Centering Prayer

[Mysty101]

Joysong:

IDear Mysty,

I’m sorry you have the idea that St. John of the Cross’s teachings are only for Carmelites. He has the title of Doctor because he is a master in whom we can confidently place our trust to lead us wisely in our prayer life and spiritual growth.
What irony in the reversal of ideologies from his day to our day. You wrote: CP (as taught by Keating & Pennington) is a very good prayer form for those novices in prayer striving for a deeper prayer life.
It occurred to me that maybe you have not followed the entire thread, as you stated in a recent post.

I said I had not read the entire Carmel thread.

I never said anything against ST John or Carmel. I have read St John, but not studied Carmel. And I shouldn’t have said “novice” What I did mean is those advanced in prayer, but not striving for Carmel.
This is what I said

Many who are considering CP are not striving for Carmel. Although CP is a more advanced prayer form, it is not at the level of Carmel. CP (as taught by Keating & Pennington) is a very good prayer form for those novices in prayer striving for a deeper prayer life.

I suppose It would have been clearer if I had said

Many who are considering CP are not striving for Carmel. Although CP is a more advanced prayer form, it is not at the level of Carmel. CP (as taught by Keating & Pennington) is a very good prayer form for those advanced, but less advanced than Carmel, who are striving for a deeper prayer life.

 

[Joysong]

Hi SuZ,

I’m so glad you clarified your meaning. I did not really believe these were your true thoughts on the matter.

Just a quick side note. I pray our readers don’t form the impression that those who have the vocation to Carmel are striving harder for perfection that any other person who may receive a different vocational call. It is important to echo the post that Jenlyn shared with us after her discovery — that ALL are indirectly called to contemplation.

God bless you always,
Carole

 

[Mysty101]

Joysong:

Hi SuZ,

I’m so glad you clarified your meaning. I did not really believe these were your true thoughts on the matter.

— that ALL are indirectly called to contemplation.

God bless you always,
Carole

And God bless YOU!!! :angel1:

Perhaps we should revisit the differences between Contempletive Prayer, acquired Contemplation, infused Contemplation, and Mysticism.

When I studied Mysticism at the Franciscan Center, we were given the definition “experiential awareness of the presence of God”. Very rare–noting only the Canonized Mystics. Is this what you call “infused Contemplation”?

As I understand, Contempletive Prayer is the striving toward acquired Contemplation—which is deep meditation, but not union. (This would be the stage at which CP would be helpful) Does this agree with your Spirituality?

Also lets reemphesize the importance of Spiritual direction on this journey - preferably a specific SD, but if this is not possible, a regular confessor with whom you share your prayer life.

 

[springbreeze]

Dear DBT

I have found that the TRUTH never confuses, the truth when found is like someone literally switching on a light bulb, it not only illuminates the mind and heart, but it illuminates everything in the senses and the whole world we experience. It puts everything into it’s correct order in the Universe, it is a moment of CLARITY and PEACE.

This is not to say that sometimes our perception and understanding of what we are experiencing may be limited, but I have found God never leaves the human spirit to flounder, He provides the answers and the answers are the LIGHT that illuminates.

So therefore anything that causes much confusion is to my mind eclipsing the TRUTH, if the debate is on-going, seems to have no end and no LIGHT at the end of that tunnel, then I would state that it is of confusion maybe not intentionally, maybe the intent behind it is for the good of the soul, but in this it causes confusion, which in-turn causes a lack of peace and Jesus is the Prince of Peace.

Divisiveness is to be avoided at all costs, it is not Prudent to pursue something that causes division within the mind, soul spirit and between people’s.

What God provides in prayer, because prayer is not our action, it is God’s action is for the ultimate peace and clarity of the soul, to illuminate humanity of Himself, for them to know Him and as such serve and love Him. Prayer is not an action we can force, manufacture, manipulate nor innovate on. Prayer is the soul led by God, we can dispose ourselves to prayer by accepting the invitation God gives to all to come and know, speak and listent ot Him, we increase this by practising the habit of prayer and that is simply to say to God ‘I am here’, we actively place ourselves in His Presence, that is why all things of life are and should be prayer…He teaches and we learn, He draws us and we grow in Him

In the Our Father we say ‘Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done’ How can this be if we do not come to know God and what He requires of us to be instruments and servants of His Love? The Church has constantly prayed and studied Sacred Scripture to come to know this and continues to do so under the Holy Spirit, looking back to the great Saints who were gifted by God to enrich His people and show them His Holy Will. The Saints have not erred in their Doctrine and neither therefore has the church, it is a source of LIGHT through Christ Jesus, it is not an instrument of confusion…

If you see no light at the end of the tunnel, no consolation to confirm it as of the light…then dear friend I would say it ultimately does not lead to the FULLNESS of Light.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[DBT]

springbreeze:

Divisiveness is to be avoided at all costs, it is not Prudent to pursue something that causes division within the mind, soul spirit and between people’s.

Hi Springbreeze -

Thank you for your comments.

Yes, I think there is a division in my mind and spirit about all of this right now as evidenced in my posts. This has been something I’ve been trying to reconcile for sometime. I’m torn between a desire to let it all go and the advice of my SD that it’s healthy and necessary to work it through. Maybe a public forum isn’t the best place to do that, though. I had hoped this searching might benefit myself . . . and others.

I apologize to anyone here, though, if I created division among people. That certainly wasn’t my intent . . . but then maybe that’s how it might have come across.

So all of this brings me back to Joysongs last post. I would like to echo her sentiments to all.

 

[gnome]

Joysong:

I looked up your references for St. Teresa, and they are similar. She warned explicitly about the danger of “absorption,” in which a nun was found in this state for 8 hours. She may have spoken about herself, since I found reference to her teachings on it in Chapter XXII of her Life, and I posted excerpts from it, either here or in the Secular Carmelite thread, in case you’ve followed along.
There is nothing going on in this state, not even a sense of God’s presence, and she called it a dangerous waste of time.

If I have misunderstood what you wanted to share, please let me know, Gnome.

Hi Carole,

my understanding: St. Teresa opposes the suppression of thoughts, which is a condition of CP technique to lead to contemplative prayer. In this Chapter:

“One preparation for listening to Him, as certain books tell us, is that we should contrive, not to use our reasoning powers, but to be intent upon discovering what the Lord is working in the soul; for, if His Majesty has not begun to grant us absorption, I cannot understand how we can cease thinking in any way which will not bring us more harm than profit, although this has been a matter of continual discussion among spiritual persons.
For my own part, I confess my lack of humility, but their arguments have never seemed to me good enough to lead me to accept what they say.”

Then she said her position is based on 4 reasons.
What do you think of all this?

 

[springbreeze]

DBT:

Hi Springbreeze -

Thank you for your comments.

Yes, I think there is a division in my mind and spirit about all of this right now as evidenced in my posts. This has been something I’ve been trying to reconcile for sometime. I’m torn between a desire to let it all go and the advice of my SD that it’s healthy and necessary to work it through. Maybe a public forum isn’t the best place to do that, though. I had hoped this searching might benefit myself . . . and others.

I apologize to anyone here, though, if I created division among people. That certainly wasn’t my intent . . . but then maybe that’s how it might have come across.

So all of this brings me back to Joysongs last post. I would like to echo her sentiments to all.

Dearest DBT

You have not caused any division, the issues of if CP is to be promoted and is a good and healthy way to pray is what has caused division. This is what I was referring to and I am very sorry if it appeared I was making a personal statement towards yourself. I wasn’t and wouldn’t do that to you.

So please no apology required, you are simply trying to find out if CP is beneficial and what exactly it achieves for a soul as well as any other thoughts and questions you have on this subject.

I relpied to your posts in here specifically because I spent many an hour wondering if CP would serve to deepen my prayer life and if it would be of benefit in other ways and I concluded that no it wouldn’t and for the reasons I have stated in previous posts.(No-one wants me to repeat myself …drone …drone !!)

So seeing as I am not a fan nor a promoter of CP my advice is biased and so is anyone else’s who is not for CP. So is the advice of someone who is Pro-CP…there is no official line on this from the Vatican…so where is a person left???

Will my prayer life cease if I do not use CP…no

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[buzzcut]

gnome:

my understanding: St. Teresa opposes the suppression of thoughts, which is a condition of CP technique to lead to contemplative prayer. In this Chapter:

I don’t know if we’re all talking about the same chapter here but I found this on the internet:

“One person was in this state for eight hours; she was not unconscious, nor was she conscious of anything concerning God. She was cured by being told to take more food and sleep and to do less penance”

Link: Interior Castle IV.3

It sounds like a simple physiological condition – a semi-comatose state brought on by lack of food and sleep. That’s what they did in those days. I don’t think it has anything to do with prayer.

gnome:

my understanding: St. Teresa opposes the suppression of thoughts, which is a condition of CP technique to lead to contemplative prayer. In this Chapter:

We established a few days ago that suppression of thoughts is not a part of Centering Prayer. There are several citations earlier in the thread where you can check this out.

 

[DBT]

springbreeze:

So please no apology required, you are simply trying to find out if CP is beneficial and what exactly it achieves for a soul as well as any other thoughts and questions you have on this subject.

Not to worry Teresa . . . believe me, I know what you were saying Discussions such as these sometimes have the tendancy to pass off opinion as fact . . . I am certainly no authority.

springbreeze:

I relpied to your posts in here specifically because I spent many an hour wondering if CP would serve to deepen my prayer life and if it would be of benefit in other ways and I concluded that no it wouldn’t

Yeah, I know! I’m there in my heart . . . but not the mind - thus the searching.

Glancing back through my copy of Fr. Keatings book I see much that could be potentially good. Actually, he makes many more references to Teresa and John than I remembered . . . and even likens his expression of contemplative prayer in Teresian terms (recollection,quiet,union etc.) which I didn’t recognize *at all * the previous times I read it.

The frustrating part is that he just drops all these useful nuggets . . . and then moves on to his next point. What he might say in just one sentence would be treated in page after page by a John or Teresa.

To someone steeped in the contemplative life and versed in the teachings of the Doctors . . . well, there might be some value here. To those less experienced, I fear the significance of what he has to say goes in one ear and out the other giving the impression that CP is all about technique.

So what I’m grappling with is not so much WHAT he says as HOW he says it and WHO he’s saying it to.

There I go again . . . yada, yada, yada

 

[buzzcut]

Here’s an interesting quote:

“19. Therefore, one has to interpret correctly the teaching of those masters who recommend “emptying” the spirit of all sensible representations and of every concept, while remaining lovingly attentive to God. In this way, the person praying creates an empty space which can then be filled by the richness of God. However, the emptiness which God requires is that of the renunciation of personal selfishness, not necessarily that of the renunciation of those created things which he has given us and among which he has placed us. There is no doubt that in prayer one should concentrate entirely on God and as far as possible exclude the things of this world which bind us to our selfishness.”

LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith with my emphasis added.

What it seems to say is that Centering Prayer is okay, in fact more than okay, but only if it’s understood properly, and only if it’s used as a way to abandon our personal selfishness, and not as a way of abandoning the world altogether.

Comments?

 

[gnome]

buzzcut:

Here’s an interesting quote:

“19. Therefore, one has to interpret correctly the teaching of those masters who recommend “emptying” the spirit of all sensible representations and of every concept, while remaining lovingly attentive to God. In this way, the person praying creates an empty space which can then be filled by the richness of God. However, the emptiness which God requires is that of the renunciation of personal selfishness, not necessarily that of the renunciation of those created things which he has given us and among which he has placed us. There is no doubt that in prayer one should concentrate entirely on God and as far as possible exclude the things of this world which bind us to our selfishness.”

LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith with my emphasis added.

Comments?

But the difference is: to “remain lovingly attentive to God”, you have to meditate on a Mystery (e.g. the Rosary), not just any one word, AND the mind is open for His thoughts to come, not
suppresing…

more interesting on same letter:

1. Some physical exercises automatically produce a feeling of quiet and relaxation, pleasing sensations, perhaps even phenomena of light and of warmth, which resemble spiritual well-being. To take such feelings for the authentic consolations of the Holy Spirit would be a totally erroneous way of conceiving the spiritual life. Giving them a symbolic significance typical of the mystical experience, when the moral condition of the person concerned does not correspond to such an experience, would represent a kind of mental schizophrenia which could also lead to psychic disturbance and, at times, to moral deviations.
2. The love of God, the sole object of Christian contemplation, is a reality which cannot be “mastered” by any method or technique. On the contrary, we must always have our sights fixed on Jesus Christ, in whom God’s love went to the cross for us and there assumed even the condition of estrangement from the Father (cf. Mk 13:34). We therefore should allow God to decide the way he wishes to have us participate in his love. But we can never, in any way, seek to place ourselves on the same level as the object of our contemplation

 

[Mysty101]

gnome:

But the difference is: to “remain lovingly attentive to God”, you have to meditate on a Mystery (e.g. the Rosary), not just any one word, AND the mind is open for His thoughts to come, not
suppresing…

This is what YOU may need to do, but not everybody.

If you be still God can speak to you—He cannot speak if you are talking (or actively thinking)

 

[Augustine]

Mysty101:

He cannot speak if you are talking (or actively thinking)

Not really. He can shut you up.

No technique is necessary to hear God’s words, for Catholicism is not Gnosticism.

 

[springbreeze]

Mysty101:

If you be still God can speak to you—He cannot speak if you are talking (or actively thinking)

Dear Mysty

I personally would not want to limit the Almighty in this way. I think in all circumstances, places, noise, no noise etc He is perfectly able to ‘speak’ to us …it is ‘us’ that is not listening.

The more I read about CP, the more I am convinced it is not ‘prayer’ it is just a method of a soul predisposing itself to prayer.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Mysty101]

springbreeze:

Dear Mysty

I personally would not want to limit the Almighty in this way. I think in all circumstances, places, noise, no noise etc He is perfectly able to ‘speak’ to us …it is ‘us’ that is not listening.

The more I read about CP, the more I am convinced it is not ‘prayer’ it is just a method of a soul predisposing itself to prayer.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

Of course I did not mean that He couldn’t speak—I did mean that we could not hear, if we were not listening.

 

[gnome]

hmm I ran into this old newsletter, which sort of confirm my conclusion on CP…

centeringprayer.com/newsltrs/1988Decnews.htm

Annual Meeting at Chrysalis House
Marking the fourth anniversary of the founding of Contemplative Outreach by Fr. Thomas Keating, the Executive Director along with members of the Advisory Board and the Board of Directors met with Father Thomas on Monday, October l0th at Chrysalis House, Warwick, NY. This was the first annual meeting of both Boards.

The main topics of discussion were Finances, the direct mail appeal, the presentation of the first draft of the Presenter’s Manual for Introductory Workshops and Follow-up, the reorganization of the Newsletter, the need for outreach to the Hispanic community, and the possibility of opening communication with the TV ministry within the U.S.A. There was also news of the work of Fr. Basil Pennington at Medjugorje. Also, Ivan, one of the missionaries, has revealed that the Blessed Mother is interested in having the Centering Prayer practice taught to his advisor,
Father Slavko.

 

[1_Maria]

Augustine:

No technique is necessary to hear God’s words, for Catholicism is not Gnosticism.

That’s precisely what I heard in a homily recently. It’s sad to see how things like Gnosticism seem to freely attack the Church from within.

Maria

 

[Joysong]

I believe the tone has changed, and is now time for me to exit. Before I do so, these words from St. Teresa clearly show that a technique such as C.P. is not necessary for contemplation.

Way of Perfection, Chapter 25:

**
**

****Describes the great gain which comes to a soul when it practises vocal prayer perfectly. Shows how God may raise it thence to things supernatural. ****

In case you should think there is little gain to be derived from practising vocal prayer perfectly, I must tell you that, while you are repeating the Paternoster or some other vocal prayer, it is quite possible for the Lord to grant you perfect contemplation. In this way His Majesty shows that He is listening to the person who is addressing Him, and that, in His greatness, He is addressing her, by suspending the understanding, putting a stop to all thought, and, as we say, taking the words out of her mouth, so that even if she wishes to speak she cannot do so, or at any rate not without great difficulty.

Such a person understands that, without any sound of words, she is being taught by this Divine Master, Who is suspending her faculties, which, if they were to work, would be causing her harm rather than profit. The faculties rejoice without knowing how they rejoice; the soul is enkindled in love without understanding how it loves; it knows that it is rejoicing in the object of its love, yet it does not know how it is rejoicing in it. It is well aware that this is not a joy which can be attained by the understanding; the will embraces it, without understanding how; but, in so far as it can understand anything, it perceives that this is a blessing which could not be gained by the merits of all the trials suffered on earth put together. It is a gift of the Lord of earth and Heaven, Who gives it like the God He is. This, daughters, is perfect contemplation.

It should be apparent to all that one does not need to concentrate on a sacred word, suspend their thought, or anything else, for God to initiate contemplation. St. Teresa mentioned elsewhere, too, that God may bestow this gift while a person is actively engaged in their routine duties, wherein it can be both Martha and Mary simultaneously.

I was sorry to learn in the post by Gnome, that Keating was attempting to widely promote CP through the media. That dispels my notion that he was writing to proficients, such as those living a deep life of prayer in a monastery.

For any who have been following along and still cannot form a conclusion on CP, scripture teaches us in Sirach 3:20-23:

“What is too sublime for you, seek not; into things beyond your understanding, search not. With what is too much for you, meddle not when shown things beyond human understanding. Their own opinion has misled many, and false reasoning unbalanced their judgment.”

 

[Mysty101]

Originally Posted by Augustine

No technique is necessary to hear God’s words, for Catholicism is not Gnosticism.

1 Maria:

That’s precisely what I heard in a homily recently. It’s sad to see how things like Gnosticism seem to freely attack the Church from within.
Maria

This is very interesting Mary,
from the Catholic Encyclopedia

Gnosticism
The doctrine of salvation by knowledge. This definition, based on the etymology of the word (gnosis “knowledge”, gnostikos, “good at knowing”), is correct as far as it goes, but it gives only one, though perhaps the predominant, characteristic of Gnostic systems of thought. Whereas Judaism and Christianity, and almost all pagan systems, hold that the soul attains its proper end by obedience of mind and will to the Supreme Power, i.e. by faith and works, it is markedly peculiar to Gnosticism that it places the salvation of the soul merely in the possession of a quasi-intuitive knowledge of the mysteries of the universe and of magic formulae indicative of that knowledge. Gnostics were “people who knew”, and their knowledge at once constituted them a superior class of beings, whose present and future status was essentially different from that of those who, for whatever reason, did not know

and your post from the CCR thread.

To me, it honestly looks as if there are two CCR movements; the one that follows what the Pope desires which is the one I and many of my friends love and promote and which we highly recommend to anyone who feels called to the CCR…

And then there’s the ‘authentic’ CCR that seems to promote only itself. I do have quotes from people on this Message Board and one other one that are from two or three people on this Board to back up what I just said.

 

[Mysty101]

Joysong:

I believe the tone has changed, and is now time for me to exit.

Agreed. It is sad when the disruptive element keeps ruining civil discussions, especially with personal opinion and hearsay.

Let’s pray . I would like to continue the discussion on definitions.

I was sorry to learn in the post by Gnome, that Keating was attempting to widely promote CP through the media. That dispels my notion that he was writing to proficients, such as those living a deep life of prayer in a monastery.

As I said, I believe that CP can be for those begining their journey to deeper prayer, perhaps not as advanced as you thought, but still having a good prayer life at present. Keating realizes this prayer form can be beneficial to many people seeking a deeper prayer life. As I said, it is a wonderful prayer form to use in adoration.

God bless you and I hope you stick around —You are a blessing to us.

Love & Prayers,