Challenge - The Golden Chain of Salvation

  • Thread starter Thread starter Linkowski
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Linkowski said:
Challenge to all Catholics

This thread is designed to follow the Golden Chain of Salvation…what is that you might ask…Rom 8:29-30.

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

We obviously have to start with election/predestination. What is the basis for the election of the saints? I will start us off with this…

2Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,…16 So then it **does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, *but on God ***who has mercy.

So…election is God’s gracious choice…according to His own purpose and grace…not based on anything that we do or choose. Is that what you see from these scriptures?
Click to expand...

Definitely 😃 - without prejudice to the teaching of the CC.​

May the Lord Bless…
Click to expand...

As a Catholic, I believe all of that 😃 - & agree heartily with all of it.​

Those of us who incline to St. Thomas or St. Augustine are more likely to do so than those who are Molinists; though Molinism as a scheme for thinking about
understanding of these issues is fully permitted in the CC (regrettably, IMO - but there we are).

As for TULIP, I’m a four-a-half-pointer (which is more than Amyraldus was :)); & I think I accept all five “Solas” 🙂 : I can’t off-hand think of any that formally deny Catholic teaching; though all are capable of being explained in a way that does formally deny it. A wide variety of theological (& other) emphases is possible within Catholicism, so what one can accommodate, another may not be able to or care to. ##
 
Just trying to establish this point…election has nothing to do with what man does…no one has given good reason not to believe this. Foreknowledge…let’s look at it from this angle…

Christ foreknown
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Is this to mean that God knew ahead of time what Jesus would do in the future and then planned it that way? This would be a gross misinterpretation of what foreknowledge is in this case… Another place to see this is 1 Peter Chapter 1…

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are **chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God **the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Later in the chapter we find…
1Pe 1:20 For **He was foreknown **before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you…

Foreknowledge is not what many portray it to be…

The greek word…proginosko
  • to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:–foreknow (ordain), know (before).
To “KNOW”…what is this saying…
Mt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

This “knowing” is an intimate knowing and not simply a knowing of facts or a knowing of/about…the word “know” is used this way many times in the scriptures.

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He KNEW us…foreloved us - foreordained a relationship with us by His own choice and purpose - this choice has NOTHING to do what what we would do or choose. That leads us into the next section of this response.
 
Angle 2

Is His choosing fair?

If your use of the word foreknowledge is correct - and you say God chooses who chooses Him down the road in time, then it is based on our choosing, correct? Sounds “fair”…right? At least to fallen humanity it does. But, in Romans 9, Paul has to make a statement that does not fall in line with that train of thought…he says…

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

Why does he have to say that after explaining that God chose one over the other if it was because of something Esau did?? Think on that.
 
Linkowski said:
Angle 2

Is His choosing fair?

If your use of the word foreknowledge is correct - and you say God chooses who chooses Him down the road in time, then it is based on our choosing, correct? Sounds “fair”…right? At least to fallen humanity it does. But, in Romans 9, Paul has to make a statement that does not fall in line with that train of thought…he says…

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

Why does he have to say that after explaining that God chose one over the other if it was because of something Esau did?? Think on that.
Click to expand...
St. Paul is contrasting Israel in the flesh and spiritual Israel comparing them to Jacob and Esau. This election Paul speaks of is the elect of Israel. God forknew those Israelites who would not fall into unbelief and set aside a remnant chosen soley by grace so that the mystery of the ingrafting of the gentiles could come to fulfillment.
 
Michael_Howard said:
St. Paul is contrasting Israel in the flesh and spiritual Israel comparing them to Jacob and Esau. This election Paul speaks of is the elect of Israel. God forknew those Israelites who would not fall into unbelief and set aside a remnant chosen soley by grace so that the mystery of the ingrafting of the gentiles could come to fulfillment.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily…later in Romans 24 - vessels of mercy are of either…

Romans 9:23-24 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Also…the church is looked upon as the elect…we are called to make certain of our calling and election. We also see scriptures like this one…

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; **and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

I am going to go off on a different direction now…
 
This is something that was posted by “mikeledes” - this is interesting. Does everyone agree with this?
  1. God knows all things, including those who will be saved (THE ELECT). 2. God’s foreknowledge does not destroy, but includes, free will. 3. God desires all men to be saved. 4. Jesus died to redeem all men. 5. God provides sufficient grace for all men to be saved. 6. Man, in the exercise of his free will, can accept or reject grace. 7. Those who accept grace are saved, or born-again. 8. Those who are born-again can fall away or fall into sin. 9. Not everyone who is saved will persevere in grace. 10. Those who do persevere are God’s elect. 11. Those who do not persevere, or who never accepted grace, are the reprobate. 12. Since we can always reject God in this life, we have no absolute assurance that we will persevere. 13. We can have a moral assurance of salvation if we maintain faith and keep God’s commandments (1 John 2:1-6; 3:19-23; 5:1-3,13).
Ultimately - what I am interested in is that we are saying here that a person, not of the elect, can be saved (but they WILL fall away). The question I have - if someone is not of the elect can be saved…are there some non-elect out there that are saved…justified and being sanctified??? If that is the case, there are scriptures that contradict this thought. I will take it one by one…

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are (being) sanctified.

Let us discuss this and the context.
 
  1. Those who accept grace are saved, or born-again. 8. Those who are born-again can fall away or fall into sin. 9. Not everyone who is saved will persevere in grace
    This is correct. God wishes all of us to be saved. Some will accept this gift, and will be born-again and saved. Some of those will lose this salvation, and some of those will maintain it. But we are all pre-destined to be with God in His Glory. We are just not forced into it. Nor are we prevented from taking part in His Glory, none of us are prevented.
Click to expand...
 
NotWorthy said:
This is correct. God wishes all of us to be saved. Some will accept this gift, and will be born-again and saved. Some of those will lose this salvation, and some of those will maintain it. But we are all pre-destined to be with God in His Glory. We are just not forced into it. Nor are we prevented from taking part in His Glory, none of us are prevented.
Click to expand...
Please answer the problem above…you did not tackle that.

Those who are being sanctified have been perfected forever according to Hebrews 10:14…this same idea is given to us in John 13:8-10…

John 13:8-10 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

The Bible says…once clean - always clean. And, certainly, for the elect…Once Saved Always Saved.
 
Linkowski said:
Please answer the problem above…you did not tackle that.

Those who are being sanctified have been perfected forever according to Hebrews 10:14…this same idea is given to us in John 13:8-10…

John 13:8-10 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

The Bible says…once clean - always clean. And, certainly, for the elect…Once Saved Always Saved.
Click to expand...
Ah, so when we use Scripture such as this to prove OSAS, we’re allowed to ignore other Scripture that shows you must strive to maintain your “cleanliness”?
John 15:
*** I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.****** 6 Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. 7 ****** If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you***.
Click to expand...
 
First of all - once the elect get saved…they are saved forever. OSAS is true. Not only is the end of their salvation foreordained but the means is as well…

Here is what must be done and I have said this before. You have your favorite passages (typcially warning passages of some sort) that you make inferences from…then I have my passages that I typically bring up that indicate - once saved always saved…for instance on my end…

Heb 3:14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Heb 10:14 For by one offering **he hath perfected for ever **them that are being sanctified.
Jer 32:40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

Our sets of passages must be married! They are not contradictory but complementary! The illustration that I have given you is Acts 27 and it is very good…

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship.

God is sovereign and has foreordained this “salvation” to occur (physcial saving of life - not the saving of the soul). This is the type of scripture that I like to bring up…

Ro 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Ro 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Usually, we get accused of antinomianism at this point which is why I changed churches…this accusation amounts to, “So, does that mean everyone just sits back enjoy this salvation and do nothing - sin all we want, and let grace abound???” Tying true salvation in with this passage, we answer “No”, look what then happens in this particular situation in Acts 27.

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

If God’s decree is to come to fulfillment,** the means by which it comes to pass must also take place **and has been foreordained by God…He said - DON’T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. These are your favorite passages come in…

Revelation 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Hebrews 10:35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
Heb 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.

And the like…

These basically say…YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are of the elect WILL. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world.

God not only commands obedience but He gives it…in like manner, over and over in scripture…the command comes that we must love - BUT THEN IT SAYS - you WILL…“you must persevere!!!”…and then it says, “YOU WILL”…you must hate sin…and then it says “YOU WILL”…He gives what he commands…this falls in line with what he says here…

Ezekiel 36:26-27 KJV 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, **which God hath before ordained **that we should walk in them.
 
Linkowski said:
A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship.

God is sovereign and has foreordained this “salvation” to occur (physcial saving of life - not the saving of the soul). This is the type of scripture that I like to bring up…

…Usually, we get accused of antinomianism at this point which is why I changed churches…this accusation amounts to, “So, does that mean everyone just sits back enjoy this salvation and do nothing - sin all we want, and let grace abound???” Tying true salvation in with this passage, we answer “No”, look what then happens in this particular situation in Acts 27.

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.
Click to expand...
Link, alas you’ve lost me with this post, but I certainly hope the belief in this Scripture is not what caused you to change churches.

Good Luck!
 
NotWorthy said:
Link, alas you’ve lost me with this post, but I certainly hope the belief in this Scripture is not what caused you to change churches.

Good Luck!
Click to expand...
The idea is this…when God says something will happen…he has to cause it to happen, right? Think of how Joseph and Mary had to make their way to Bethlehem. This is what happened on the boat they were on in Acts 27. He ordained that they would all survive the storm AND ordained that those sailors be on the ship to carry out the salvation of those on the boat.

And, for the elect, those who he has chosen by his soveriegn grace…he has ordained the salvation of those and also…has to have ordained the means of their salvation as well…their faith…their perseverance, etc.
They were chosen as it is called out in Romans 9…by His own purpose and grace…
 
Linkowski said:
Angle 2

Is His choosing fair?
Click to expand...

Absolutely not 😃​

If your use of the word foreknowledge is correct - and you say God chooses who chooses Him down the road in time, then it is based on our choosing, correct? Sounds “fair”…right? At least to fallen humanity it does. But, in Romans 9, Paul has to make a statement that does not fall in line with that train of thought…he says…

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

Why does he have to say that after explaining that God chose one over the other if it was because of something Esau did?? Think on that.
Click to expand...

Fairness is not the issue. There is nothing whatever “fair” in having mercy, forgiving sinners, or the like. People never complain that they have been shown mercy - yet God’s mercy is as “unreasonable”, as “unfair”, as impenetrable, as any of His decrees.​

Besides, what sort of twisted thinking makes men think that:
  • limited
  • creatures
  • who sin
  • often
  • & are weakened by all manner of spiritual
  • & intellectual infirmities
  • & are surrounded by countless distractions
    could understand God’s ways ? How can it make sense for us to try to judge them ? God is God, He is not man.
The Bible is perfectly clear:
  • that “His ways are unsearchable” (Rom. 11.33-36)
  • “[His] judgements are a great deep”
  • that no one “has ever been His councillor”
  • that “we know but the outskirts of His ways”
  • that “He does whatsoever pleases Him in heaven and earth”
    What it doesn’t give us is any impertinent & irreverent picking of God’s brains: He is an absolute ruler, Whom nothing can resist; He is not a constitutional monarch, but the totalitarian & absolute Sovereign Lord, Whom nothing can escape, in heaven, or on earth, or under the earth, or in all creation. 🙂
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

Absolutely not 😃 ## Fairness is not the issue. There is nothing whatever “fair” in having mercy, forgiving sinners, or the like. People never complain that they have been shown mercy - yet God’s mercy is as “unreasonable”, as “unfair”, as impenetrable, as any of His decrees.​

Besides, what sort of twisted thinking makes men think that:
  • limited
  • creatures
  • who sin
  • often
  • & are weakened by all manner of spiritual
  • & intellectual infirmities
  • & are surrounded by countless distractions
    could understand God’s ways ? How can it make sense for us to try to judge them ? God is God, He is not man.
The Bible is perfectly clear:
  • that “His ways are unsearchable” (Rom. 11.33-36)
  • “[His] judgements are a great deep”
  • that no one “has ever been His councillor”
  • that “we know but the outskirts of His ways”
  • that “He does whatsoever pleases Him in heaven and earth”
    What it doesn’t give us is any impertinent & irreverent picking of God’s brains: He is an absolute ruler, Whom nothing can resist; He is not a constitutional monarch, but the totalitarian & absolute Sovereign Lord, Whom nothing can escape, in heaven, or on earth, or under the earth, or in all creation. 🙂
Click to expand...
Since when are “fairness” and “justice” so much different? He asks - is God not fair/just? God forbid. Why - because God just got done choosing one over the other without giving one or the other the chance to outperform or outwill eachtother.
 
I think there is confusion concerning foreknowledge…

Just trying to establish this point…election has nothing to do with what man does…no one has given good reason not to believe this. Foreknowledge…let’s look at it from this angle…

Christ foreknown
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Is this to mean that God knew ahead of time what Jesus would do in the future and then planned it that way? This would be a gross misinterpretation of what foreknowledge is in this case… Another place to see this is 1 Peter Chapter 1…

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are **chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God **the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Later in the chapter we find…
1Pe 1:20 For **He was foreknown **before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you…

Foreknowledge is not what many portray it to be…

The greek word…proginosko
  • to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:–foreknow (ordain), know (before).
To “KNOW”…what is this saying…
Mt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

This “knowing” is an intimate knowing and not simply a knowing of facts or a knowing of/about…the word “know” is used this way many times in the scriptures.

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He KNEW us…foreloved us - foreordained a relationship with us by His own choice and purpose - this choice has NOTHING to do what what we would do or choose. That leads us into the next section of this response.
 
Not only this, God makes clear in Romans 9 that election/predestination/His foreknowing is NOT dependent on the will of man or the works of man…but on HIM…who calls. The following are excerpts out of Romans 9…

Ro 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,…15 For He says to Moses, “**I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy…**18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

You say - how can they be accountable then???

God has the answer for you already pre-written before the world began…

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

There is absolutely no boasting for the elect…even faith comes by grace…

Acts 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had** believed through grace:**
 
Linkowski said:
The idea is this…when God says something will happen…he has to cause it to happen, right? Think of how Joseph and Mary had to make their way to Bethlehem. This is what happened on the boat they were on in Acts 27. He ordained that they would all survive the storm AND ordained that those sailors be on the ship to carry out the salvation of those on the boat.

And, for the elect, those who he has chosen by his soveriegn grace…he has ordained the salvation of those and also…has to have ordained the means of their salvation as well…their faith…their perseverance, etc.
They were chosen as it is called out in Romans 9…by His own purpose and grace…
Click to expand...
Hmmm… Strange. I seem to remember at least two distinct times when God had said something will happen and He was persuaded not to let it happen. He didn’t have to cause it to happen.
 
PinoyCatholic said:
Hmmm… Strange. I seem to remember at least two distinct times when God had said something will happen and He was persuaded not to let it happen. He didn’t have to cause it to happen.
Click to expand...
I guess you need to be more specific.
 
OneForTruth said:
I guess you need to be more specific.
Click to expand...
God told Moses He was going to destroy Israel for the “Calf-Gate” incident. Moses interceded on behalf of Israel, asking God to take Moses’ life in exchange for Israel’s.

God relented. Later on, I believe it was after the 12 spies went into Israel for 40 days and 10 convinced Israel not to invade the Promised Land, God again said that He will destroy Israel. Moses interceded again on their behalf.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top