Centering Prayer

[gnome]

Fr. Hardon on CP:
“At the heart of centering prayer, there is no infinite God who created the world out of nothing.”
therealpresence.org/archives/Heresies_Heretics/Heresies_Heretics_004.htm

 

[Joysong]

DBT’s post reminded me of the real difficulty I had when I first tried to understand St. Teresa’s writings and read them along with St. John’s. It might help anyone who is following along to see the big difference between the two of them.

When St. Teresa writes about the Prayer of Recollection, the Prayer of Quiet, the Prayer of Union, etc., she is describing in her book the actual mystical experience of those particular infused touches that God grants to the soul.

St. John wrote in Spiritual Canticle that he defers the writing of these descriptions to St. Teresa, and he does not expound on them. So he wrote, instead, about the stage of spirituality in which these infused moments of prayer described by St. Teresa take place. Big difference! I hope this helps.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Gnome,

I looked up your reference to Father Harding, and I quite agree with what he answered in the conference about New age, and also about Merton’s writings. Since I very much loved Seven Story Mountain, I borrowed his later works thinking they would also bring inspiration.

It was all I could do to stay with any of them, for they had no life-giving water of inspiration, and my spirit was extremely empty and dry as I read them. I often felt interiorly that he had strayed from the truth.

However, Father Harding makes no mention of Father Keating’s writing. From the little I read so far in order to understand his (Keating’s) thinking, I don’t believe his thought is anything in line with what Father Harding described in his talk.

May we keep an open mind on this. I agree with you though, that God has given us many wonderful saints in the Church to guide us, and we do well to follow them. But let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water, for God is anxious that ALL come to the knowledge of truth. We have to help any who stumble, through no fault of their own, for God would have us rescue them with our love and patience. We do His Church a wonderful service if we gently show the differences in novel doctrines in light of what the saints wrote. I pray He helps us to discern, for there are many teaching C.P. who are clearly misguided as to the right application of it.

 

[gnome]

Joysong,

Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I agree we should always pray for God’s guidance in discernment, sometimes not directly due to our unworthyness but thru others… Regarding Fr. Hardon, I believe he comes to conclusion with plenty of understanding of the Saints’ teaching. Much more understanding than for someone like me to attempt to dig thru the Saint’s writings and build up an understanding on my own.

Ok, here’s one more to think about:

in explaining acquired contemplation, Father Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. states, “If by acquired contemplation we mean a prayer distinct from simplified affective prayer,* in which the intellect is totally absorbed by its object and in which we place ourselves by the suppression of all rational activity, we thereby not only create a degree of prayer unknown to St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross, but we likewise oppose their-explicit teaching. *In fact, St. Teresa repeatedly opposes the total suppression of discourse and the movement of thought as long as one has not received infused contemplation (Life, chap. 12; *The Interior Castle, *fourth mansion, chap. 3. St. John of the Cross, *The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Bk. *U, chap. 15).”

 

[Joysong]

Dear Gnome,

In explaining acquired contemplation, Father Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. states, "If by acquired contemplation we mean a prayer distinct from simplified affective prayer,* in which the intellect is totally absorbed* by its object and in which we place ourselves by the suppression of all rational activity, we thereby not only create a degree of prayer unknown to St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross, but we likewise oppose their-explicit teaching. In fact, St. Teresa repeatedly opposes the total suppression of discourse and the movement of thought as long as one has not received infused contemplation.

Yes, Gnome, and if I were your teacher, you would get an “A” because you have learned well! This is from your reference to St. John:

1. Rather, in these early stages, when, by means of the indications already given, they are able to see that the soul is not occupied in that repose and knowledge, they will need to make use of meditation until by means of it they come to acquire in some degree of perfection the habit which we have described. This will happen when, as soon as they seek to meditate, they experience this knowledge and peace, and find themselves unable to meditate and no longer desirous of doing so, as we have said. For until they reach this stage, which is that of the proficient in this exercise, they use sometimes the one and sometimes the other, at different times.

1. The soul, then, will frequently find itself in this loving or peaceful state of waiting upon God without in any way exercising its faculties – that is, with respect to particular acts – and without working actively at all, but only receiving. In order to reach this state, it will frequently need to make use of meditation, quietly and in moderation; but, when once the soul is brought into this other state, it acts not at all with its faculties, as we have already said.

It would be truer to say that understanding and sweetness work in it and are wrought within it, than that the soul itself works at all, save only by waiting upon God and by loving Him without desiring to feel or to see anything. Then God communicates Himself to it passively, even as to one who has his eyes open, so that light is communicated to him passively, without his doing more than keep them open.

This is just a confirmation of what Buzzcut wrote, however with the reservations of St. John above:
“So for beginners, the discursive meditation is helpful, but for proficients it is just the reverse – the discursive meditation is actually not helpful. It must be given up.”

I looked up your references for St. Teresa, and they are similar. She warned explicitly about the danger of “absorption,” in which a nun was found in this state for 8 hours. She may have spoken about herself, since I found reference to her teachings on it in Chapter XXII of her Life, and I posted excerpts from it, either here or in the Secular Carmelite thread, in case you’ve followed along.
There is nothing going on in this state, not even a sense of God’s presence, and she called it a dangerous waste of time.

If I have misunderstood what you wanted to share, please let me know, Gnome.

Carole

 

[DBT]

Joysong:

DBT’s post reminded me of the real difficulty I had when I first tried to understand St. Teresa’s writings and read them along with St. John’s. It might help anyone who is following along to see the big difference between the two of them.

When St. Teresa writes about the Prayer of Recollection, the Prayer of Quiet, the Prayer of Union, etc., she is describing in her book the actual mystical experience of those particular infused touches that God grants to the soul.

St. John wrote in Spiritual Canticle that he defers the writing of these descriptions to St. Teresa, and he does not expound on them. So he wrote, instead, about the stage of spirituality in which these infused moments of prayer described by St. Teresa take place. Big difference! I hope this helps.

And this is the crux of the matter to me. As an OCDS aspirant my knowledge and experience, by definition, is limited. I suspect that synthesizing John and Teresa will be the work of a lifetime.

Please help me to see if I’m understanding this correctly.

When Teresa speaks of “stages” (recollection, quiet, union etc) she is speaking about a specific session of prayer. For example, one could go to Eucharistic Adoration and be granted the Prayer of Quiet.

When John is speaking of “stages” (purgative, illuminative, unitive), he is talking about a period of years . . . maybe a lifetime.

One could be granted the Prayer of Union (Teresa) but not be in the Unitive stage (John). Terms can get very confusing in all of this.

Back to the point about John and CP. When one enters the Dark Night . . . the transition from the illuminative to unitive, CP can be viewed as a very worthwhile act. It is an expression of longing and waiting for He, who you once knew so well, but now has “abandoned” you.

Is this anywhere close?

 

[Joysong]

Dear D.B.T.,

:clapping: You’re doing very well, dear friend. It drove me nuts for a long time, and I did not have Carmel then, nor the advantage of a forum with friends to help out.

The problem is their terminology: “state” versus “stage.” I tended to view St. Teresa’s wording such as, “when a person arrives at this state” — and I read it as “stage.” Therefore, I believed the prayer of quiet was a “stage” and could not identify with what St. John was writing. Duh!!!

I believe she means “when one has advanced to the state of development that they are granted the prayer of quiet.” But I thought the p/q went on all the time and tried to adopt the means St. John recommended. Very confusing. So at least I have some background understanding the errors people can fall into, through not comprehending what they read.

My heart was clean, though, and God gave me understanding. That is why I cannot look down on anyone who, through no fault of their own, is trapped in a spirituality that is not true. We have to love them and do our best to provide solid food for them.

When Teresa speaks of “stages” (recollection, quiet, union etc) she is speaking about a specific session of prayer. For example, one could go to Eucharistic Adoration and be granted the Prayer of Quiet.
That is right, D.B.T.

When John is speaking of “stages” (purgative, illuminative, unitive), he is talking about a period of years . . . maybe a lifetime.
Yes, if you read the Dark Night, this may continue for a long period of years while the soul is being purified. However, he does not call it purgative, illuminative, unitive. These terms were used by Father Garrigou LaGrange, I believe, who wrote about the mystical life.
Rather, St. John calls the first period of purification a night of the “senses” for that is what must first be brought into subjection. The second night is a purification of the spirit, and can be quite a severe and lengthly trial - yes, many years. That is why these souls deserve our deep sympathy, for they think they are lost.

One could be granted the Prayer of Union (Teresa) but not be in the Unitive stage (John). Terms can get very confusing in all of this.
I would say when God grants this Prayer, the person has made a deep surrender to God after a long period of spiritual growth, and God accepts it by uniting it with Himself. It is no longer than an “ave maria” says St. Teresa. Whether or not it could be called a “unitive stage”, I don’t know. I only know that the effects that follow it cause a marked detachment from the world (in spirit, since they still live in the world) Teresa says the person feels like a lone sparrow on a rooftop, for it soars above everything that used to give it pleasure.

Back to the point about John and CP. When one enters the Dark Night . . . the transition from the illuminative to unitive, CP can be viewed as a very worthwhile act. It is an expression of longing and waiting for He, who you once knew so well, but now has “abandoned” you.
That is the sense the person has. God works passively all the while, provided they are able to keep this loving attentiveness toward Him, but His work is not perceived by the soul at first until they have spend some time in this “stage.” It is very grievous because they “feel” as though all blessings are over for them. St. John teaches them not to be concerned, with much explanation about this transition. He instructs us as does Keating, to just rest in loving, attentive quiet when we come to prayer, so as not to impede the passive work God wants to do.

St. John really tore into directors who don’t understand this, and who tell the soul to keep meditating, which the person cannot do. He said these directors are ruining the work of God. You may find the book rather fascinating if you have time to read. Some day it may be useful to you in helping yourself and others.

Carole

 

[DBT]

Phew!, Thank you so much Carole.

At least I’ll sleep well tonight . . . and when I apologize to Buzzcutt I’ll know what I’m apologizing for

I have heard of Fr. Garrigou LaGrange and have come close to buying his book . . . until I reconsidered the advice of my spiritual director to stick to the Doctors! I’ve been reading a bit of Spiritual Canticle and I thought I saw St. John using these terms (i.e. illuminative,unitive) . . . maybe I’m wrong or maybe Fr. LaGrange amplified and systematized it.

No doubt I’m a bit lost in the language of the Dark Night of the Spirit . . . somehow I think my Dark Night will be purgatory

 

[Mysty101]

Please remember a few things.

Many who are considering CP are not striving for Carmel. Although CP is a more advanced prayer form, it is not at the level of Carmel. CP (as taught by Keating & Pennington) is a very good prayer form for those novices in prayer striving for a deeper prayer life.

If we are sincere in our prayer and open to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, He will guide us. The deeper stages of prayer are from God, and although we can try to predispose ourselves, ultimately it is He who grants them, not we who achieve it. The best example of this is the Conversion of ST Paul.

In more advanced forms of prayer we do need Spiritual direction, and it is better if the SD agrees with the prayer form for which we are striving.

 

[RThomas]

Joysong:

…

One could be granted the Prayer of Union (Teresa) but not be in the Unitive stage (John). Terms can get very confusing in all of this.
I would say when God grants this Prayer, the person has made a deep surrender to God after a long period of spiritual growth, and God accepts it by uniting it with Himself. It is no longer than an “ave maria” says St. Teresa. Whether or not it could be called a “unitive stage”, I don’t know. I only know that the effects that follow it cause a marked detachment from the world (in spirit, since they still live in the world) Teresa says the person feels like a lone sparrow on a rooftop, for it soars above everything that used to give it pleasure.
…

Carole

Hello Carole,

To add a small comment to your excellent post,

Fr. G-L’s very good synthesis (in my humble opinion, anyway - although many share this praise) places the prayer of union and Teresa’s 5th mansions in the Unitive Stage.

Fr. G-L places as follows:
1st - 2nd mansions → Stage of Beginners / Purgative Stage;
3rd - 4th mansions → Stage of Proficients / Illuminative Stage;
5th - 6th - 7th mansions → Stage of Perfect / Unitive Stage.

Personally, I think that the alignment normally is a bit different. I say normally because it seems God is not confined quite as rigidly in our personal sanctification as we might want to be in our structuring of the spiritual life. It seems He will sometimes even allow a glimpse ahead, to strengthen us, before allowing us to return to a struggle or a purgation yet incomplete. Yet I believe and hold that God has instituted an intelligible and normative path, which I summarize partially below.

My own poor understanding is:

1st - 2nd - 3rd mansions → Stage of Beginners / Purgative Stage;
4th - 5th mansions → Stage of Proficients / Illuminative Stage;
6th - 7th mansions → Stage of Perfect / Unitive Stage.

Thus personally I would suggest her prayer of union to be in the illuminative stage, and prior to the dark night of the spirit.

Thomas

 

[DBT]

Mysty101:

Please remember a few things.
Many who are considering CP are not striving for Carmel. Although CP is a more advanced prayer form, it is not at the level of Carmel. CP (as taught by Keating & Pennington) is a very good prayer form for those novices in prayer striving for a deeper prayer life.

True, much of the discussion of CP has taken a Carmelite turn of late . . . but the purpose of that is to try and help explain what Fr. Keating et al are trying to do. To add some much needed context.

I’ll try to summarize, to the best of my ability, how I’m seeing all of this fit together. My basis point is Fr. Keating’s “Intimacy With God” as this is my only exposure to him.

In this book I see nothing of the “stages” of prayer associated with St. John and much that can be likened to “states” in the tradition of Teresa. However the discussion is nowhere as complete or robust as Teresa.

To me, Fr. Keating’s book is written for someone who is on the cusp of infused contemplation. To use a poor analogy, the book seems to begin and end at what Teresa would call the 4th Mansion . . . keep in mind she had 7. Also, this is not the point for beginners.

The questions I always asked myself about “Intimacy With God” are:

1. How did I get here?
2. Where am I going?

IMHO, St. Teresa and St John do a much better job of answering those questions . . . with Fr. Keating I felt like I was in limbo.

In all fairness to Fr. Keating, I believe he writes in the spirit of Vatican II . . . with the suposition that contemplation is a possibility open to all. For better or worse, there is a sense I have that he is trying to write for the masses, trying to promote and popularize it. In this, he stands in contrast to the author of “The Cloud Of Unknowing” whom Fr. Keating’s writings are sometimes linked. Keep in mind the author of the Cloud gave a very clear warning to his reader (not readers) NOT to share his book with anyone who wasn’t ready for the gift of contemplation.

I believe that those who have benefited from CP were being led by God down the path toward infused contemplation anyway. Again, IMHO the Carmelite Doctors are a much better guide for those who’ve reached that point. For those that have been harmed by CP . . . well once again, Teresa and John would have much to say about that.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Thomas,

I agree with you that the persons who experience the “prayer of union” in the 5th mansion are not fully in the unitive stage, as Fr. G-L puts this experience. They are not yet at the stage of spiritual betrothal, which this prayer is not, nor would I think they are in the stage of the perfect. Hardly!

5th - 6th - 7th mansions → Stage of Perfect / Unitive Stage.

I believe Father G-L’s book is good for those who need a general understanding of the virtues and a glimpse at the progressive stages of prayer, but there is no comparison with St. John or St. Teresa, whose teachings are far more thorough.

Dear D.B.T.

For the reason I just mentioned, I think your director is wise in not confusing you by introducing the book by Fr. G-L, especially since you are in Carmel.

Dear Mysty,

I’m sorry you have the idea that St. John of the Cross’s teachings are only for Carmelites. He has the title of Doctor because he is a master in whom we can confidently place our trust to lead us wisely in our prayer life and spiritual growth.

What irony in the reversal of ideologies from his day to our day. You wrote: CP (as taught by Keating & Pennington) is a very good prayer form for those novices in prayer striving for a deeper prayer life.

I thought about St. John’s indignation with spiritual directors who interfered with God’s work by insisting the person resume meditation. He was directing many holy souls who had advanced to contemplation, and could no longer meditate.

Were he still alive today, I believe he would censure the opposite failing of those directors who believe meditation is not necessary to arrive at contemplation. I have to disagree with you, that novices in prayer are able to practice CP without real danger. It occurred to me that maybe you have not followed the entire thread, as you stated in a recent post.

 

[mtr01]

DBT:

To me, Fr. Keating’s book is written for someone who is on the cusp of infused contemplation. To use a poor analogy, the book seems to begin and end at what Teresa would call the 4th Mansion . . . keep in mind she had 7. Also, this is not the point for beginners.

I’m glad you said this, DBT! I know that I had a very erroneous opinion of CP at first (based mainly on it’s misapplication). From digging more into it, as well as St. Teresa’s writings, it seemed pretty clear to me that CP was pretty much confined to the 4th Mansion. Granted, my knowledge is very wanting as I am quite the lowly beginner on the path of advanced prayer.

Through all of this, one question keeps coming back to my mind, though. Not to seem condescending or insulting, but if CP is only relevant to the 4th Mansions, and if we can always turn to the Carmelite Doctors, what point is there really to CP? It seems to me that any benefit from it is outweighed by the damaged caused by its misapplication.

 

[DBT]

mtr01:

I’m glad you said this, DBT! I know that I had a very erroneous opinion of CP at first (based mainly on it’s misapplication). From digging more into it, as well as St. Teresa’s writings, it seemed pretty clear to me that CP was pretty much confined to the 4th Mansion. Granted, my knowledge is very wanting as I am quite the lowly beginner on the path of advanced prayer.

Through all of this, one question keeps coming back to my mind, though. Not to seem condescending or insulting, but if CP is only relevant to the 4th Mansions, and if we can always turn to the Carmelite Doctors, what point is there really to CP? It seems to me that any benefit from it is outweighed by the damaged caused by its misapplication.

Hi mtr01 -

Please keep in mind this is just my impression of a single book - “Intimacy With God.” Others here cite different books by him so maybe Fr. Keating has more to say . . . I just don’t know.

Again, from this book alone, I got a bit of the sense of the almost desperate need for instant gratification in our present day and age. Not to be flippant, but it struck me like it was a Big Mac and Coke to John and Teresa’s filet and $200 bottle of Merlot.

Probably shouldn’t have said that . . . but I do think it is only wise and prudent to evaluate CP in the light of the Doctors of the Church. It is the only way to seperate the good from the bad.

And I do think it is potentially harmful to position CP as the way for novices . . . in that, I think the author of The Cloud had it right.

 

[DBT]

mtr01:

I’m glad you said this, DBT! I know that I had a very erroneous opinion of CP at first (based mainly on it’s misapplication). From digging more into it, as well as St. Teresa’s writings, it seemed pretty clear to me that CP was pretty much confined to the 4th Mansion. Granted, my knowledge is very wanting as I am quite the lowly beginner on the path of advanced prayer.

Through all of this, one question keeps coming back to my mind, though. Not to seem condescending or insulting, but if CP is only relevant to the 4th Mansions, and if we can always turn to the Carmelite Doctors, what point is there really to CP? It seems to me that any benefit from it is outweighed by the damaged caused by its misapplication.

Hi mtr01 -

Please keep in mind this is just my impression of a single book - “Intimacy With God.” I wouldn’t go so far to say that Fr. Keating thinks CP is somehow limited to a specific state (he doesn’t speak in Teresian terms anyway) . . . but this book did seem to leave me in a bit of a void. Others here cite different books by him so maybe Fr. Keating has more to say . . . I just don’t know.

Again, from this book alone, I got a bit of the sense of the almost desperate need for instant gratification in our present day and age. Probably shouldn’t have said that . . . but I do think it is only wise and prudent to evaluate CP in the light of the Doctors of the Church. It is the only way to seperate the good from the bad.

And I do think it is potentially harmful to position CP as the way for novices . . . in that, I think the author of The Cloud had it right.

 

[mtr01]

DBT:

Hi mtr01 -

Please keep in mind this is just my impression of a single book - “Intimacy With God.” I wouldn’t go so far to say that Fr. Keating thinks CP is somehow limited to a specific state (he doesn’t speak in Teresian terms anyway) . . . but this book did seem to leave me in a bit of a void. Others here cite different books by him so maybe Fr. Keating has more to say . . . I just don’t know.

Thanks for your response, DBT. I took a look back at my original post, and it seems like I was bit too free with the English language. I wrote something to the effect of “it seemed clear that CP was confined to the 4th Mansion”. What I really wanted to convey is that it was my impression, as well, that CP used in a legitimate manner was only relevant to the 4th Mansion. In essence, my conclusion is similar to yours. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

DBT:

Again, from this book alone, I got a bit of the sense of the almost desperate need for instant gratification in our present day and age. Probably shouldn’t have said that . . . but I do think it is only wise and prudent to evaluate CP in the light of the Doctors of the Church. It is the only way to seperate the good from the bad.

And I do think it is potentially harmful to position CP as the way for novices . . . in that, I think the author of The Cloud had it right.

I agree, and it is a rather sad state of affairs. It seems that the majority of the world has been consumed by a fast-food, e-mail, instant gratification mentality. People wants things (everything?) and they want them NOW. I also think that a horribly detrimental side-effect is that this instant gratification almost always leads to a devaluation of that which is obtained (sexual gratification is a prime example IMHO). I think this trend has definitely infected spiritual matters as well. It seems dangerous to me to take legitimate spiritual practices and use them illegitimately as a “short-cut” to God. As you point out, it is then that we must turn to the Doctors.

 

[DBT]

cont’d with mtr01:

Speaking of states . . . and going entirely from memory . . . Fr. Keating used terms like “walking down a spiral staircase to your inner core” or “peeling layers off an onion” or “floating down a river” to describe the experience of prayer he was teaching.

I’m sure there are others here better qualified to say if this kind of explanation can be likened to Teresa’s progression through recollection, quiet, union etc. Maybe this was just his attempt to modernize the language to make it more applicable to us moderns.

He also used terms like “unloading the sub-concious” as a way to discern what was a distraction at prayer and what was something that needed to be dealt with. That made me a tad uncomfortable. It gave me the sense that WE, somehow, are responsible for managing and directing our prayer rather than God.

 

[DBT]

cont’d with mtr01 again!

And since I can’t answer any of these questions in my own mind, nor do I have the ability or experience to reconcile Fr. Keating to Teresa and John beyond merely stating my opinion (which might be informed or might not) . . . I do what seems the safefest thing for me: stick to the Doctors.

Funny how I keep coming back to the same point And with that, I’ve probably said all I can say on this subject.

I apologize to all if my recent posts come across as thinking out loud . . . but that’s exactly what this has been for me: a very fruitful learning exercise

 

[buzzcut]

DBT, I am similar to you … I have reached the limit of my abilities to understand this subject. But there is a Yahoo group I have just discovered where Fr Basil Pennington will answer questions.

groups.yahoo.com/group/CenteringPrayer/messages

 

[DBT]

buzzcut:

DBT, I am similar to you … I have reached the limit of my abilities to understand this subject

Hi Buzzcutt -

I’ll ammend my last post to the following: I’ll stick to the Doctors AND Clint Eastwood . . . “A man’s gotta know his limitations.”

I will try, however, to follow along here if things continue to develop.

Best of luck to you Buzz . . .