Challenge - The Golden Chain of Salvation

[Linkowski]

Challenge to all Catholics

This thread is designed to follow the Golden Chain of Salvation…what is that you might ask…Rom 8:29-30.

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

We obviously have to start with election/predestination. What is the basis for the election of the saints? I will start us off with this…

2Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,…16 So then it **does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, *but on God ***who has mercy.

So…election is God’s gracious choice…according to His own purpose and grace…not based on anything that we do or choose. Is that what you see from these scriptures?

May the Lord Bless…

 

[mikeledes]

Challenge to all Catholics

This thread is designed to follow the Golden Chain of Salvation…what is that you might ask…Rom 8:29-30.

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

We obviously have to start with election/predestination. What is the basis for the election of the saints? I will start us off with this…

2Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,…16 So then it **does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, *but on God ***who has mercy.

So…election is God’s gracious choice…according to His own purpose and grace…not based on anything that we do or choose. Is that what you see from these scriptures?

May the Lord Bless…

The “Golden Chain” applies to the elect. No real challenge to Catholic soteriology.

thesumma.info/predestination/predestination4.php

God Bless,
Michael

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Michael_Howard]

Challenge to all Catholics

This thread is designed to follow the Golden Chain of Salvation…what is that you might ask…Rom 8:29-30.

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

We obviously have to start with election/predestination. What is the basis for the election of the saints? I will start us off with this…

2Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,…16 So then it **does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, *but on God ***who has mercy.

So…election is God’s gracious choice…according to His own purpose and grace…not based on anything that we do or choose. Is that what you see from these scriptures?

May the Lord Bless…

Now, what you want to do is go back and read Romans chapter 8 through chapter 11 for the full context of what St.Paul is trying to get at concerning the ‘elect’. Just a hint: St. Paul tells us who the elect are in chapter 11.

Take special not of 11:20, St. Paul warns the gentiles not to become arrogent, but to be afraid. This warning is often ignored by the OSAS folks. Paul is stressing the point not to become arrogent of your position, which hearkens back to, “*work out your salvation with fear and trembling’” for if God did not spare the natural branches, will he spare us if we become concieted and lofty in our thinking concerning salvation? *

 

[mikeledes]

Here is another link on the Catholic Church’s view on predestination:

thecatholicfaith.com/Teachings/predestination.htm

God bless,
Michael

 

[Linkowski]

Now, what you want to do is go back and read Romans chapter 8 through chapter 11 for the full context of what St.Paul is trying to get at concerning the ‘elect’. Just a hint: St. Paul tells us who the elect are in chapter 11.

Take special not of 11:20, St. Paul warns the gentiles not to become arrogent, but to be afraid. This warning is often ignored by the OSAS folks. Paul is stressing the point not to become arrogent of your position, which hearkens back to, “*work out your salvation with fear and trembling’” for if God did not spare the natural branches, will he spare us if we become concieted and lofty in our thinking concerning salvation? *

Please - I am asking for the basis of our election…what is the basis for God’s choice of the elect? I will not allow us to be sidetracked. Review my posting again, please.

 

[VociMike]

Does God create some people for the purpose of sending them to hell?

 

[mikeledes]

All of the elect are guaranteed salvation. They will all die in a state of grace. The difference between Calvinism and Catholicism is that we believe God does not limit His offer of justifying grace to the elect. A genuine offer is one that can be accepted and this cannot occur without prevenient grace. The elect are not the only ones that are called:

Matthew 20:16 (KJV)

16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Titus 2:11

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

1 Timothy 2:3-4

3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ezekiel 18:23

23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

John 3:16-17

16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

John 1:9

**9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. **

There will be those among the reprobate who will be enlightened and accept, by God’s grace, the grace of justification. These, however, will not persevere to the end and will thus ultimately fall away. If anyone does not persevere to the end, they were not of the elect:

Ezekiel 3:20-21

**20"Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
21"However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself." **

Even the elect can turn away from God, but God will ensure that they will die in a state of grace, and hence it will be a temporary state:

1 Kings 11:1-10

**1But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:
2Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father. 7Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded. **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Please - I am asking for the basis of our election…what is the basis for God’s choice of the elect? I will not allow us to be sidetracked. Review my posting again, please.

If you read the first link I gave you, you’ll get your answer.

God bless,
Michael

 

[NotWorthy]

Please - I am asking for the basis of our election…what is the basis for God’s choice of the elect? I will not allow us to be sidetracked. Review my posting again, please.

The quick answer is:

Every human being cooperates in God’s plan through his free will to accept or reject God’s planned destiny of his individual soul. However, since God is all-knowing and is not bound by time or space, He does know which choice each of us will make. Paul is affirming this fore-knowledge of God in Romans 8:29-30. Paul does not mean, nor does Catholic teaching hold that predestination by God denies human free will.

To further expand on it:

Sacred Scripture clearly teaches that it is God’s desire that everyone come to salvation. If this is indeed God’s desire then He would not predestine anyone to damnation:

1 Timothy 2:1-4: “I urge then, first of all that petitions, prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving should be offered for everyone, for kings and others in authority, so that we may be able to live peaceful and quiet lives with all devotion and propriety. To do this is right, and acceptable to God our Savior: he wants everyone to be saved and reach full knowledge of the truth.”

It was God’s plan from the time of the fall of Adam that the Christ’s death would be for all humanity—not for a predestined group. Jesus was sent to be Savior of the world!

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 - For the love of Christ impels us, once we have come to the conviction that one died for all; therefore, all have died. He indeed died for all, so that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 5:15-18 - But the gift is not like the transgression. For if by that one person’s transgression the many died, how much more did the grace of God and the gracious gift of the one person Jesus Christ overflow for the many. And the gift is not like the result of the one person’s sinning. For after one sin there was the judgment that brought condemnation; but the gift, after many transgressions, brought acquittal. For if, by the transgression of one person, death came to reign through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ. In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all.

Jesus the New Adam died for the sins of humanity: just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Jesus’ death was the perfect sacrifice—for all humanity and for all time.

But because Jesus is God He knows the mind and heart of all people, therefore, He knows who will respond in faith to His universal call to salvation: “…but Jesus knew all people and did not trust himself to them; he never needed evidence about anyone; he could tell what someone had in him.”

I’m sorry. I forgot to mention that I got this off of AgapeBibleStudy.com.

 

[Linkowski]

So our election depends on man? Is that the answer that I am getting? Sorry, but I am going to ignore all of the “noise” I will call it to get the answers to my questions. We will get to some of these things later. So…it depends on man who gets chosen.

Yes or no? Simply answer one or the other.

May God Be With Us…

 

[Catholic_Dude]

So our election depends on man? Is that the answer that I am getting? Sorry, but I am going to ignore all of the “noise” I will call it to get the answers to my questions. We will get to some of these things later. So…it depends on man who gets chosen.

Yes or no? Simply answer one or the other.

May God Be With Us…

It depends on the RESPONSE of man, as the context says:
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

 

[mikeledes]

The elect have not earned their election. Their vocation to salvation is an act of God’s grace.

However, God does not predestine any of the reprobate without reference to their sins. Otherwise, God would first have to decree their damnation and then positively decree their sins. That would make God the cause of sin and that contradicts the Bible:

James 1:13-15

**13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. **

An all-holy righteous God can never be the cause or author of sin.

Moreover, if there is no free will involved in God’s plan of salavtion, then He is directly responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve. He created them in holiness and then decreed that they would sin, thus making Him the author of sin in the world?

God’s plan of salvation/election inlcludes the free will of man, but election does not originate in the will of man. It originates in the Sovereign Will of God and thus he always has the inititiave in our salvation.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

So our election depends on man? Is that the answer that I am getting? Sorry, but I am going to ignore all of the “noise” I will call it to get the answers to my questions. We will get to some of these things later. So…it depends on man who gets chosen.

Yes or no? Simply answer one or the other.

May God Be With Us…

You obviously did not read the links I gave you. I also suggest that all Catholics read these links before answering the question posted in this thread.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Linkowski]

I believe I am hearing that election depends upon God and God alone…not on the choice of man? Are we all in agreement?

Some Help…

Not only this, God makes clear in Romans 9 that election/predestination/His foreknowing is NOT dependent on the will of man or the works of man…but on HIM…who calls. The following are excerpts out of Romans 9…

Ro 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,…15 For He says to Moses, “**I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy…**18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

You say - how can they be accountable then???

God has the answer for you already pre-written before the world began…

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

BTW - Man took care of sin…God allowed it.

 

[mikeledes]

Here is a quote from one of the links I provided (the first one)

A second difficulty of this problem is that it is no longer a question of the two groups of human beings, the elect and those not among the elect, but of individuals. The question is this. Why has God placed in the number of the elect this person and not that other? Why has He chosen Peter rather than Judas, and not vice versa? Seemingly unjust is this unequal distribution of such gifts to human beings who are equal both by nature and by reason of original sin.

This is the difficulty that St. Paul expresses when he writes: “What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? God forbid. For He saith to Moses: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. And I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy.” St. Paul thus answers the difficulty by affirming the principle of predilection, or of the gratuity of grace to which we can have no claim. Further on he states: “O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are His judgments, and how unsearchable His ways!” St. Augustine expresses the mystery in these words: “Why He draweth one and not another, seek not to judge if thou dost not wish to err.”

St. Thomas called special attention to these two great difficulties in the mystery of predestination; one difficulty is general in scope, the other of particular interest. He says: “The reason for the predestination of some, and the reprobation of others, must be sought for in the goodness of God. . . . God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, in sparing them; and in respect of others, whom He reprobates, by means of His justice in punishing them. . . . Yet why He chooses some for glory and reprobates others, has no reason except the divine will. . . . Neither on this account can there be said to be injustice in God, if He prepares unequal lots for not unequal things. . . . In things which are given gratuitously a person can give more or less, just as he pleases (provided he deprives nobody of his due), without any infringement of justice.”

The answers given by St. Paul, St. Augustine and St. Thomas show there is no contradiction. But underlying these two aspects there is an inscrutable mystery because it is essentially supernatural and also because the divine intervention is supremely free. This mystery is supernatural not only modally like a miracle that can be known by natural means, but it is supernatural because by its very nature it belongs to that class of mysteries which concerns the intimate life of God, such as the Trinity, and it thus transcends the natural powers of every intellect whether human or angelic, of every created and creatable intellect. Moreover, in this mystery there is the intervention of God’s supremely free good pleasure, the divinum beneplacitum which St. Paul speaks of. This good pleasure, which is not at all a caprice - for it is the very essence of wisdom and holiness - is for us, as everything is which concerns God’s sovereign liberty, a profound mystery. By this good pleasure God mercifully grants His grace to one of the two thieves crucified with the Savior, whereas in justice He permits the other to resist to the very end, and so lets him remain in sin.

Hence we see in this mystery an intervention of infinite mercy and justice and of sovereign liberty, all of which absolutely transcend the powers of every created and creatable intellect. St. Thomas calls attention to this obscurity, which comes either from the essentially supernatural nature of the object, or from the fact that the truth pertains to the contingent order and as yet is undetermined. He says that there are things far removed from our knowledge, either spatially or because of their supernatural transcendence, such as the mystery of the Trinity, which is absolutely determined and knowable in itself, but not to us. Then there are things which, since they are not of themselves determined, are not knowable in themselves, such as future contingent things, the truth of which can be determined and known by God in His supremely free decree.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

BTW - Man took care of sin…God allowed it.

But if God does not incorporate free will in His plan of salvation, then He is directly reponsible for sin. In order for God’s decree to save the elect and the damn the reprobate to be executed, one important event had to occur, namely, the Fall of Man. If God decreed the salvation of the elect and the damnation of the reprobate without reference to any future even or foreseen sin especially the fall - which at this point is a future event - then he must have directly caused the fall in order for his plan to be accomplished. Man had to fall into sin in order to make it possible to damn the reprobate and save the elect. So that would make Him directly responsible for the sin of Adam. Now if God allowed or *permitted * Adam to sin, then Adam must have had free will.

God bless,
Michael

BTW, I will not be online during the weekend.

Michael

 

[Linkowski]

I have to get going and will take a peek later. We may have to tackle foreknowledge by the look of some of the postings. Foreknowledge is not God seeing down the corridor of time and choosing who chooses Him; planning according to man’s choices…I can explain that in great detail later.

 

[Michael_Howard]

Please - I am asking for the basis of our election…what is the basis for God’s choice of the elect? I will not allow us to be sidetracked. Review my posting again, please.

Please review your origanal post like I asked and tackle Romans 8-11 in CONTEXT. To whom is Paul speaking of when he speaks of the elect?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

(dont read the following quotes in detail, just skim over them to get the general idea )
Post 14:

I believe I am hearing that election depends upon God and God alone…not on the choice of man? Are we all in agreement?

Some Help…

Not only this, God makes clear in Romans 9 that election/predestination/His foreknowing is NOT dependent on the will of man or the works of man…but on HIM…who calls. The following are excerpts out of Romans 9…

Ro 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,…15 For He says to Moses, “**I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy…**18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

You say - how can they be accountable then???

God has the answer for you already pre-written before the world began…

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

BTW - Man took care of sin…God allowed it.

Post 13

You obviously did not read the links I gave you. I also suggest that all Catholics read these links before answering the question posted in this thread.

God Bless,
Michael

(Great links by the way…Link should read the Links)

 

[utunumsint]

So…election is God’s gracious choice…according to His own purpose and grace…not based on anything that we do or choose. Is that what you see from these scriptures?

How do you explain Ephesians 5:5,15-16 ?

5 Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God…Watch carefully then how you live, not as foolish persons but as wise, making the most of the opportunity, because the days are evil.

If our election has nothing to do with our actions, then why are the immoral and impure and greedy without inheritance? He seems to be talking to believers in this passage.

Ut