Challenge met?

[inJESUS]

Indeed it is. But before that you have to prove, when the apocrypha was written.

depends on the apocrypha…third, fourth,fifth century depends

Then you have to prove prophet (pbuh) got it from those apocrypha. Otherwise it is just a possibility.

 

[inJESUS]

What is those writings of disciples’ disciples? How do you prove he was truly a disciples’ disciple? What if he was misunderstood of the events or sayings? Can you give name of any person? If not, it is just as non-saheeh hadees.

how do you prove that x or y is from the sahaba? tradition. Check the Church Fathers. Ignatius of Antioch, fot example, was a church father and was John’s disciple. The disciples left many disciples after them or do you think they died alone?

You are still ignoring the fact that, you don’t know Jesus (pbuh) until he was 30 years of age.

 

[inJESUS]

As soon as i opened your link about miracles, i saw about the pink star. It is already established Khalfan that the pinky colour was added by Nasa to the original picture. In other words, it has nothing to do with the Quranic aya about a pinky colour in the star . This is an example. You can open a thread to discuss further

 

[Khalfan]

As soon as i opened your link about miracles, i saw about the pink star. It is already established Khalfan that the pinky colour was added by Nasa to the original picture. In other words, it has nothing to do with the Quranic aya about a pinky colour in the star . This is an example. You can open a thread to discuss further

Do Quran talk about that pink color? Did I mention that pink color? Then which question you are answering with that pink color? You are trying to color all my questions and evidence for the miracles of Quran by black now.

 

[Khalfan]

how do you prove that x or y is from the sahaba? tradition. Check the Church Fathers. Ignatius of Antioch, fot example, was a church father and was John’s disciple. The disciples left many disciples after them or do you think they died alone?

You never answer the question. WHO WROTE JOHN"S GOSPELS? Hope the question is clear.

we do know some things about his childhood but the gospels are written to preach about Jesus’ salvation and not childhood.

And that is what i said, the writers were not intersted to know Jesus’ (pbuh) life before start preaching. There is no written documents that give any idea of it. Then how you still defend Quran for quoting his childhood events? On what basis? Some assumptions? or the reason that, Quran is to be rejected in all the way, Doesn’t matter what it says?

 

[Khalfan]

depends on the apocrypha…third, fourth,fifth century depends

 

[Khalfan]

I’m sorry but those assertions remain just that - assertions devoid of any scientific scrutiny.

Your choice to reject.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

khalfan:

Who heard it originally from Prophet, then who heard it from whome and chain it gets written is recorded. The life those persons in the chain is verified if they were true and rightuose people. If there is any gape in the chain, like name of a person, words of anyones is not trustworthy, then the hadees will go under non-saheeh.

If we do that same process with books in the Bible, most of it will go under non-saheeh including entire OT and 4 gospels.

This is all a fallacy that Muslims indulge in and we allow them to indulge in.

Bukhari collected his hadiths around 846AD - that’s 2 hundred years after the event. Most of the people listed in the isnad already died long before. It is all hearsay. I hear this person say that person say …

All Bukhari really knew was the last person in the isnad.

Think about it. It’s like your father said your grandfather said your great grandfather said your great-great grandfather said your great-great-great grandfather said your great-great-great-great grandfather said your great-great-great-great grandfather said xxx happened.

All you can be sure of is that your father said this. The rest you really don’t know. But Muslims like to delude themselves nonetheless.

 

[Montalban]

Let’s say I am third party that want to check both Quran and your revelation. I know Arabic and if not, the translations are available in any language to understand the concept/message. Now, since I don’t understand Montalbanese, can you translate it for me? Let me Judge atleast for myself, if you met the challenge to make a like Quran.

No Moslem here has ever accepted that one can judge the ‘greatness’ of the Koranic verse from a translation!

Secondly you judging for yourself is in fact the problem, despite hamba2han’s suggestion that one can prove it objectively.

How did you say, a poem like yours cannot be made? I made it already. Any comment on the beauty of that?

I’ve already pointed out the futility of the ‘challenge’

In Quran, it is not only the arabic or the poetic beauty that makes it special as uncreatable. But the Message in it.

Great! Based on you thinking that it’s beautiful. All the people here disagreeing with you obviously don’t think so. Why are they wrong, and you are right, when judging beauty?

Read the Quran atleast once. Then you will understand what the real challenge is.

You assume I haven’t.

 

[inJESUS]

Do Quran talk about that pink color? Did I mention that pink color? Then which question you are answering with that pink color? You are trying to color all my questions and evidence for the miracles of Quran by black now.

the link you gave lists it as a miracles and gives a quranic aya as a proof. I said it is not. That was just an example of how people can stuff meaning into irrelevant things.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Who heard it originally from Prophet, then who heard it from whome and chain it gets written is recorded. The life those persons in the chain is verified if they were true and rightuose people. If there is any gape in the chain, like name of a person, words of anyones is not trustworthy, then the hadees will go under non-saheeh.

If we do that same process with books in the Bible, most of it will go under non-saheeh including entire OT and 4 gospels.

Thus you admit the hadiths are hearsay.

I think there is more to the scholarship of the NT than you make out.

Khalfan:

So you are an authority for Bible books. Good. Let me ask you few questions.

1. When was the first compiled books ‘bible’ came into existence? Do you have copy of that? How many OT, NT and apocrypha was in it?
2. How do you mesure the divine/spiritual inspiration in any book dated today or 2000 year old?
3. When was Mark 16:9-20 was written sice the scholars of NIV says it is a later addition?
4. How can the date prove the truth of any writing?
5. Who wrote 4 gospels? How do you prove it was Mark, Matthew nd John? Did they give their name in it atleast?

Do you have a problem with reading skills? I am talking of the apocrypha pertaining to Muhammad’s plagiarism - these are all without exception written very late - many centuries after the life of Jesus and hence cannot be true.

 

[inJESUS]

You never answer the question. WHO WROTE JOHN"S GOSPELS? Hope the question is clear.

i never saw this question before. What does it have to do with the topic? John wrote it .

And that is what i said, the writers were not intersted to know Jesus’ (pbuh) life before start preaching. There is no written documents that give any idea of it. Then how you still defend Quran for quoting his childhood events? On what basis? Some assumptions? or the reason that, Quran is to be rejected in all the way, Doesn’t matter what it says?

 

[Booklover]

umm…if those are the ‘facts’ on which the validity of the Quran as a divine revelation stand or fall, then such an assertion is in serious trouble. I can’t speak for all of the examples, but take the embryonic development assertion for instance. Is this meant to be a sincere attempt? The verse is at best a vague allusion, and the chewed gum example is desperate.

I love the one about the fly. It’s hilarious!

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

scholars determine their age based on the church fathers who talked about them, or their content, or their stylistic features ecc.

There 6636 verses in the Quran, and you got only 5 to prove, it was copied? I would go for the majority. If the majority is proven uncreated by men, then those 5 verse too be included in that, since the probablity for possibility of copying is 50/50. I will go for the positive.

lol.Who said that one has to copy 50/50 in order for it to be called forgery? if you remove the apocrypha and the legends from the Quran, and if you remove the OT and it’s Talmudic interpretation by Jewish rabbis from the Quran, you will be left with Muhammad’s wars and sexual priviledges. Nothing in the Quran is genuine except his sexual priviledges and war. Everything else is traced to either OT or apocrypha or legends. My approach is the opposite, if 5 whole passages (that i remember) are men-made, all of it is man-made.

My dear, what if I say, those apocrypha was fabricated to disprove Quran as copying?

lol. These apocrypha were written before Muhammad was even born.

You are yet to prove any apocrypha is believable.

if it is believable, it wouldn’t be apocrypha.

Thanks. Don’t run becasue of pink color.

open a link. You\ll realize how most of what the link cites are written about before Muhamad .

because Muhammad had to tell you this since previous scriptures obviously do not mention him or his coming as they did with Jesus. All cult leaders do this. True prophets NEVER denied but confirmed previous scriptures.

According to Bible. Quoting Bible to prove Bible!!

well even quoting the Bible proves that dozens of prophets never denied but confirmed previous scriptures; why?because they were true prophets, not cult leaders who reject what God says to promote their teachings. Your reply gives the impression that the Bible is wrong becaus it says prophets do not reject scriptures! as if a true prophet, according to you, is someone who rejects God’s word.

You are not sure of apocrypha. Obviously, you don’t know the source of Quran too

. But there is no better way than reading it once. when many of the sources are apocrypha and legends, i don’t care about the rest.

 

[Booklover]

scholars determine their age based on the church fathers who talked about them, or their content, or their stylistic features ecc.

lol.Who said that one has to copy 50/50 in order for it to be called forgery? if you remove the apocrypha and the legends from the Quran, and if you remove the OT and it’s Talmudic interpretation by Jewish rabbis from the Quran, you will be left with Muhammad’s wars and sexual priviledges. Nothing in the Quran is genuine except his sexual priviledges and war. Everything else is traced to either OT or apocrypha or legends. My approach is the opposite, if 5 whole passages (that i remember) are men-made, all of it is man-made.

lol. These apocrypha were written before Muhammad was even born.

if it is believable, it wouldn’t be apocrypha.

open a link. You\ll realize how most of what the link cites are written about before Muhamad .

well even quoting the Bible proves that dozens of prophets never denied but confirmed previous scriptures; why?because they were true prophets, not cult leaders who reject what God says to promote their teachings. Your reply gives the impression that the Bible is wrong becaus it says prophets do not reject scriptures! as if a true prophet, according to you, is someone who rejects God’s word.

when many of the sources are apocrypha and legends, i don’t care about the rest.

Excellent post InJesus, as always!

Vickie

 

[Khalfan]

This is all a fallacy that Muslims indulge in and we allow them to indulge in.

Bukhari collected his hadiths around 846AD - that’s 2 hundred years after the event. Most of the people listed in the isnad already died long before. It is all hearsay. I hear this person say that person say …

All Bukhari really knew was the last person in the isnad.

Think about it. It’s like your father said your grandfather said your great grandfather said your great-great grandfather said your great-great-great grandfather said your great-great-great-great grandfather said your great-great-great-great grandfather said xxx happened.

All you can be sure of is that your father said this. The rest you really don’t know. But Muslims like to delude themselves nonetheless.

You commented it based on the asuumption that Bukhari (r) wrote it based on hearsay information. But he was not. He collected it from the records of those Sahabas and Thabies. If he was assuming the hearsay persons, there wouldn’t be any Non-Saheeh Hadees. You better do a study on non-Saheeh Hadees, then you will understand what is Saheeh Hadees better.

 

[Khalfan]

No Moslem here has ever accepted that one can judge the ‘greatness’ of the Koranic verse from a translation!

But the translation can convay the message. May be not 100 % accurate. Let’s check waht does your poem say. And let me help to learn Montalbanis language. So I can get into the ‘real beauty’ of your poem.

Secondly you judging for yourself is in fact the problem, despite hamba2han’s suggestion that one can prove it objectively.

Lets talk about my suggestion.

I’ve already pointed out the futility of the ‘challenge’

Points are not proved. So that we are discussing.

Great! Based on you thinking that it’s beautiful. All the people here disagreeing with you obviously don’t think so. Why are they wrong, and you are right, when judging beauty?

How many Authorised Arabic Litrature Scholars are here in this thread?

You assume I haven’t.

I really do.

 

[Khalfan]

the link you gave lists it as a miracles and gives a quranic aya as a proof. I said it is not. That was just an example of how people can stuff meaning into irrelevant things.

No problem. You can accept or reject the signs.

 

[Khalfan]

Thus you admit the hadiths are hearsay.

You better learn about Non- Saheeh Hadees.

I think there is more to the scholarship of the NT than you make out.

Yaa… Thats why you don’t know the names of the writers even.

Do you have a problem with reading skills? I am talking of the apocrypha pertaining to Muhammad’s plagiarism - these are all without exception written very late - many centuries after the life of Jesus and hence cannot be true.

Wait… You said, I have to accept what ever you say, for the reason ‘I said it’.

I do. I have done a research on the relevant apocrypha and they are all without exception written at the earliest in the third century.

You are supposed to be an authority for apocrypha (atleast) then.

Tell me how was these veified, those appocrypha were written before Mohamed; name of the person who wrote those apocrypha books; exact time of the writing.

I removed the questions regarding NT and OT.

1. When was the first compiled books ‘bible’ came into existence? Do you have copy of that? How many apocrypha was in it how many is it today?
2. How do you mesure the divine/spiritual inspiration in any book dated today or 2000 year old?
3. How can the date prove the truth of any writing?

 

[Khalfan]

i never saw this question before. What does it have to do with the topic? John wrote it .