said:
As I said earlier, I’ll go by what the Church decides. But, here goes…

Let’s suppose the option is open to a married man:
  1. would that be on the basis of his decision alone or, would the wife be consulted?
  2. what if the wife and children do not share the husband’s aspirations to the priesthood?
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Each family would make the decision the same way it makes any other similar decision, just as families have done for untold centuries.
 
wisdomseeker said:
yep! why should anybody change for the Catholic Church. let’s have the CC change for everybody else.
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Well, it was changed once before when celibacy became a requirement.

This is not really news, but rather Bertone saying what the Church has always taught. Of course celibacy is not untouchable. The Holy Father allows by dispensation some married priests even today. I do not think the tradition will be trashed in our lifetime, but it theoretically can, and has been, changed.
 
Santi2 said:
As I said earlier, I’ll go by what the Church decides. But, here goes…

Let’s suppose the option is open to a married man:
  1. would that be on the basis of his decision alone or, would the wife be consulted?
  2. what if the wife and children do not share the husband’s aspirations to the priesthood?
Click to expand...
let’s no forget the times we live. women no longer want to be obedient to their husbands. plus because of protestants actions of having husbands and wives as pastors of their congregation, it wouldnt be long before the wives of priests wanted to be priestesses also.

i firmly believe that the pressure of having married priests comes from protestants. they cannot stand to see the CC being any different from them.
that is why the Mass has taking such a horrible change.

it would be a horrible mistake to even contemplate such a change in the times in which the Church is going through so much opposition.

not many people are sticking with Tradition of the Church any more, many wants to see it gone. protestants cannot stand Tradition of the Church. they have fighting against for many centuries. this is an Spiritual battle and many Catholics are not able to take the heat, they simply give up and agree with whatever comes from the other side.
 
i hope the church never changes it’s position on this issue ~ as far as having a shortage of priests, i would even support just having one priest to a town if it comes to that…

i think it would ruin the “uniqueness” of the c.c.

and think of the slippery slope it would create.
 
Alan55 said:
For several centuries, including those immediately after the resurrection, there were married priests, including the Apostle Peter. The Church decided for a number of reasons to require all priests in the Latin Rite to be celibate, although centuries later, as a result of the agreements with certain formerly Orthodox churches (Maronite, Melchite, etc.), Easter Rite Catholic churches had married priests. In addition, more recently married pastors converting from Protestant churches were sometimes ordained as Catholic priests. So, it’s hardly nonsense when we speak of married priests. It was the original tradition of the Church and has been permitted for Eastern Rite priests and for some converting Protestant clergy for quite some time. In fact, we expect there to be a number of additional married clergy resulting from the recent invitation of Pope Benedict XVI to traditional Anglicans to become part of the Roman Catholic Church. Already ordained Anglican priests and bishops who do so will be permitted to remain married.

While there may be good reasons for clerical celibacy, it is hardly nonsense to discuss whether this discipline (not dogma) should become optional for Roman Catholic priests. This isn’t a matter of being ashamed of God or knowing how God “wants his Church to do things.” This is a matter of choice for the Church. Currently, we choose celibacy (with some exceptions). Frankly, it seems unfair for celibacy to be optional for Eastern Rite Catholic priests and those who convert to Catholicism after ordination while making it mandatory for the majority.
Click to expand...
According to the following article by Father Shuster, Thirty Nine Popes were married:
johnshuster.com/thirtynine_popes.htm
 
There are those who have strongly held positions on both sides of this debate. I am not one of them. This is essentially a non-issue for me. The way I look at it, regardless of whether a priest is celibate or not, it won’t change the way I lead my life - i.e. trying my best to be a good husband, a good father, a good employee, a good friend, a good neighbor, etc.
 
In my opinion, I have found that my opinion doesn’t really matter, so to speak.

If the Church decides to allow priests to marry, then let it be done. If not, then may priests remain unmarried.

If the Church declares something when it comes to faith and morals (and that’s what this is a matter of), then, whether they determine that priests can marry or they can’t, then we should accept it.
 
It must be remembered that clerical celibacy is a DISCIPLINE of the Church, not DOCTRINE/DOGMA. Under certain cases (Eastern Rites, some Protestant “ministers” who convert to Latin Rite Catholicism, etc.), Catholic Priests can be married before they are ordained. DISCIPLINES can be dispensed with, abrogated and amended at will by the proper ecclesiastical authorities. The only concrete/objective argument in favor of clerical celibacy is that that is what the Church requires and thus we must obey her precepts on the matter.
 
Santi2 said:
As I said earlier, I’ll go by what the Church decides. But, here goes…

Let’s suppose the option is open to a married man:
  1. would that be on the basis of his decision alone or, would the wife be consulted?
  2. what if the wife and children do not share the husband’s aspirations to the priesthood?
Click to expand...
How is the issue handled for married men who want to become Permanent Deacons?
 
This is a multi layered issue. Is there a need for change? On one side is the opinion that celibacy removes the issues and problems of family life ( with 4 kids sometimes I wish I had the grace and determination to remain celibate myself! lol). Others would argue that family life would allow clergy to have a more rounded view of the world. The celibacy question is always raised in the media along with the child abuse scandal. However there is no evidence to suggest that celibacy is linked with abuse. Would allowing married priests increase the number of priests? The evidence from other Christian denominations would seem to say not. The profiles of all protestant churches is that of fewer and older ministers/pastors. Can we afford married clergy? The Church would have to offer a decent salary. Here in Scotland the main protestant Church of Scotland has announced that they have 1000 ministers but only enough money to afford 800. They reckon they’ll be bankrupt in 2018 or thereabouts. Mind you after saying all that I should say that personally I’d have no problem with married priests.
 
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