Challenge - The Golden Chain of Salvation

[mikeledes]

In Sandusky’s defense, I feel he was on this thread for a rather long time. He deserves kudos for sticking with it so long.

I don’t agree with his reasoning, mind you, but I do admire his patience and all that.

I’ll give him credit for that. I was surprised he lasted this long! I’m still going to post because I still have something to say on this topic. I’m disappointed that he did not address the other questions I asked that were directly related to this subject. We got bogged down in the “all men” thing. Hopefully, he will rejoin or someone else will continue where he left off.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Romans 9:18

18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Whenever TULIP is questioned, Calvinists immediately turn to this verse in order to defend God’s right to “harden” or pass over the non-elect. While no one is questioning that God has a right to harden, I feel as if the Calvinists have walked into the middle of a conversation and have lost the nuances of that conversation. When we look at the general context of Romans, however, we realize that God is actually affirming His FREEDOM and Right to BE MERCIFUL. There were Jews claiming that, as the chosen people of God, they had an exclusive right to God’s mercy. The intent of Paul’s letter is to assert that being an “Israelite” is not the product of birth or observance of the Mosaic law.

Romans 2:28

28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Also read Romans 9:6-8. This is the immediate context of Romans 9:18. Moreover, when God hardens (i.e. allows a person to remain in the state of unbelief they have chosen), the intent is to expand the scope of His mercy. Why did God “harden” Pharoah’s heart?

Romans 9:17

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

Why was there a partial hardening in Israel?

Romans 11:32

**32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. **

The end of hardening is to expand God’s mercy. So we see, once again, that the main purpose of Romans 9:18 is not to assert His right to harden and damn, but to assert His sovereign freedom and right to be merciful. This is a response to those Jews who claimed that only the Jewish people had a right to God’s mercy and that the only way Gentiles could obtain this right was by being circumcised and obeying the Mosaic Law, thus becoming a member of the Jewish people. Romans 9:18 is remarkably similar to a parable of Jesus found in Matthew 20:1-15, especially verse 15.

**1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2"When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3"And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place;
4and to those he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ And so they went.
5"Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing.
6"And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’
7"They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’
8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.’
9"When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius.
10"When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius.
11"When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner,
12saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’
13"But he answered and said to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14’Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
15’Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’ **

The Jews resented that God was granting the same mercy to the Gentiles that he gave the Jews without requring that they be circumcised or observe the Mosaic Law. Wasn’t the Law given to the Jewish people? Isn’t the Jewish people the chosen people of God? Then why does He give these “johnny come lately” Gentiles what should properly belong to the Jews who are the natural descendants of Abraham and faithfully observe the Mosaic Law? God answers, “Is it not lawful for me do do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I AM GENEROUS.” Another way of putting is Romans 9:18. So it amazes me how Calvinists frequently use Romans 9:18 to defend God’s right to restrict His mercy when the intent is really to assert God’s freedom to be generous with His mercy.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Pax]

I have to hand it to all of you guys. I’ve discussed the issues of justification/salvation, faith, and OSAS over the course of many threads. I personally have grown a bit weary of it, and did not post to this thread all that much because of it. Both sides presented their case very well. All we can do is hope that those that have read what has been presented have done so with an open mind and heart.

 

[Pax]

Michael,

You have made many good posts on this thread. I personally found you last one to be very helpful and instructive. The linkage you made here is one that has never occurred to me.

Thanks.

 

[mikeledes]

In this thread, John 12:37-40 was brought up as evidence against the idea that God gives prevenient grace to the reprobate. However, there is another variant of the passage from Isaiah in question quoted in Matthew 13:14-15 that sheds light on what that passage actually means. Here is that passage within its context:

**10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’ **

In this variant, the “blindness” is clearly shown to be a result of a choice (i.e. “they closed their eyes”) of the unbelieving Pharisees and it also clearly hints that if they would have opened their eyes, God would have healed them. The point is this. The “blindness” in John 12 does not mean that prior to being “blinded”, God did not give them a genuine opportunity to repent by giving them prevenient/“drawing” grace. This prior illumination came through the Law and the Prophets and John the Baptist. Regarding John the Baptist, the Bible says:

John 1:6-7

**6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. **

While many came to believe through John the Baptist, the Pharisess and the lawyers refused to believe in John. As a result, God abandoned them to their unbelief (i.e. blinded them) and ceased calling them. Let’s take a look at Matthew 21:28-30

32"For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.

Now compare that with Luke 7:29-30:

29When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Those that accepted the illumination/call that came through John the Baptist received further illumination, while those who rejected John remained in their state of unbelief. That is why Jesus states in Matthew 13:12, prior to quoting the same passage in Isaiah quoted in John 12:

**12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. **

This is Jesus’s explanation why the Father granted the mysteries of the kingdom to them and not to those outside. Those that believed the testimony of the Law and the Prophets and John the Baptist came to believe in Jesus and thus received more in the form of knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God. Those that rejected the testimony of John (i.e. “does not have”), what they did have was taken away. And what did they have?

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Continuation…

So what did the Pharisees have that was taken away? They had God’s constant call/invitation to enter the kingdom of God. In other words, a genuine opportunity to repent. There are several passaged in the Gospels that point to this truth:

Matthew 22:2-9

**2"The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son.
3"And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.
4"Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ 5"But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business,
6and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them.
7"But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.
8"Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. **

Another variant of this parable found in Luke 14:16-24 ends the following way:

**24’For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste of my dinner.’" **

God gave the unbelieving Pharisees and other Jews more than one opportunity to repent and accept His invitation to salvation. They chose to reject. God, therefore, abandoned them to their unbelief and was no longer inviting them. They would not “taste of my dinner.” That’s why when Jesus finally manifested Himself to them, they did not believe and they could not because they no longer had an opportunity to believe since God was no longer calling them. Another parable vividly demonstrates this:

Matthew 21:33-40

**33"Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey.
34"When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce.
35"The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third.
36"Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them.
37"But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
38"But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’
39"They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40"Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?" **

The unbelieving Pharisees and scribes realized this parable was about them (v.45). Jesus also said to them in verse 43:

**43"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. **

To those who have (i.e. faith), more will be given. To those who do not have (i.e. unbelieving), even what he has will be taken away. The invitation to repent and enter the kingdom of God (i.e. through Moses, the prophets, and finally John the Baptist) was now taken away from the Pharisees. Hence they could not come to faith, fulfilling Isaiah’s prophecy and explaining what John 12:38-40 actually means. God had ceased drawing them.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Pax]

Amen Mike!

 

[mikeledes]

In the Book of Ezekiel, the phrase “He shall surely live” is used to express Divine approval. It is either used as an divine affirmation/confirmation of someone being rigteous before God.

Ezekiel 18:5-9

** 5"But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period–
7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, (does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully–he is righteous** and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD.

Or it is used as a declaration of forgiveness:

Ezekiel 18:21

21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

God will never give His approval to a person who has not repentant of his wickedness or is not genuinely righteous before His sight. And that person is righteous because God made him righteous. Therefore, when we have a verse like;

Ezekiel 33:13

13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.

Note that the sin happens after God has given the righteous person His approval (“he shall surely live”), which is only given to those who are genuinely righteous or to a repentant sinner. Therefore, the subject in Ezekiel 33:13 is a genuinely righteous person before God’s sight. This person took for granted this divine approval and figured that his righteous acts would be enough to cover his future sins. Wrong! This verse is also remarkably similar to:

1 Corinthians 10:12

**12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. **

And also Romans 11:20-22

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

The righteous of the Old and New Testaments became righteous the same way. There is no difference, as demonstrated by Hebrews 11. The fact that this person dies in his sin (i.e. but in that iniquity of his which he has commited he will die), means that he did not persevere to the end. And yet he was genuinely justified? But the elect are supposed to persevere to the end. The fact that he did not persevere to the end demonstrates that he was of the reporbate. The fact that he has divine approval and was called righteous by God shows that he was justified.

God Bless,
Michael

Ezekiel 3:20-21

**20 “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul.” **

These passages clearly contradict the perseverance of the saints. If all the righteous are members of the elect, and perseverance to the end is a sign of elecrion, then how can a righteous person fail to persevere by dying in a state of rebellion against God?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

The word “choose” inherently means the possibility of selecting one thing over another, as illustrated by the following passage:

Deuteronomy 30:19

19"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, "

Isaiah 1:18-20

**18"Come now, and let us reason together,"
Says the LORD,
"Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool.
19"If you consent and obey,
You will eat the best of the land;
20"But if you refuse and rebel,
You will be devoured by the sword "
Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken. **

If one does not have the ability to select one thing over another, then there is no real choice. If grace is irresistable, than sin and concupisence is also irresistible in the case of someone who is in the flesh. Then there is no choice involved either in the case of grace or sin. And if sin is irresistible, God’s call to the reprobate to repent cannot be sincere if he does not provide prevenient grace that enables them to choose grace over sin or to chose sin over grace. How can God desire the wicked to repent if He witholds the only means of potentially accomplishing that act, His grace? I just want to share another verse.

Proverbs 1:20-26

20Wisdom shouts in the street,
She lifts her voice in the square;
21At the head of the noisy streets she cries out;
At the entrance of the gates in the city she utters her sayings:
22"How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded?
And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing
And fools hate knowledge?
23"Turn to my reproof,
Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24"Because I called and you refused,
I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
25And you neglected all my counsel
And did not want my reproof;
26I will also laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your dread comes,
27When your dread comes like a storm
And your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
28"Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently but they will not find me,
29Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I originally posted this in the Golden Chain thread, but since the “hardening” issue continues to resurface, I decided to repost it here:

John 12:37-40 has been brought up as evidence against the idea that God gives prevenient grace to the reprobate. However, there is another variant of the passage from Isaiah in question quoted in Matthew 13:14-15 that sheds light on what that passage actually means. Here is that passage within its context:

**10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’ **

In this variant, the “blindness” is clearly shown to be a result of a choice (i.e. “they closed their eyes”) of the unbelieving Pharisees and it also clearly hints that if they would have opened their eyes, God would have healed them. The point is this. The “blindness” in John 12 does not mean that prior to being “blinded”, God did not give them a genuine opportunity to repent by giving them prevenient/“drawing” grace. This prior illumination came through the Law and the Prophets and John the Baptist. Regarding John the Baptist, the Bible says:

John 1:6-7

**6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. **

While many came to believe through John the Baptist, the Pharisess and the lawyers refused to believe in John. As a result, God abandoned them to their unbelief (i.e. blinded them) and ceased calling them. Let’s take a look at Matthew 21:28-30

32"For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.

Now compare that with Luke 7:29-30:

29When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Those that accepted the illumination/call that came through John the Baptist received further illumination, while those who rejected John remained in their state of unbelief. That is why Jesus states in Matthew 13:12, prior to quoting the same passage in Isaiah quoted in John 12:

**12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. **

This is Jesus’s explanation why the Father granted the mysteries of the kingdom to them and not to those outside. Those that believed the testimony of the Law and the Prophets and John the Baptist came to believe in Jesus and thus received more in the form of knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God. Those that rejected the testimony of John (i.e. “does not have”), what they did have was taken away. And what did they have?

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael