Certainty (or uncertainty) in salvation

[dcana]

I think everyone can agree to this right? To me, this lessens the value of the physical act of confession because the CERTAINTY of the state of grace granted after confession quickly becomes QUESTIONABLE as soon as one sins. There must be “something else” that would allow us to sleep easy at night.

What allows us to sleep easy at night is precisely what I wrote above concerning the Love of God for us, His desire that His children be saved, His providential care for us, His omnipotence, His omniscience, and His fathomless mercy and perfect justice:

In peace I will sleep, and I will rest: For thou, O Lord, singularly hast settled me in hope.

• Psalm 4:9-10

If we trust in Him and in His care for us, we can say with St. Padre Pio:

“Pray, trust, and do not worry.”

That’s really what it comes down to. It’s that simple.

As a whole, it sounds like the “something else” I mentioned above is some sort of true desire for repentance. I think that this matters more than the physical act of confession and is ultimately of more value from a salvation standpoint. I think that this true desire for repentance is what shields you for a longer time from eternal punishment. Just to be clear, I’m not saying that the physical acts of confession or baptism don’t have any value. However, it’s the true desire for them that’s more important. After all, a baptism or confession done thoughtlessly wouldn’t count right?

How does this sound?

If we always love God and desire to do His will, then we will always feel remorse and repent when we commit sin. Maybe that’s what you mean when you say that it is “more valuable” from a salvation standpoint. But if we commit mortal sin, then Confession and Confession alone, save for being able to make an act of perfect contrition, will restore us to His grace and save us from hell. I’d say that’s pretty valuable from a salvation standpoint. It also strengthens you with extra graces not to sin again. You are right, without true contrition, Confession does nothing. Both are necessary. Because of this, I don’t believe you can say that one is “more valuable” than the other, as if these things can be measured and quantified.

Without Confession, serious sins (at least ordinarily) cannot be forgiven, except if one is able to make an act of perfect contrition. Without repentance, one cannot be forgiven of any sin by any means whatsoever, IMO. I should think that most of us are, in fact, not able to make an act of perfect contrition, because we lack sufficient charity (i.e. a profound love for God, and that for His sake and His sake alone). However, God is not bound by the Sacraments. Maybe, doing a bit of speculating, if we die without the benefit of being able to go to confession God would at the point of death give us extra grace to be able to make an act of perfect contrition. However, that is just speculation. I’m feebly trying to think of how God’s infinite mercy and providential care might work out in a real-life situation, but we don’t rely on speculation, we rely on what God has directly revealed to us. But, God being God, He knows all that will happen and can make things work out so if we need to go to confession, we will be able to go to confession. Do some people die without being able to go to confession? Sure. Maybe it was not necessary for them to go to confession, or possibly it would have done them no good anyway (like them not having any real repentance). Does God not know these things? Is He not in control of all things, including when “accidents” happen? The main point is, I need not speculate on God’s desire to have us be with Him for all eternity, His infinite charity, and perfect justice. With that, I can rest easy. The only reason not to rest easy is if we know we are deliberately going against God’s will, living a sinful life, and don’t really care to do anything about it. For souls who are lost, it is not in any way due to God not giving them sufficient graces to be saved or not having enough mercy towards them. It is their own fault.

Seek the LORD while he may be found,
call upon him while he is near;
let the wicked forsake his way,
and the unrighteous man his thoughts;
let him return to the LORD, that he may have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Isaiah 55:6-9

 

[truthseekerjay]

What allows us to sleep easy at night is precisely what I wrote above concerning the Love of God for us, His desire that His children be saved, His providential care for us, His omnipotence, His omniscience, and His fathomless mercy and perfect justice

If we always love God and desire to do His will, then we will always feel remorse and repent when we commit sin. Maybe that’s what you mean when you say that it is “more valuable” from a salvation standpoint. But if we commit mortal sin, then Confession and Confession alone, save for being able to make an act of perfect contrition, will restore us to His grace and save us from hell. I’d say that’s pretty valuable from a salvation standpoint. It also strengthens you with extra graces not to sin again. You are right, without true contrition, Confession does nothing. Both are necessary. Because of this, I don’t believe you can say that one is “more valuable” than the other, as if these things can be measured and quantified.

Without Confession, serious sins (at least ordinarily) cannot be forgiven, except if one is able to make an act of perfect contrition. Without repentance, one cannot be forgiven of any sin by any means whatsoever, IMO. I should think that most of us are, in fact, not able to make an act of perfect contrition, because we lack sufficient charity (i.e. a profound love for God, and that for His sake and His sake alone). However, God is not bound by the Sacraments. Maybe, doing a bit of speculating, if we die without the benefit of being able to go to confession God would at the point of death give us extra grace to be able to make an act of perfect contrition. However, that is just speculation.

I haven’t gone to confession within the last week. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you went to confession yesterday morning. By this hour, I’m sure we both have sins accumulated and some of them could potentially be mortal. Because a perfect contrition isn’t easy to do, I’d say we’re both in a state of uncertainty. You say that God’s love for us gives you assurance (which I agree with). What did we do/say/think/believe/etc. for God to offer this saving love for us? Or maybe I should ask it this way. At least for yourself, it sounds like you feel that God’s love would save you at this moment if you were to die. Since we know that not everyone is saved, what did you do to set yourself apart? I hope this makes sense.

 

[jmcrae]

I haven’t gone to confession within the last week. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you went to confession yesterday morning. By this hour, I’m sure we both have sins accumulated and some of them could potentially be mortal. Because a perfect contrition isn’t easy to do, I’d say we’re both in a state of uncertainty. You say that God’s love for us gives you assurance (which I agree with). What did we do/say/think/believe/etc. for God to offer this saving love for us? Or maybe I should ask it this way. At least for yourself, it sounds like you feel that God’s love would save you at this moment if you were to die. Since we know that not everyone is saved, what did you do to set yourself apart? I hope this makes sense.

If you were in a state of mortal sin, you would know it.

 

[truthseekerjay]

If you were in a state of mortal sin, you would know it.

I’m not too sure about that. When my sister and I were young, she had a toy with a string that you would pull to make the toy create sounds. Anyway, I remember tricking her into cutting that string. If you asked me at that time if I knew I was committing a mortal sin, I would have said no. I wasn’t “really” violating any of the ten commandments. I also didn’t threaten to hit her if she didn’t cut the string. She chose to cut the string herself. However, when I look back at it, I knew exactly what I was doing and I knew the harm that I would cause. My motivation came from pure evil. I didn’t do it out of revenge. I just really wanted to cause sadness.

I guess you can say that I was young and didn’t know any better. This is somewhat true as far as gravity is concerned, but I definitely knew what I was doing. To be honest, I don’t really think we can excuse a person just because of age. In fact, as an adult, I continue to grow in my walk with Christ, which changes my view of sin. There are sins today that I would know are mortal that I wouldn’t have known to be mortal just two years ago! Come to think of it, why would any reasonable Roman Catholic commit a sin that they knew was mortal? If you use the argument that a person didn’t know how serious the sin was, then mortal sin would practically be nonexistent among average Roman Catholics.

Perhaps you’re thinking that I’m being scrupulous with my sins, but I really don’t think that’s true. I wouldn’t worry if a poor man was given a chicken sandwich on Good Friday and ate it, but I would worry about the situation I will describe. This sin that I committed has a questionable level of gravity. One of my friends, who I have a love-hate-jealousy relationship with, went through a pretty bad experience. Let’s just say it involved hospitalization. Anyway, when people told me about what happened to this friend, I secretly took pleasure in it and even somewhat hoped that the situation wouldn’t end so quick for him. Of course, I thought to myself, “You really don’t mean that.” But you know what, I actually did. This sin revealed to me the level of anger and jealousy in my heart that I actually have for this so called friend of mine. Anyway, if Jesus says that certain forms of anger can be considered murder, can I really be sure that my hoping for the worst for my friend wasn’t a mortal sin?

BTW, these are the types of sins I was talking about in my Saturday-Tuesday scenario that I gave above.

 

[Della]

I’m not too sure about that. When my sister and I were young, she had a toy with a string that you would pull to make the toy create sounds. Anyway, I remember tricking her into cutting that string. If you asked me at that time if I knew I was committing a mortal sin, I would have said no. I wasn’t “really” violating any of the ten commandments. I also didn’t threaten to hit her if she didn’t cut the string. She chose to cut the string herself. However, when I look back at it, I knew exactly what I was doing and I knew the harm that I would cause. My motivation came from pure evil. I didn’t do it out of revenge. I just really wanted to cause sadness.

I guess you can say that I was young and didn’t know any better. This is somewhat true as far as gravity is concerned, but I definitely knew what I was doing. To be honest, I don’t really think we can excuse a person just because of age. In fact, as an adult, I continue to grow in my walk with Christ, which changes my view of sin. There are sins today that I would know are mortal that I wouldn’t have known to be mortal just two years ago! Come to think of it, why would any reasonable Roman Catholic commit a sin that they knew was mortal? If you use the argument that a person didn’t know how serious the sin was, then mortal sin would practically be nonexistent among average Roman Catholics.

Perhaps you’re thinking that I’m being scrupulous with my sins, but I really don’t think that’s true. I wouldn’t worry if a poor man was given a chicken sandwich on Good Friday and ate it, but I would worry about the situation I will describe. This sin that I committed has a questionable level of gravity. One of my friends, who I have a love-hate-jealousy relationship with, went through a pretty bad experience. Let’s just say it involved hospitalization. Anyway, when people told me about what happened to this friend, I secretly took pleasure in it and even somewhat hoped that the situation wouldn’t end so quick for him. Of course, I thought to myself, “You really don’t mean that.” But you know what, I actually did. This sin revealed to me the level of anger and jealousy in my heart that I actually have for this so called friend of mine. Anyway, if Jesus says that certain forms of anger can be considered murder, can I really be sure that my hoping for the worst for my friend wasn’t a mortal sin?

BTW, these are the types of sins I was talking about in my Saturday-Tuesday scenario that I gave above.

What you are really concerned about is culpability–how guilty are you, not if the sin is mortal or not.

A person can commit a mortal sin without being guilty of mortal sin for the reasons you already know. That is the heart of the matter, not if a mortal sin was committed or not.

If you knew it was a mortal sin at the time you committed it you are guilty. If you didn’t know it was a mortal sin you are not guilty of mortal sin, but of venial sin. Knowledge of the sin affects the guilt for the sin.

So, don’t go back over your life from infancy to now trying to determine if you committed a mortal sin or not. At small child can hardly be expected to know if a sin is mortal or not. Indeed, you apparently still don’t know the difference if you think a little child cutting a string to be mean consistutes a mortal sin.

As I wrote before–you are being overly scrupulous. You need to discuss this with your confessor instead of trying to figure it out from responses you will receive here. CAF is not a counselor–it’s a place to discuss and share information. We cannot help you with scrupulosity–you need to talk to your confessor about all this.

 

[truthseekerjay]

If you knew it was a mortal sin at the time you committed it you are guilty. If you didn’t know it was a mortal sin you are not guilty of mortal sin, but of venial sin. Knowledge of the sin affects the guilt for the sin.

With that argument, then I don’t think I’ve ever been guilty of a mortal sin and there’s no real reason (from a salvation standpoint) for me to ever go to confession (again there’s reason from a standpoint of learning more about sin and yourself, but not for salvation). Why would you play with fire knowing that it’s going to burn you?

Indeed, you apparently still don’t know the difference if you think a little child cutting a string to be mean consistutes a mortal sin.

The harm caused by me tricking my sister was definitely insignificant compared to the many evils of this world, but let’s take it up a notch slightly. Let’s say I punched my sister because she kept making fun of me. In this case, you can say that I wanted revenge and perhaps, I wouldn’t even have punched her if she hadn’t made fun of me. Let’s go up a couple more notches. Let’s say one of my coworkers stole my girlfriend and to get even, I tell a lie to my boss to get this coworker fired. Again, you can say that I wanted revenge and that perhaps, none of this would have happened if the girlfriend stealing didn’t occur.

Now, let’s go back to what I did. I tricked my sister for the sole purpose of taking pleasure on inflicting pain on someone else. She didn’t do anything to me. What’s worse is that my parents have always raised us in a loving environment and they always taught me to protect my siblings from others and here I am causing the damage. This action came from my own evil heart without being prompted by a desire for revenge. So yes, no one died and the only thing that resulted was a crying sister. I can hide my heart from humans, but I can’t hide it from God.

 

[truthseekerjay]

BTW Della, what are your thoughts about the second sin that I mentioned (since these are the types of sins I feel that the average Roman Catholic struggles with)? Also, do you feel that you can tell without a doubt if you’ve committed a mortal sin or not?

I also thought of another example. Some people have abortions because they can’t afford to feed more children. Although the decision is unwise, these people were driven to sin out of concern for their other children. Was my sin in tricking my sister to cut the string really better than this?

 

[truthseekerjay]

What I meant to save above was:

Also, do you feel that you can tell without a doubt if you’re guilty of a mortal sin or not?

 

[Della]

With that argument, then I don’t think I’ve ever been guilty of a mortal sin and there’s no real reason (from a salvation standpoint) for me to ever go to confession (again there’s reason from a standpoint of learning more about sin and yourself, but not for salvation). Why would you play with fire knowing that it’s going to burn you?

For the scrupulous it is not good for them to rake up sins and re-examine them again and again. That is what you are doing–it’s counter productive because you will never feel satisfied that you are truly forgiven. It is not playing with fire to accept that your sins don’t rise to the level of mortal sins, confess them and let the priest decide what you’re guilty of, receive absolution and more on. God is not waiting to pounce on us like a cat watching a mouse hole. He has given us reconciliation so we can know we are forgiven. So, when you go believe and understand that confession is beneficial to your soul and healing to the whole body of Christ and be at peace.

The harm caused by me tricking my sister was definitely insignificant compared to the many evils of this world, but let’s take it up a notch slightly. Let’s say I punched my sister because she kept making fun of me. In this case, you can say that I wanted revenge and perhaps, I wouldn’t even have punched her if she hadn’t made fun of me. Let’s go up a couple more notches. Let’s say one of my coworkers stole my girlfriend and to get even, I tell a lie to my boss to get this coworker fired. Again, you can say that I wanted revenge and that perhaps, none of this would have happened if the girlfriend stealing didn’t occur.

Now, let’s go back to what I did. I tricked my sister for the sole purpose of taking pleasure on inflicting pain on someone else. She didn’t do anything to me. What’s worse is that my parents have always raised us in a loving environment and they always taught me to protect my siblings from others and here I am causing the damage. This action came from my own evil heart without being prompted by a desire for revenge. So yes, no one died and the only thing that resulted was a crying sister. I can hide my heart from humans, but I can’t hide it from God.

No, I will not play this game of guessing the consequences for imagined sins and hypothetical situations. This does nothing but keep the cycle of scrupulosity going. Stop doing it. Go to confession, confess your sins, and leave it alone. Stop obsessing over what sins you might commit. It’s like getting married and then worrying about being unfaithful instead of enjoying the delights of marriage. Enjoy being in Christ. Love him and others and be at peace.

 

[truthseekerjay]

God is not waiting to pounce on us like a cat watching a mouse hole.

I agree with that and I’d like to ask you the same question I asked dcana towards the end of this message. As of right now, you didn’t really answer my question of whether we can be sure without a doubt if we’re guilty of a mortal sin or not. Again, if I went to confession yesterday morning, I would have accumulated sins by now (sins similar to the one I mentioned about my friend). I personally don’t feel like I can tell whether any of these sins are venial or mortal, so I don’t know if I’m in a state of grace at this moment in time. If I were to die at this moment, I could potentially be punished for eternity. Should I really go to confession daily?

That doesn’t seem to be the answer and from you response, it sounds like I shouldn’t be thinking of God as someone out to get me. Here’s my question to you. At this moment in time (due to my sins accumulated during the past day and from a salvation standpoint), I’m pretty much in the same boat as a Roman Catholic who hasn’t gone to confession in years and even a Buddhist. Is there really anything that is making me special in God’s eyes compared to the Roman Catholic and the Buddhist that I mention? If there is, what is it? Like I asked dcana, why am I assured of God’s love as opposed to the Roman Catholic and Buddhist that I mention?

 

[Della]

I agree with that and I’d like to ask you the same question I asked dcana towards the end of this message. As of right now, you didn’t really answer my question of whether we can be sure without a doubt if we’re guilty of a mortal sin or not. Again, if I went to confession yesterday morning, I would have accumulated sins by now (sins similar to the one I mentioned about my friend). I personally don’t feel like I can tell whether any of these sins are venial or mortal, so I don’t know if I’m in a state of grace at this moment in time. If I were to die at this moment, I could potentially be punished for eternity. Should I really go to confession daily?

That doesn’t seem to be the answer and from you response, it sounds like I shouldn’t be thinking of God as someone out to get me. Here’s my question to you. At this moment in time (due to my sins accumulated during the past day and from a salvation standpoint), I’m pretty much in the same boat as a Roman Catholic who hasn’t gone to confession in years and even a Buddhist. Is there really anything that is making me special in God’s eyes compared to the Roman Catholic and the Buddhist that I mention? If there is, what is it? Like I asked dcana, why am I assured of God’s love as opposed to the Roman Catholic and Buddhist that I mention?

You can know the difference between mortal and venial sin. The Ten Commandments give them to us. The Church has boiled it down to the Seven Deadly Sins. Read it. If after reading it you are still unsure, talk to your priest about it.

 

[truthseekerjay]

You can know the difference between mortal and venial sin. The Ten Commandments give them to us. The Church has boiled it down to the Seven Deadly Sins. Read it. If after reading it you are still unsure, talk to your priest about it.

Let’s just say that you do know that you committed a mortal sin. At that moment, you are in the same boat as a Buddhist or a Roman Catholic that hasn’t gone to confession in years. Do you drop everything at once to go to confession or should you think that God is not out to get you if you don’t go immediately? If you think the latter, what makes you special in God’s eyes? What is it that’s setting you apart?

 

[wmw]

In many ways all this worry about sin is still being selfish. It’s still all about me. If instead I’m turning my ways to love and think of the effect I have on others rather than just being concerned about a “confessional cleansing” maybe this moment is better with these others. When a normal time for confession is available I plan on and make the effort to go. God knows, “I’m on my way” even if I’m at dinner the day before.

No, I’m not being cavalier with my salvation, I’m trusting God that we have a love relationship and even if I fail in my expressions of love to Him and others we are committed to each other as a bride to her husband rather than like a mechanical effect of water cleaning us off.

A covenant relationship can be broken and it can take the form of “drifting apart”, but it is not a tally of so many sins of any total weight and some last straw will break it. You must really say you want a “divorce”.

 

[Vico]

In many ways all this worry about sin is still being selfish. It’s still all about me. If instead I’m turning my ways to love and think of the effect I have on others rather than just being concerned about a “confessional cleansing” maybe this moment is better with these others. When a normal time for confession is available I plan on and make the effort to go. God knows, “I’m on my way” even if I’m at dinner the day before.

No, I’m not being cavalier with my salvation, I’m trusting God that we have a love relationship and even if I fail in my expressions of love to Him and others we are committed to each other as a bride to her husband rather than like a mechanical effect of water cleaning us off.

A covenant relationship can be broken and it can take the form of “drifting apart”, but it is not a tally of so many sins of any total weight and some last straw will break it. You must really say you want a “divorce”.

The sources of sin are ignorance, passion, and malice. The break in charity with God is the mortal sin. For imputability:“Actual advertence to the sinfulness of the act is not required, virtual advertence suffices. It is not necessary that the explicit intention to offend God and break His law be present, the full and free consent of the will to an evil act suffices.”

O’Neil, A.C. (1912). Sin. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm

 

[truthseekerjay]

No, I’m not being cavalier with my salvation, I’m trusting God that we have a love relationship and even if I fail in my expressions of love to Him and others we are committed to each other as a bride to her husband rather than like a mechanical effect of water cleaning us off.

I don’t disagree with you and I’m going to ask you a question similar to one that I’ve asked others on this thread. How do you know that you’re in a loving relationship with God? Are all Christians in a loving relationship with God or are there some that are lukewarm? How do you know that you’re not in the lukewarm camp?

I don’t think these are selfish questions to ask. What if your children were in the lukewarm camp? Wouldn’t you want to tell them how to get out?

 

[Ignatius]

I don’t think these are selfish questions to ask. What if your children were in the lukewarm camp? Wouldn’t you want to tell them how to get out?

Tell them “Go to confession, confess your sins. Stop obsessing over what sins you might commit. Enjoy being in Christ and if you have questions, ask about them next time you go to confession.”

That’d be my advice for you too.

 

[truthseekerjay]

Tell them “Go to confession, confess your sins. Stop obsessing over what sins you might commit. Enjoy being in Christ and if you have questions, ask about them next time you go to confession.”

That’d be my advice for you too.

But simply going to confession doesn’t answer my question. When I was younger, I had some habitual sins which I would confess, but would engage in again. I was deceiving myself and wasn’t even aware of it. If anyone were to ask me why I didn’t go to confession more often, I would have said that my sins weren’t that serious or that God knows I’m sorry.

Also, as we’ve been discussing on this thread, you can go to confession, but as soon as you sin (which is highly likely due to our imperfect condition), I would say that you are in a questionable state. I don’t know if you can tell 100% of the time if you’re guilty of a mortal sin or not. You may have gone to confession, but at this point, you could be in the same state (from a salvation standpoint) as a Buddhist.

Due to the sins we commit, we should probably go to confession EVERY day. Of course, this is impractical and at least three people on this thread have hinted that “God is not out to get you” and this provides them with some assurance of salvation without having to go to confession daily. I don’t disagree with the people talking about God’s love, but I do want to know how they even know that they have that.

Obviously, there are people who think they follow God, but really don’t. I am a very good example of that during my teens and early twenties. How do you know that you’re in that loving relationship with God that people have mentioned. Obviously, just saying that you’re Christian doesn’t ensure that you have a loving relationship with God. So, how do you know?

 

[Bookcat]

Obviously, there are people who think they follow God, but really don’t.

A person may have an error in their conscience for which they are not yet responsible for.

 

[Bookcat]

Due to the sins we commit, we should probably go to confession EVERY day.

No.

That is why “venial sins” are called “daily sins”.

And such can be repented of and forgiven in many ways (though yes confession of (at least some of) them regularly is very important - see CCC).

Via Faith and Baptism…one can enter a state of salvation.

Can I know that I remain in this state? Do I have “certainty”?

On “a given day” one can have a kind of moral certainty …sure it is not absolute infallible certainty (unless perhaps by a very extraordinary special private revelation from God)…

But as I said one can have moral certainty…a practical certainty…

which is a kind of certitude…a “kind of knowing”

Positive indications can be:

From the orientation of ones heart towards God in love…it is filled with the things of God satisfying my desires…with hope in God…or other ways the “presence of God” is “experienced” in prayer and in various ways…etc (cf Rom 8:16, 2 Cor 13:15)

Or from negative indications: that is not being conscious of any mortal sin…

(obviously we are speaking of a person who has been baptized into Christ)

Remember:

We walk by Faith not by sight (2 Cor 5:7)

(and at times one must walk by a more dark faith…especially during periods of purification or certain periods in the spiritual life)

and are saved in hope (see Romans 8:24)…

We have the “certitude of hope”!

On “a given day” one have a “moral certitude” and one thus lives in Faith and Hope following Jesus of Nazareth in Love…for he indeed is our Hope.

Our hope and trust is in the Lord Jesus Christ! The Good Shepherd! I know him in whom I believe! (II Tm 1: 12).

 

[Bookcat]

The Church has boiled it down to Seven Deadly Sins

. .

I would not say that.

The term “deadly” --often confuses persons.

It an lead some to think deadly sins = only grave matter for grave (mortal) sin.

Many of them are also venial sins (in matter too)…

A better term is “capital sins” (as the CCC uses). They are called Capital cause they are the “head” capitus of many other sins that they engender…(and deadly cause yes the seven can be deadly…)

“They are called “capital” because they engender other sins” (1866)