Challenge - The Golden Chain of Salvation

[mikeledes]

I’ve asked you many, many questions concerning your assertions, and, my many, many questions you have ignored—not very convincing.

Can you please point out these many questions left unanswered? I have several questions directly related to the subject of this thread that you have left unanswered.

The questions that I’ve asked you regarding the assertions you’ve made throughout this thread are difficult questions to answer; if you can’t answer the questions I’ve asked, I can only conclude that you really don’t know why you believe what you believe, you just believe what you do—no questions asked.

Wishful thinking. Too bad it doesn’t reflect reality.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Regarding those among the reprobate that are genuinely justified but fall away, I addressed that in the following thread. I have more to say on the subject, but I’m short on time:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=163236&page=11

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

In the Book of Ezekiel, the phrase “He shall surely live” is used to express Divine approval. It is either used as an divine affirmation/confirmation of someone being rigteous before God.

Ezekiel 18:5-9

** 5"But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period–
7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, (does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully–he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD. **

Or it is used as a declaration of forgiveness:

Ezekiel 18:21

**21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. **

God will never give His approval to a person who has not repentant of his wickedness or is not genuinely righteous before His sight. And that person is righteous because God made him righteous. Therefore, when we have a verse like;

Ezekiel 33:13

**13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. **

Note that the sin happens after God has given the righteous person His approval (“he shall surely live”), which is only given to those who are genuinely righteous or to a repentant sinner. Therefore, the subject in Ezekiel 33:13 is a genuinely righteous person before God’s sight. This person took for granted this divine approval and figured that his righteous acts would be enough to cover his future sins. Wrong! This verse is also remarkably similar to:

1 Corinthians 10:12

**12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. **

And also Romans 11:20-22

**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **

The righteous of the Old and New Testaments became righteous the same way. There is no difference, as demonstrated by Hebrews 11. The fact that this person dies in his sin (i.e. but in that iniquity of his which he has commited he will die), means that he did not persevere to the end. And yet he was genuinely justified? But the elect are supposed to persevere to the end. The fact that he did not persevere to the end demonstrates that he was of the reporbate. The fact that he has divine approval and was called righteous by God shows that he was justified.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

And I’ve shown you a number of verses where the exact phrase “all men” is used and it is always used to mean "mankind’, not just the elect. The truth, Sandunksy, is that you have not shown a single verse where “all men” is exclsuively used to refer to the elect. I, on the other hand, have given you several verses where “all men” is clearly used to refer to both the elect and the reprobate. When you have a verse that says God is the Savior of all men, especially believers, you know that “all men” must include the reprobate. Otherwise, it would simply say “God is the Savior of Believers.” If I were to say “I love to talk to Protestants, especially Calvinists.” Am I saying that only Calvinists are Protestants? Or am I saying that I only love to talk to Calvinists? Obviously not! You, however, chose to defy the express meaning of the words and then accuse me of being a word twister.

Mike, I’ve been tracking this conversation very carefully; the issue is not does “all men,” pas mean only the elect. As I’m certain I stated earlier in the thread, pas means either “all men without exception,” or “all men without distinction.” The context determines how pas should be understood. Look in a lexicon; I’m not going to argue with a lexicon.**Romans 12:18

If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

Titus 3:2

to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.**All men without exception—yes?

Also, in my post immediately prior to this one, I referred you to my post #221; in that post I showed that the only ones coming to Christ are those given to Him by the Father; and the only reason they come is because the Father draws them, and Christ raises them up on the last day—that directly bears on Jn 12:32—if those in the two chapters, (Jn 6 & 12), are not the elect only, then who are they?

The discussion with respect to “all men” is with reference to those drawn to Christ. The Father and the Son are unified in the outworking of Salvation (cf Jn 10:22ff particularly the concluding verse 30). If the only ones drawn to Christ are drawn by the Father (Jn 6), and those are the elect, then those would be the same who are drawn by His being “lifted up.” (It is the Father who lifted Him up—Acts 2:22-24; 3:18; 4:24-28). Therefore, in Jn 12:32, “all men” is without distinction: nation, people, tribe, tongue; all men in that verse is not “all men without exception,” as I demonstrated in the context of the passage with respect to the blinding of the Jews; and not all of the Jews, God saved a remant, the elect, within the Jews (Rom 11:4).

mikeledes:

Time and time again, the Bible uses “all men” to refer to all mankind or the world, not just the elect. And yet you keep insisting that “all men” in John 12 can only refer to the elect, despite the fact that the Bible does not use “all men” as the equivalent of “elect”.

See above (you’re not tracking).

mikeledes:

Interesting. Let’s take a look at:

Romans 14:15, 20

15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.

Compare that with 1 Corinthians 8:9-10

9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

The work of God destroyed? A brother for whom Christ dies perishing?

I see, “perishing” means loss of salvation (cf Jn 10:28). I’m not even going to bother Mike; but the context is the eating of food; you believe one can lose his salvation on the basis of the eating of food—what great faith.

(continued)

 

[sandusky]

(continued from post #303)

mikeledes:

Also, we must read that verse in Philippians within its context:

Why does Paul think that the God will complete His work in the Phillipians? Because he is infallibly certain that they are predestined to glory? That’s not the reason he gives. He says that he thinks this of the Phillipians because he has them in his heart. He is expressing a personal thought rooted in his love for the Phillipians. He is not making a universal statement about all Christians.

Correct, Mike; Paul’s statement is not a universal statement about Christians; Paul’s statement is an eternal truth about the faithfulness of God to the elect, and His work of justification begun in them—God is the one who justifies the elect only, Mike (Rom 8:33); and He completes the work.

I’ve consistently supported what I’ve said with Scripture; God elects some to salvation because if He didn’t, none would be saved; He does this to make known the riches of His glory to the vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory (Rom 8:30; 9:22-23).

If there is a group of “justified reprobate,” I would like to know that; but I find no evidence of such a group.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus chose Judas and Judas fell away. What’s so hard to understand about that concept?

The perseverance of the elect is a no brainer.

The only thing that would take any less brains is to Presume that one is of the Elect and not “Work out their salvation with fear and trembling” as Paul Inerrantly commanded inspired by the Holy Spirit Himself.

For those that don’t have brains enough to understand it–the Holy Spirit is more authoratative in what He commands than what John Calvin Thinks the Holy Spirit commands!

 

[sandusky]

Jesus chose Judas and Judas fell away. What’s so hard to understand about that concept?

Good to see that you’re still not letting the facts get in the way, Jerry**John 17:12

“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Psalm 109:8

Let his days be few; Let another take his office.

Psalm 41:9

Even my close friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me.

John 13:18

“I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’

1 Peter 2:7-8

7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone,”
8 and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.**Judas was not “elect” to salvation, Jerry, but he was “elect” to perdition (cf Jn 6:70). :doh2:

And woe to him for doing God’s will (Lk 22:22).

Jerry-Jet:

The perseverance of the elect is a no brainer.

Jerry-Jet:

The only thing that would take any less brains is to Presume that one is of the Elect and not “Work out their salvation with fear and trembling” as Paul Inerrantly commanded inspired by the Holy Spirit Himself.

You are consistent Jerry—you don’t let the facts get in the way of a “brainless” straw man—every good Biblicist understands the necessity of working, and persevering to the end
(cf Mt 10:22).

Jerry-Jet:

For those that don’t have brains enough to understand it–the Holy Spirit is more authoratative in what He commands than what John Calvin Thinks the Holy Spirit commands!

So true

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God, which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

III. This infallible assurance does not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties, before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto.** And therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.**What one man scorns as presumption, another man embraces as faith—faith in
the living God. :extrahappy:

 

[onenow1]

:coffeeread: Hi, Sandy, PREDESTINATION: Catholic referance. net:Catholic Dictionary
In the widest sense it is every eternal decision of God; in a narrower sense it is the supernatural final destination of rational creatures; and in the strictest sense it is God’s eternal decision to assume certain rational creatures into heavenly glory. Predestination implies an act of the divine intellect and of the divine will. The first is foreknowledge, the second is predestination.

According to its efficacy in time, predestination is distinguished as incomplete or complete depending on whether it is to grace only or also to glory. Complete predestination is the divine preparation of grace in the present life and of glory in the life to come.

This doctrine is proposed by the ordinary and universal teaching of the Church as a truth of revelation. The reality of predestination is clearly attested by St. Paul: “They are the ones he chose especially long ago and intended to become true images of the Son, so that his Son, might be the eldest of many brothers. He called those he intended for this; those he called he justified and with those he justified he shared his glory.” (Romans 8:29-30). All elements of complete predestination are given: the activity of God’s mind and will, and the principal stages of its realization in time.

The main difficulty in the doctrine of predestination is whether God’s eternal decision has been taken with or without consideration of human freedom. Catholic teaching holds that predestination by God does not deny the human free will. Numerous theories have been offered on how to reconcile the two, but all admit with St. Paul (Romans 11:33) that predestination is an unfathomable mystery. (Etym. Latin praedestinatio, a determining beforehand.)

Quote=OneNow1:
Sandy, I believe Judas was one of the elect, that was lost to the ways of the world Satan. ]

Comment: Sheep to the right goats to the left, the Lord even gives a reason why the goats are going down. I would suggest that is the reason the Lord told the Apostles to go out and preach to the world, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Preaching and those that believe the word the seal of baptism.

Remember the parable of the sower !

Peace, OneNow1

 

[Pax]

Sandusky,

None of the verses you quoted state that Judas was “elect” to perdition.

Judas was given every conceiveable spiritual gift and was hand picked as one of the twelve. Judas is an example of a “believer” that perished. Judas is never referred to as a pseudo believer or someone that lacks root. Judas is described as a traitor. This is very important. He believed in Jesus and he betrayed his Lord and Savior.

Please note that at the marriage feast of Cana Jesus worked his first miracle and scripture tells us that His disciples believed in Him[John 2:11]. Clearly, Judas had faith. Jesus picked the twelve apostles and in Matthew 10:1 it says that Jesus, “….called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.” Even Judas was given the authority over unclean spirits and the power of healing. Judas was a believer. According to scripture there is only one time that Judas did not believe Jesus. In John Chapter 6:64 Judas is pointed out as one of those that did not believe Jesus when He promised to give us His precious body and blood to have as true food and true drink. Many others did not believe what Jesus said in the Discourse on the Bread of Life and they left him.

Today non-Catholic Christians also reject the words of Jesus from John 6 and do not believe that Jesus would give us His flesh and blood as true food and true drink. Does this mean that they do not have a true faith? If not, then Judas was just as much a believer as any one else. One thing we do know for sure is that Judas was a traitor.

You claim that God predestined Judas to do this terrible deed. You are wrong. God cannot do an evil act, and it is for this reason that double predestination is heresy. Judas is described as the son of perdition because he is so intimately involved with the company of Satan at the time of the betrayal. I will explain something profound to you concerning the proper understanding of the “vessels of wrath.” It is true that the betrayal played out as determined by God, but this merely means that God allowed the betrayal to occur at the hands of Judas rather than some other way.

You claim that God predestined Judas to do this terrible deed. You are wrong. God cannot do an evil act, and it is for this reason that double predestination is heresy. Judas is described as the son of perdition because he is so intimately involved with the company of Satan at the time of the betrayal. I will explain something profound to you concerning the proper understanding of the “vessels of wrath.” It is true that the betrayal played out as determined by God, but this merely means that God allowed the betrayal to occur at the hands of Judas rather than some other way. Jesus could have been arrested and crucified with or without Judas.

God determined, out of all of the “if-then” possibilities, that Judas would be the instrument. This is by God’s will but it does not mean that God predestined Judas to be evil, to do evil, and to be condemned to hell. God does not make people evil and He does not make them do evil things. God is not evil and He cannot do anything that is evil. God does not predestine anyone to hell. The behavior of the damned and their rejection of God is their own doing. They reject grace. Grace is given to everyone because God desires that all men be saved. When grace falls upon some hearts they are hardened. This is clearly demonstrated in the book of Exodus. The people of God are lifted up by the power God displayed before Pharaoh. God says that He will harden Pharaoh’s heart and Pharaoh’s heart becomes hardened by the same miracles that give glory to God and hope to His people. In some passages of Exodus it says that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart while in others it says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. When grace falls upon Paul the scales fall from his eyes and he serves God; when grace falls upon Judas he reacts differently. We have free will and we do what we want to do. God’s grace enables us and lifts us. He gives sufficient grace to all men, but not all men will accept it. Look at all that Jesus gave to Judas, but Judas betrayed him. The choices Judas made were his own. The Father did not make Judas betray Jesus. Grace can be compared to sunlight. When the sun shines on wet clay, the clay hardens and cracks. When the sun falls upon wax, it melts. Pharaoh’s heart is like the clay. Obviously, we cannot pretend to understand the mind of God and scripture cautions us in this regard. We do know, however, that God only works for good and can never do anything evil. Predestination to hell is something only an evil god would do.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Anyone who claims that the people talked about in Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-32 are not believers who lose their salvation would be the same kind of liar that would say that James 2:24 means the exact opposite of what it says.

Nothing is more pathetic than anyone who will toss out some truths that the bible teaches because they simply just don’t want to believe those truths!

Real consistency is believing all the truths of the bible.

No Calvinist has ever done that!

Just believe hat you want to believe the Calvinists say to themselves.

Calvin didn’t listen to the church–he invented his own.

He and his followers should be treated as the publicans and sinners that they are–because they don’t listen to the church and because that’s how Jesus said that people should not listen to the church should be treated!

 

[tabcom]

Anyone who claims that the people talked about in Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-32 are not believers who lose their salvation . . .

**I’ve read this statement several times now. I still don’t understand what you are saying
**

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Try reading the verses and then explain to anyone how anyone can partake that much in the gifts of God without being saved!

There is no way to do that without being saved andHhebrews states that these people do fall away.

What so hard to understand about that?

 

[mikeledes]

(continued from post #303)

Correct, Mike; Paul’s statement is not a universal statement about Christians; Paul’s statement is an eternal truth about the faithfulness of God to the elect, and His work of justification begun in them—God is the one who justifies the elect only, Mike (Rom 8:33); and He completes the work.

I’ve consistently supported what I’ve said with Scripture; God elects some to salvation because if He didn’t, none would be saved; He does this to make known the riches of His glory to the vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory (Rom 8:30; 9:22-23).

If there is a group of “justified reprobate,” I would like to know that; but I find no evidence of such a group.

You have not addressed the verses I presented talking about “destroying the work of God”.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I see, “perishing” means loss of salvation (cf Jn 10:28). I’m not even going to bother Mike; but the context is the eating of food; you believe one can lose his salvation on the basis of the eating of food—what great faith.

(continued)

The context is food and the issue is sin (i.e. stumble, stumbling blocks). How does one “destroy the work of God”, Sandunsky? What does it mean that the weaker brother perish if it does not mean loss of salvation? There is another passage in the Bible that talks about those who are stumbling blocks and those who stumble:

Mark 9:42-50

**42"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.
43"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
44where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45"If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into (hell,
46]where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
47"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
48where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.
49"For everyone will be salted with fire.
50"Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another." **

Jesus is giving this warning to the “salt of the earth”, his disciples. How does “salt” loses its flavor? The context clearly inidcates that salt loses its flavor through sin. What happens to salt that loses its flavor?

Matthew 5:13

**13"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men. **

The “trampling” is an image of eternal damnation which we vividly see in Mark 9:43-48. Therefore, the “perishing” and “destruction” Paul has in view is eternal damnation. In fact, “perish” and “destruction” are used as synonyms for eternal damnation.

God Bless,
Michael

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Good to see that you’re still not letting the facts get in the way, JerryJohn 17:12

“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Psalm 109:8

Let his days be few; Let another take his office.

Psalm 41:9

Even my close friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me.

John 13:18

“I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’

1 Peter 2:7-8

7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone,”
8 and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.Judas was not “elect” to salvation, Jerry, but he was “elect” to perdition (cf Jn 6:70). :doh2:

And woe to him for doing God’s will (Lk 22:22).



You are consistent Jerry—you don’t let the facts get in the way of a “brainless” straw man—every good Biblicist understands the necessity of working, and persevering to the end
(cf Mt 10:22).

So true

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God, which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

III. This infallible assurance does not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties, before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto.** And therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.**What one man scorns as presumption, another man embraces as faith—faith in
the living God. :extrahappy:

In order to accomplish this eternal decree, did God cause Judas to sin?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Mike, I’ve been tracking this conversation very carefully; the issue is not does “all men,” pas mean only the elect. As I’m certain I stated earlier in the thread, pas means either “all men without exception,” or “all men without distinction.” …

So does the “all men” in John 12 mean “elect and reprobate” or just “elect.” I say the former and you say the latter. I will discuss the “blindness” verses later. The fact that they were “blinded” by God does not mean God did not give them a genuine opportunity to repent or illuminate them (i.e. though the Law and the Prophets and through John the Baptist) prior (to abandoning them to their unbelief. When Jesus finally manifested himself to them, they could not come because God was no longer calling them. I’ll discuss that later. I want to make certain points:

1) God loves the world/mankind

John 3:16

**16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. **

Titus 3:4

4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,

1. God does not desire the death of the wicked, but that they repent and live. His command to repent is universal, without exception.

1 Timothy 2:3-4

3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ezekiel 18:23

**23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? **

Matthew 23:37

37"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

3) Jesus/God is the Savior of all men, without exception.]

1 Timothy 4:10

10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1 John 4:14

14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

4) Christ died for all men, without exeption.

1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours i.e. believers] only, but also for those of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9

9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

2 Peter 2:1

1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

5) Jesus will enlighten EVERY man

John 1:9

9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

The fact that God loves mankind, that He does not desire the death of the wicked but their repentance, that He is the Savior of all men and Jesus dies for all, and that He enlightens every man cast doubt on the notion that “all men” in John 12 refers to only the elect.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

The fact that God loves mankind, that He does not desire the death of the wicked but their repentance, that He is the Savior of all men and Jesus dies for all, and that He enlightens every man cast doubt on the notion that “all men” in John 12 refers to only the elect.

That’s a fitting conclusion to thread for me, Mike. Thanks; it’s been interesting. :tiphat:

 

[mikeledes]

That’s a fitting conclusion to thread for me, Mike. Thanks; it’s been interesting. :tiphat:

I knew this would happen sooner or later. It always ends that way with you. I will continue to post in this thread because I have to properly respond to your other objections. I hope you at least take the time to read it. You left unanswered questions.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I knew this would happen sooner or later. It always ends that way with you. I will continue to post in this thread because I have to properly respond to your other objections. I hope you at least take the time to read it. You left unanswered questions.

God Bless,
Michael

You made to many good points to be able to contend with.

The seed of Truth was planted.

 

[NotWorthy]

I knew this would happen sooner or later. It always ends that way with you. I will continue to post in this thread because I have to properly respond to your other objections. I hope you at least take the time to read it. You left unanswered questions.

God Bless,
Michael

In Sandusky’s defense, I feel he was on this thread for a rather long time. He deserves kudos for sticking with it so long.

I don’t agree with his reasoning, mind you, but I do admire his patience and all that.