Centering Prayer

[Mysty101]

gnome:

then I need to grow out of the “Our Father” taught by Jesus ;-))

Another question–
When you learn to dance or run, does this mean you stop walking? but do you know anyone who runs or dances before he can walk?

 

[RThomas]

Jenlyn:

I totally agree. I had a hard time finding the words to say it. It is on the journey in prayer but don’t you think that maybe she is saying it because she wants to make sure that when you are in the 4 mansion you don’t get in the way of God talking to you? She is warning the person not to keep up with vocal prayer and to quiet the mind so as to hear God? We are being filled with God by God doing it not us emptying our minds so God can enter when he grants us that grace?

Just trying to fully understand what St. Teresa is trying to say.

Peace,
Jen

I’ll try to respond generally, according to my understanding of the interior life, not specifically as a Teresa scholar -

the prayer of simplicity, also called recollection or even sometimes acquired contemplation, is a quiet resting in the presence of God. It is the prayer normally that precedes the gift of infused contemplation, and the higher mystical prayers of union.

CP might be helpful, and appropriate, in the prayer of simplicity. It is not necessary. If a person has not entered the prayer of simplicity in fact - and is unable to rest quietly in the presence of the Lord - then CP is premature and is a hindrance to growth in prayer.

The soul knows when it is an “unnatural” effort to pray with fixed concentration, attention and devotion - and when further it is disquieting to concentrate in mental prayer or meditation. The soul knows when it wants and needs to simply be quiet, and rest, and be still with Him and in His presence.

When the soul is there, in the interior journey, then “distraction” in prayer is not the same as it was before. The soul does not make great effort to stay in prayer, as before. The soul is content to be quiet, and still, with Him. In such a “place”, the Lord is very very near - and the very best thing to do, is nothing - wait.

Thomas

 

[gnome]

Mysty101:

No, not grow out—grow into

These are stages in prayer life, and we do not abandon one because we have reached another. The Mystic explains it far better than I.

Any form of unstructured prayer is difficult to explain, and different for each person. It is more a concept than anything that can be easily defined in black & white.

Your theory, especially the 3 stages of prayer, is not according to the Catechism.

 

[gnome]

Mysty101:

Another question–
When you learn to dance or run, does this mean you stop walking? but do you know anyone who runs or dances before he can walk?

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p4s1c3a1.htm
“Through his Word, God speaks to man. By words, mental or vocal, our prayer takes flesh.”
“Christian prayer tries above all to meditate on the mysteries of Christ, as in lectio divina or the rosary.”

If one can walk into heaven, there’s no need to run or dance.

 

[Exporter]

Micky wrote,“For many years I practiced centering prayer. I read many books, went on weekend centering prayer retreats and traveled miles to hear Thomas Keating speak. After all of this I came to the conculsion that this is more self-hypnosis than prayer. I also consider centering prayer to be transendential meditation with a Christian veneer. A recent Catholic Answers show interviewed a women who was very much into the New Age movement. She attributes centering prayer as the first step in that direction. She discusses this in detail so if you get a chance listen to the show.”

Thomas Keating is a Trappist monk (He is a priest too). His age now is about 85. He studied with both Buddhists and Hindu to learn the forms of meditation he espouses. Centering Prayers are not Christian in origin, they are from the Eastern Religions.

Two characteristics of Centering Prayer are:

1. Catholic prayers are those going OUT from an individual toward God. While Centering Prayer is Going Inward toward Self - not to God!!
2. Those who actually achieve Centering Prayer are in the third stage of hypnosis and if the mind has become empty (blank) the mind is open to any spirits that want to enter. Evil Spirits take advantage of a blank mind.

Before you pop off and tell me I am very wrong let me mention this. I personally know that if a person is a border-line Bipolar candidate, Centering Prayer can push them over the edge. These eager people who are the C.P. Directors do not check for potential mental illness, no, they say,“Come on in”.

Briefly. I know a young women (20) who went off to college on an athletic scholarship. In the Fall of the Freshman Year she got into C.P. By Christmas she was back home, seeing evil demons, scared to death, afraid of the TV and the psychiatrist hospitalized her. Over a 6 months period she was in the hospital 2 more times. She lost that good scholarship, now a year later she is able to work. She told me that when she was doing C.P. (trying to be a “good” girl) she’d see ferris wheels, walking trees, dead people on the grass and ugly clowns. She dreamed that stuff too. She is a relative of mine. Do you think I’d allow one of mine do C.P.? I have held her while she was yelling, “Make them go away!” Thomas Keating should have kept C.P. to himself, we are not Trappists.

 

[1_Maria]

Exporter:

Before you pop off and tell me I am very wrong let me mention this. I personally know that if a person is a border-line Bipolar candidate, Centering Prayer can push them over the edge. These eager people who are the C.P. Directors do not check for potential mental illness, no, they say,“Come on in”.

Briefly. I know a young women (20) who went off to college on an athletic scholarship. In the Fall of the Freshman Year she got into C.P. By Christmas she was back home, seeing evil demons, scared to death, afraid of the TV and the psychiatrist hospitalized her. Over a 6 months period she was in the hospital 2 more times. She lost that good scholarship, now a year later she is able to work. She told me that when she was doing C.P. (trying to be a “good” girl) she’d see ferris wheels, walking trees, dead people on the grass and ugly clowns. She dreamed that stuff too. She is a relative of mine. Do you think I’d allow one of mine do C.P.? I have held her while she was yelling, “Make them go away!” Thomas Keating should have kept C.P. to himself, we are not Trappists.

Exporter…thanks for posting this experience which must have very difficult for you.

I could add any number of of similar true experiences of close friends, neighbors, co-parishioners, etc., but your experience says it like it is for many unsuspecting people who are not well-formed in the teachings of the Church.

Maria

 

[Mysty101]

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p4s1c3a1.htm
“Through his Word, God speaks to man. By words, mental or vocal, our prayer takes flesh.”
“Christian prayer tries above all to meditate on the mysteries of Christ, as in lectio divina or the rosary.”

If one can walk into heaven, there’s no need to run or dance.

No, but if some wish to do so, who are you to stop them?

 

[Mysty101]

1 Maria:

Exporter…thanks for posting this experience which must have very difficult for you.

I could add any number of of similar true experiences of close friends, neighbors, co-parishioners, etc., but your experience says it like it is for many unsuspecting people who are not well-formed in the teachings of the Church.
Maria

You have so many friends involved in CP as well as CCR—does your parish have this many programs available?

Could you give the times and places of these meetings and seminars?

 

[Mysty101]

Exporter:

Micky wrote,"1. Catholic prayers are those going OUT from an individual toward God. While Centering Prayer is Going Inward toward Self - not to God!!
.

This is the instruction–
Keating always refers to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit----never a “Higher Power”
First instruction
Be with God within

1. Those who actually achieve Centering Prayer are in the third stage of hypnosis and if the mind has become empty (blank) the mind is open to any spirits that want to enter. Evil Spirits take advantage of a blank mind.

I don’t know about the program you attended, but this is what I learned
"

When you become aware of anything else, return ever so gently to God, using the sacred word"

It is not a blank mind—it is concentrating on God, and using the word Jesus, if there is a distraction.

Before you pop off and tell me I am very wrong let me mention this. I personally know that if a person is a border-line Bipolar candidate, Centering Prayer can push them over the edge. These eager people who are the C.P. Directors do not check for potential mental illness, no, they say,“Come on in”.

You speak again of the mentally ill, as you did with CCR—where are the therapists? Bipolar people are very fragile – many other things can set them off. I am speaking of devout stable people looking for a deeper prayer life.

She told me that when she was doing C.P. (trying to be a “good” girl) she’d see ferris wheels, walking trees, dead people on the grass and ugly clowns. She dreamed that stuff too.

You know there may possibly be other influences in her life–Many college freshman have had these experiences without CP.

 

[buzzcut]

Now that I’ve had some time to look at the texts, and to think about what they say, I’m coming to see that Fr Keating and St John of the Cross have more in common than might be thought.

Firstly, St John.

“At the proper time one should abandon this imaginative meditation so that the journey to God may not be hindered, but so that there is no regression, one should not abandon it before the due time.” – Ascent of Mount Carmel 2.13.1
In other words, the discursive meditation must be abandonned at some point. It is a question of timing. As Joysong has pointed out (thank you, Joysong), there is a more in-depth discussion of the three signs in Dark Night 1.9.

St John of the Cross distinguishes between beginners and proficients:

“For though the apprehensions of these faculties are not a proximate means to union for proficients, they are a remote means for beginners” (Ascent of Mount Carmel 2.13.1, my emphasis).

So for beginners, the discursive meditation is helpful, but for proficients it is just the reverse – the discursive meditation is actually not helpful. It must be given up.

Now compare with what Fr TK says about discursive meditation:

“A certain amount of reflection on the truths of faith to develop basic convictions, which is the work of discursive meditation, is a necessary basis for contemplation.” (Fr TK, Open mind open heart, p. 30).

And Fr TK on lectio divina:

“If people were encouraged to reflect on scripture and be fully present to the words of the sacred text, and then practice a period of centering prayer, they would actually be in the tradition of lectio” (Fr TK, Open mind open heart, p. 30).
The only question is when.

Fr TK is aware of the criticism that he has unnaturally speeded things up. His answer is that people nowadays have a problem that may not have existed in the 16th century:
"To the objection that we might be introducing contemplative prayer too soon, my answer is that our contemporaries in the Western world have a special problem with discursive meditation because of the ingrained inclination to analyze things beyond all measure . . . " (Fr TK, Open mind open heart, p. 30).

 

[DBT]

buzzcut:

Now that I’ve had some time to look at the texts, and to think about what they say, I’m coming to see that Fr Keating and St John of the Cross have more in common than might be thought.

AND

Fr TK is aware of the criticism that he has unnaturally speeded things up. His answer is that people nowadays have a problem that may not have existed in the 16th century:
"To the objection that we might be introducing contemplative prayer too soon, my answer is that our contemporaries in the Western world have a special problem with discursive meditation because of the ingrained inclination to analyze things beyond all measure . . . " (Fr TK, Open mind open heart, p. 30).

I would be careful about trying to find similarities that probabaly aren’t there . . . I have fallen into that trap myself. I’m really concerned about the kind of thinking behind Fr. TK when he implies modern people need a “faster track” to contemplation.

There are alot of very good comments about the stages of prayer in this thread. Look for the discussions of Teresa’s mansions and the Prayer of Simplicity . . . CP might have some benefit for those whom the Lord has brought to the threshold of contemplation. But here’s the disconnect I see . . . for those approaching the 4th mansion (St Teresa), quiet, solitude and stillness of heart is the NATURAL STATE of the soul. Techniques aren’t needed because GOD HAS TAUGHT ONE HOW TO PRAY. So CP is a redundant proposition for those here.

For those in the earlier stages of prayer (mansions 1-3), to attempt CP as a way to “speed up the process” is to commit an unnatural act. Brother Lawrence (a Carmelite in the tradition of St Teresa and St John) had a wonderful, tongue-in-cheek admonishment for those impatient with the Lord or too prideful to think the natural progression of prayer through the mansions applies to them. He simply states they “would go faster than grace.”

And that’s the whole point . . . there is a natural progression of events in prayer that the Carmelite DOCTORS spent their entire lives describing for our benefit. I think they would probably be horrified by the thought that moderns think we need short-cuts in GOD’s work.

 

[buzzcut]

Hi, DBT, I think when I wrote “Fr TK is aware of the criticism that he has unnaturally speeded things up” I was using the vocabulary of his critics. I’m assuming that he himself wouln’t say that he has “unnaturally speeded things up.”

DBT:

there is a natural progression of events in prayer that the Carmelite DOCTORS spent their entire lives describing for our benefit.

Fr TK would probably respond that we ourselves have impeded the natural progression of events by over-intellection.

 

[buzzcut]

DBT:

CP might have some benefit for those whom the Lord has brought to the threshold of contemplation.

I can’t claim to be at that stage, but I would like to clarify one thing. If there were a Centering Prayer workshop near me, I would probably sign up for it. I would like to see what I can learn from it. But I can’t see myself becoming a regular Centering Pray-er. I wouldn’t want to limit my prayers to just one word. Not that there’s anything wrong with prayers of just one word, but not the same word to the exclusion of all others. But that’s just my personal preference, and not a criticism of anyone else.

 

[Joysong]

Exporter:

You posted an incorrect concept of C.P., especially in characteristic #1. I believe I came across this, as you must have done, in one of the links provided on this topic. The writer was apparently someone who was deeply opposed to it and expressed their private, but erroneous opinion to persuade others to agree with the writer’s viewpoint.

Two characteristics of Centering Prayer are:

1. Catholic prayers are those going OUT from an individual toward God. While Centering Prayer is Going Inward toward Self - not to God!!
2. Those who actually achieve Centering Prayer are in the third stage of hypnosis and if the mind has become empty (blank) the mind is open to any spirits that want to enter. Evil Spirits take advantage of a blank mind.

St. Teresa of Avila negates this opinion completely with her words in Interior Castle, Fourth Mansion, Chapter III: You will find that she aptly uses the image of a turtle to describe the experience of entering within oneself to find God. [

p://www.catholicfirst.com/thefaith/catholicclassics/stteresa/castle/interiorcastle3.cfm](http://www.catholicfirst.com/thefaith/catholicclassics/stteresa/castle/interiorcastle3.cfm)

I do not think I have ever explained this before as clearly as here. When we are seeking God within ourselves (where He is found more effectively and more profitably than in the creatures, to quote Saint Augustine, who, after having sought Him in many places, found Him within, it is a great help if God grants us this favour. Do not suppose that the understanding can attain to Him, merely by trying to think of Him as within the soul, or the imagination, by picturing Him as there. This is a good habit and an excellent kind of meditation, for it is founded upon a truth – namely, that God is within us. But it is not the kind of prayer that I have in mind, for anyone (with the help of the Lord, you understand) can practise it for himself. What I am describing is quite different.

These people are sometimes in the castle before they have begun to think about God at all. I cannot say where they entered it or how they heard their Shepherd’s call: it was certainly not with their ears, for outwardly such a call is not audible. They become markedly conscious that they are gradually retiring within themselves; anyone who experiences this will discover what I mean. I think I have read that they are like a hedgehog or a tortoise withdrawing into itself; and whoever wrote that must have understood it well. These creatures, however, enter within themselves whenever they like; whereas with us it is not a question of our will – it happens only when God is pleased to grant us this favour.

It is possible the person who misunderstood Keating’s meaning, was thinking of the fruit of prayer, which ought always directed outward to the world in bringing forth the Kingdom of God. We should not be too surprised to find persons who know little or nothing about prayer, distorting the teachings of St. John of the Cross., and no doubt Keating’s as well. I run into it quite a lot. When you consider it, even the Lord’s words in scripture are utterly misunderstood yet proclaimed by those who “think” they are qualified to present His truth to others. We need only to count the number of false religions to realize this.

As for concept #2, I don’t know how this originated, or who has the Church’s authority to overrule the writings of these saints and good spiritual persons in order to promote this opinion. You need to take it with a grain of salt, Exporter, which I suspect is extremely hard for you to do. Your unfortunate encounter with one or two persons who experienced C.P. and CCR in a negative manner has colored your thinking and prevented you from accepting any portion of truth that exists therein. It is ok to state this, possibly as a warning to others, so they may understand the writer completely before leaping into ill-timed misconceptions of error.

To excoriate the entire practice used by many who positively benefit from CCR or CP is to spread chaff among the wheat, and possibly result in another thread being closed. We hope to discuss with an open mind here, with a view to building up and safeguarding the participants so they *understand these very dangers *and know how to appropriate the teaching in a holy manner, should they feel a call to it.

 

[Jenlyn]

buzzcut:

Hi, Jenlyn, I was thinking about this and also about what AlanFromWichita said (in August of last year!) … perhaps Centering Prayer is an apophatic version of the prayer of recollection? What do you think?

What does apophatic mean?

 

[buzzcut]

Hi Jenlyn there’s some short definitions at the top of this page:

oregonvos.net/~jflory/apophatic.htm

Sorry got to go now.

 

[DBT]

Hi Buzzcutt -

Upon reflection, I fear I might have been a bit to strident in my post. If so, please accept my apology . . . I should probably stick to decaf

You are such a delightful soul . . . such seeking and yearning - while still in RCIA! I have no doubt you will be a credit to the Church.

What caught my attention in your post was a “been there, done that” kind of moment for me. May I offer a piece of advice my spiritual director gave me that I, to my detriment, didn’t follow for quite some time.

His advice: Stick to the Doctors of the Church. Along the way I strayed into all sorts of spiritual teachings. There were some good things in each of these . . . and some bad. The point was I wasn’t far enough along to know which was which. I’m still not.

Keep up your good work! I have no doubt you will be taught by experience that which you now seek through the intellect.

 

[mtr01]

DBT:

His advice: Stick to the Doctors of the Church. Along the way I strayed into all sorts of spiritual teachings. There were some good things in each of these . . . and some bad. The point was I wasn’t far enough along to know which was which. I’m still not.

I think this is the best piece of advice that could be given to anyone by anyone. One can simply not go wrong following the Doctors, especially in spiritual matters.

My question is, if we already have the great spiritual Doctors like Ss. Teresa of Jesus and John of the Cross…why do we need anyone else?

 

[gnome]

Fr.Most on CP:

What should we think of this? Two chief comments are in order. First, if one really does focus on the thought of God dwelling within the soul, there is a spiritual content-unlike TM. But one needs to watchout for mere vagueness, almost blankness, which could come in place of the thought of God, especially since the repetition of one word
can tend to have a mild hypnotic effect. Secondly, if all these
things are done well, we would have something similar to the Prayer
of Simplicity which we just described above. But: the repetitions in
this proposed prayer are much closer together than those in the true
Prayer of Simplicity, and further, that Prayer of Simplicity is not
something that just any person can take to at once. No, there is need
of a spiritual deepening, by much mortification, humility, some
degree of habitual recollection and other things. St. Jane de
Chantal’s comment which we quoted at the start of this chapter
applies well here.

In other words, one cannot use mere technique[8] to substitute for
spiritual growth, and get “instant contemplation,” as it were. It is
apt to be just an illusion-even though the one who practices it may
praise it and say it brings deep peace. A feeling of calm, yes, but
it is apt to be the calm of a blankness that approaches that of TM.
As such it can bring no spiritual growth.
ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/MOSTPRAY.TXT

 

[Joysong]

Dear DBT,

There are alot of very good comments about the stages of prayer in this thread. Look for the discussions of Teresa’s mansions and the Prayer of Simplicity . . . CP might have some benefit for those whom the Lord has brought to the threshold of contemplation. But here’s the disconnect I see . . . for those approaching the 4th mansion (St Teresa), quiet, solitude and stillness of heart is the NATURAL STATE of the soul. Techniques aren’t needed because GOD HAS TAUGHT ONE HOW TO PRAY. So CP is a redundant proposition for those here.

I believe the Lord is guiding us so well into understanding our saints’ writings, and it gives me so much joy to seem Him send thoughts through one another that helps to further the process.

Buzzcut was very much speaking truth, finding the similarities between Keating and St. John’s writings. You were correct that CP was redundant for the 4th mansion, prayer of quiet. This prayer is a gift of supernatural contemplation, but it does not last very long (15 minutes might be a norm), and it is not granted often - rather rarely, to be honest When a person is experiencing this gift, St. Teresa tells us how to respond, while the prayer is being communicated.

Although God may grant the soul this prayer on occasion, it does not mean the person is ready to go into the Dark Night experience,. At this stage of development in spirituality, the person may still have the ability to meditate, and will have attained to the practice of the presence of God very often in their day.

The imprtant difference with St. John is that one cannot meditate without experiencing a grave sense of disquiet whenever it is tried.

It is a perplexing trial for the person, for meditation was its joy, and it entered therein daily, finding much water for its spirit. The person comes to prayer desiring to know God even more, but finds nothing but insipidity. Of course, all three signs we discussed previously must be there also, to be sure that God Himself is the cause of this trial.

At that time, I believe both Keating and St. John say the same thing - to learn to be quiet in God’s presence, and keep their faculties centered on Him without desires to experience consolation. God is acting in the background without the soul perceiving it.

Keating wrote: “So long as you experience the undifferentiated, general, and loving presence of God beyond any thought, don’t go back to the sacred word. You are already at your destination.”

His writings are helpful to this stage of spirituality only, and it’s good to remember that he is a monk, probably writing for those who arrive at this juncture in spirituality. The danger and harm I see is that some do-gooders who do not know the ways of prayer, have discovered Keating’s book, and are presenting this in workshops to average Catholics who have in no way come this far.

This seems to be the lament of Father Dubay, who says it can be a dead end to prayer. I agree, if they are not prepared for it. And we see what Exporter’s dear one went through.

Buzzcut understands this, I believe, for he wrote: “So for beginners, the discursive meditation is helpful, but for proficients it is just the reverse – the discursive meditation is actually not helpful. It must be given up.”

I pray God will keep us on track and help us to understand, collectively, what is so difficult to learn on one’s own - through sharing our concerns and discoveries for the benefit of all.

Have a blessed Sunday in the Lord, DBT,

Carole