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NotWorthy
Guest
Actually, Sandy, I began this little “tete-a-tete” with this statement. I was asking it of anyone who agreed with the Golden Chain of Election.
Your response ultimately led to my confusion, for I falsely assumed you were offering up a response from the “Elect-Committee”.
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mikeledes
Guest
For anyone who is interested, I posted some links on predestination - some of which I have posted earlier in this thread - in the “if the elect are saved…” thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=160930&page=8
They are available for all to read. Catholics need to understand the Catholic view of predestination before engaging in any dialogue with Calvinists. Otherwise, we will only have unnecessary debates and more confusion.
God Bless,
Michael
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=160930&page=8
They are available for all to read. Catholics need to understand the Catholic view of predestination before engaging in any dialogue with Calvinists. Otherwise, we will only have unnecessary debates and more confusion.
God Bless,
Michael
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sandusky
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There may still be some confusion.
If by “Elect-Committee,” you mean those who believe in election/predestination, I do. My response to your question has nothing to do with election/predestination, but it has everything to do with what Paul is saying in the passages cited—Paul’s desire, and prayer for the salvation of the Jews, in spite his great theological acumen, was because he loved them.
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NotWorthy
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Ahhhhh, NOW I understand.There may still be some confusion.
If by “Elect-Committee,” you mean those who believe in election/predestination, I do. My response to your question has nothing to do with election/predestination, but it has everything to do with what Paul is saying in the passages cited—Paul’s desire, and prayer for the salvation of the Jews, in spite his great theological acumen, was because he loved them.
Catholics can pray for the dead souls in Purgatory because we love them, and that’s wrong, WRONG, I TELL YOU!!!
But Paul can pray for Jews, even if they are not of the elect, because he loves them, and it’s OK.
That’s more like the Sandusky that we’ve grown to love!!!
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sandusky
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I see; as long as you were under the impression that I did not subscribe to election/predestination, my understanding of the passage, which you described as “seemingly Catholic,” was wonderful.
But, now that I have cleared up the misunderstanding of your impression, and have stated that I do believe in election/predestination, my understanding of the passage although unchanged, is now tainted—pray for the dead, NotWorthy, what is that to me—[Sigh……]?
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NotWorthy
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Sandusky, I’ve been familiar with your theology. That’s why I was confused by your post.
When I saw, “Paul prayed for Israel because he loved them”, I interpreted you to say, "Well, his prayers are for Israel because people aren’t subject to “election”. Hence, as I claimed, I was confused, for what I thought you were saying was not in alignment to what I’ve seen you post in the past.
Hence,
The confusion was because I jumped to the conclusion that if you pray for someone, you are doing it because you are praying in the hopes of helping them. But election would over-ride this.
In the past I’ve seen people chastise Catholics for praying for the souls of the dead (knowing that Catholics pray for those that they loved in this life). The claim was, why pray for them, you can’t help them.
Now, Paul prays for Israel, even though they may or may not be numbered among the elect, because he loves them. His prayers can’t help them, for their election or lack of election determines their salvation, but it’s still a good thing because Paul loves them.
I smell double standard!!!
But, I still love you, Sandusky!!!
We may disagree, but you are always honest and consistent.
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Linkowski
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Here is one question that might get things rolling in another direction…can the non-elect be “saved”?? Mikeledes and I have had discussion on this outside the forum. It is my understanding that his belief (and, I believe the CC’s) is that the non-elect can be “saved” but they will not persevere because they are not of the elect. I think this would be interesting dialogue. It certainly caused me to think…I will post some of my response to Mike on this later when I have time…hi-ho hi-ho - off to work I go.
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utunumsint
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IMHO, it seems to me that this is a negative way of saying that God does not owe anyone salvation. If he wants to withold the grace of final perseverance, that is up to him. He does not owe us anything in a strict *quid pro quo *way. It is a Gift from first to last.
The being said, we also believe in a God who is loving and merciful, therefore I cannot believe he would do this wihout good reason, or arbitrarily. It may seem unreasonable and arbitrary from a human perspective, but that is just another reminder of the sovereignty and transcendence of God. So, although we cannot have an absolute knowledge of our election, we can be reasonably sure of it if.
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NotWorthy
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God wishes all to be saved. Jesus died for all of us.
To consider that there are some who are born that have no possible means of getting to heaven is outside my capability of reasoning.
To consider that there are some who are born that have no possible means of getting to heaven is outside my capability of reasoning.
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utunumsint
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I agree.
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NotWorthy
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How would the song go?
“Jesus loves the little children… Except you… and you and you and you”.
“Jesus loves the little children… Except you… and you and you and you”.
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Philthy
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So am I, thank God! I was under the impression that you subscribed to that “fatalist interpretation” - I think we are getting closer to understanding one another…
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Philthy
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Im glad to see that you agree that it is confusing!LOL.
Well, Phil, and NotWorthy, tell me then, what is Paul’s desire, and his prayer for the salvation
of the Jews about, if not his love for them?
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Philthy
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Philthy
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Im not sure what his desire is, but if his “love of Israel” supercedes his love of God and God’s sovereignty then it is not a holy desire. My understanding of your presentation of Paul’s comments is that despite being given special, personal revelation of God’s Will regarding predestination, not only does Paul lament the reality as it applies to Israel, but he actually PRAYS FOR Israel to be saved DESPITE that knowledge. That would be praying for something you know God has not willed! To me it seems that he should have included the same caveat that Christ did when He prayed for the “cup to pass”…“Not my will, but thy will be done”. Absent that caveat, Paul’s prayers for Israel seem…inappropriate.LOL.
Well, Phil, and NotWorthy, tell me then, what is Paul’s desire, and his prayer for the salvation
of the Jews about, if not his love for them?
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mikeledes
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Before going any further, I just want to reaffirm certain facts:
Michael
- The Catholic Church teaches predestination/election, though it has a different flavor from Calvinism without being Arminian.
- God does not chose a person because that person chose him first. Rather, God freely choses a person and that person, enabled by His prevenient grace, freely choses Him.
- Both Thomist and Molinist Catholics believe that complete predestination to glory is ultimately based on God’s gracious choice. It is not based on foreseen merits or foreseen perseverance in merits. Where they differ is in the relationship between grace and free will. How does God save without destroying the freedom of the will (i.e. Determinism)?
- The number of the elect is immutably fixed, and hence they cannot be lost.
Michael
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mikeledes
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I lost momentum in my original line of argument, so I’m going to repost this:
think the relationship between free will and predestination or free will and grace is a very complex issue. The elect will infallibly be saved. But how does God accomplish that without destroying the freedom of the will? What about the reprobate? Does God ever give them the opportunity (i.e. sufficient grace) to repent and turn to Him? These are questions theologians for hundreds of years have attempted to answer. Let’s look at the following verse:
Isaiah 5:1-7
**1Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. 3And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
4What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. **
The vineyard is the House of Israel. God asserts that he did everything possible for His vineyard in order for it to produce righteousness. He even asks, “What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?” The question clearly implies that God did everything possible for His vineyard, and yet it did not bear the fruit He wanted. Now we all know that righteous living must be preceded by repentance and repentance must be preceded by grace. So if God did not provide sufficient grace in order for His people to bear fruit in righteousness, than there was something He could have done that he did not do. But the question in verse 4 and the metaphor in verses 2 clearly implies that God did everything needed in order for His people to bear righteous fruit and hence God must have provided sufficient grace. If God did His part, why wasn’t this grace efficacious? Another factor must have come into play, the human will. This demonstrates 3 points:
1)That grace is not irresistable, particularly in the case of the reprobate.
2)God takes into account the human will in accomplishing His plan of salvation. Otherwise, His vineyard would have born fruit, partcularly since He wanted it to bear fruit and did the work to accomplish it (i.e. provided sufficient grace).
Michael
think the relationship between free will and predestination or free will and grace is a very complex issue. The elect will infallibly be saved. But how does God accomplish that without destroying the freedom of the will? What about the reprobate? Does God ever give them the opportunity (i.e. sufficient grace) to repent and turn to Him? These are questions theologians for hundreds of years have attempted to answer. Let’s look at the following verse:
Isaiah 5:1-7
**1Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. 3And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
4What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. **
The vineyard is the House of Israel. God asserts that he did everything possible for His vineyard in order for it to produce righteousness. He even asks, “What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?” The question clearly implies that God did everything possible for His vineyard, and yet it did not bear the fruit He wanted. Now we all know that righteous living must be preceded by repentance and repentance must be preceded by grace. So if God did not provide sufficient grace in order for His people to bear fruit in righteousness, than there was something He could have done that he did not do. But the question in verse 4 and the metaphor in verses 2 clearly implies that God did everything needed in order for His people to bear righteous fruit and hence God must have provided sufficient grace. If God did His part, why wasn’t this grace efficacious? Another factor must have come into play, the human will. This demonstrates 3 points:
1)That grace is not irresistable, particularly in the case of the reprobate.
2)God takes into account the human will in accomplishing His plan of salvation. Otherwise, His vineyard would have born fruit, partcularly since He wanted it to bear fruit and did the work to accomplish it (i.e. provided sufficient grace).
- Sufficient grace is also offered to the reprobate and there is the possibility of genuine acceptance, since a genuine and sincere offer can only be such if it can be accepted. I cannot sincerely offer a starving person tied to a chair food if I at least do not make an attempt to untie him. If I do not untie him and then say he rejected the food I offered, my offer was not genuine or sincere.
Michael
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sandusky
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That is why I was puzzled by your responses; I think that I have been consistent in my position all the while I have been on this forum, though I will admit that my interaction here has caused me to grow in my beliefs by driving me to study.
But election did not override the pain in Paul’s heart, and his love for Israel. Prayer is not only about “the hopes of helping” others. Prayer is also about pouring out the concerns, the pains, the complaints of the heart to God, in adoration, and thanksgiving (cf the Psalms; Php 4:6). I believe that is what Paul was doing—he clearly understood God’s dealings with Israel, and he was clearly heartbroken over it. (Every godly predestinarian should be heartbroken over the lost; it keeps him inclined to proclaim the good news).
Thanks for that; the feeling is mutual.
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sandusky
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Inappropriate, or not, God knows your every thought; therefore, you can never keep your thoughts from Him, nor should you (Ps 139); neither could Paul, nor should he have.
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