Challenging Assumptions about Modesty

[1ke]

I often hear it argued on CAF that women are morally responsible to dress modestly in order to accommodate men and keep their male proclivities for lust in check.

It’s a two way street. Both men and women are to exercise the virtue of modesty. See the Catechism on modesty, under the ninth commandment, which is related to purity and a fruit of the virtue of temperance.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a9.htm

Modesty comes from within for both men and women, purity of heart, not from what others think or as you say “to accommodate men and keep their male proclivities for lust in check”.

 

[1ke]

If an attractive woman is wearing a tight dress, people will be quick to point out that she’s immodest. But if it’s a unattractive woman with an unattractive body, it’s not immodest.

It’s immodest either way. I don’t get why you would say it isn’t.

I was treated to a coworker wearing a way to short skirt giving me a great view of her underwear when she was sitting down AT A WORK EVENT. She literally has no shame.

 

[blackforest]

To be clear, I’m not opposed to modesty. Even during my skinny years, for example, I wore a modest one-piece swimsuit to the pool.

I’m challenging the assumption that we can blame the tempter when we fall into temptation. One day, we’re going to stand alone before God. There will be nobody else at whom to point a finger. Trust me. Adam and Eve already tried it.

 

[1ke]

I’m challenging the assumption that we can blame the tempter when we fall into temptation.

Well, by definition, a tempter is tempting the other person, and yes the bible does have something to say about a person putting another into temptation.

If you are trying to debunk a woman is “asking for it” when she is raped-- remember, rape is not a crime that is about sex, it is about power and violence. No one asks for violence, whether they are in a burka or a bikini.

What we are talking about when we are talking about modesty vis-à-vis temptation, we are talking about tempting another in a sexual way (see again, ninth commandment).

 

[Arwing]

I’m challenging the assumption that we can blame the tempter when we fall into temptation. One day, we’re going to stand alone before God. There will be nobody else at whom to point a finger. Trust me. Adam and Eve already tried it.

Being in a tempting situation neither justifies sin nor, itself, removes blame.

But both immodesty and lust are wrong, it’s not one or the other. And it’s also not that one person takes a share of the culpability of the other, because they are separate acts.

 

[Elizabeth3]

I’m challenging the assumption that we can blame the tempter when we fall into temptation. One day, we’re going to stand alone before God. There will be nobody else at whom to point a finger. Trust me. Adam and Eve already tried it.

A man who lusts after a woman, no matter how she is dressed, will stand before God with that sin. There is no doubt about that. Will God judge us less severely for sins we commit by having been tempted by another rather than those that arise solely from our own will? Only the perfectly just judge knows the level of culpability in each sin but reason tells us that it’s possible our culpability may be lessened if our sin came about by first being tempted by another.

The tempter doesn’t get away with their own sins either. He/She will be judged for willfully choosing or by neglecting to discern whether certain fashions or cultural norms are intended to bring about certain reactions from others.

Yes, Adam did try to deflect his own sin by blaming Eve and Eve did the same by blaming the serpent. Their sins brought death upon them. However, rather than leaving them with that judgement, God sent a savior. He was more lenient on them than what their sin deserved perhaps because they were tempted from an outside source rather than willfully choosing on their own. The original tempter (Satan), however, was offered no such savior or mercy.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Women have an obligation to dress modestly for the sake of the virtue of modesty. The same goes for men.

I think we’re better off leaving it just at that. The reason why modesty is a virtue is partly because it prevents other people from being tempted or driven into sin. Whether the other people actually commit a sin or have custody of their eyes is not the measure of whether you committed a sin in how you dress around others. Your own sin lies in the violation of the virtue, not in whether somebody else actually looked at you or had a lustful thought looking at you.

We are all responsible for our own lustful thoughts, which can often occur when the other person is dressed quite appropriately and reasonably modestly for the time and place.

 

[DarkLight]

Well, by definition, a tempter is tempting the other person, and yes the bible does have something to say about a person putting another into temptation.

The difficulty is, I think, properly applying the virtue of prudence. Some people have more, shall we say, striking figures than others. Some men are more prone to temptation than others, especially if they have been in the habit of objectifying women. Some people also, I think, don’t differentiate properly between attraction and temptation. And some guys, as I’ve had it put to me, aren’t stumbling so much as jumping in with both feet (I tend to think the sort hooting out car windows are generally in this category).

Unless one is particularly close to a woman, generally any attire that’s reasonably within social acceptability for the situation should be left alone.

 

[1ke]

My point was the tempter is purposely tempting. That’s not the same thing as someone being tempted by you.

As opposed to being ignorant-- like some girls don’t really get the fact that wearing booty shorts and a low cut tank is immodest. Or being normal and someone being tempted because of their own internal issues.

 

[TheLittleLady]

This was the practice back 30 years ago when I entered the business world as well.

Makes me wonder why so may people seem to think it is a great idea to meet co workers, staff “alone”.

I remember someone, it might have been Billy Graham’s wife, saying that she would not pray alone with a man other than her family member because prayer is so very intimate. I need to find that quote.

 

[DarkLight]

My point was the tempter is purposely tempting. That’s not the same thing as someone being tempted by you.

As opposed to being ignorant-- like some girls don’t really get the fact that wearing booty shorts and a low cut tank is immodest. Or being normal and someone being tempted because of their own internal issues.

I’m not sure that’s consistent with how I’ve seen it being used. I’ve seen that kind of language used very commonly in any case where someone does in fact end up being a temptation to someone else, even if there is no intent.

I know I’ve said things like “It seems I’m a temptation simply by appearing in public” before.

 

[choose_to_love]

I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but you do realize that the article you linked does not contain Mr. Pence’s actual reasons, only supposition on the part of the author of the piece, right?

IIRC, Ta-Nehisi Coates, not a conservative, also had similar standards.

 

[PetraG]

I hear constantly opinions about what women shouldn’t wear - short cut-off shorts, miniskirts, and bikinis. Let’s focus instead on what you think we should wear.

May I point out that it isn’t considered in good taste even for men to wear very short shorts or to go work or anywhere but exercise with shirts open more than about 4 inches below their collar bones? Are men lead to expect to be taken seriously if they wear tight clothing meant to make them look sexy, et cetera?

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There is also a lot of clothing that it is deemed OK to wear if you are slender and fit, but not if you are not. It is not “flattering,” they say. OK, so that kind of implies that the whole point of “fit and slender” people wearing that kind of thing is to show off their bodies, right? To wear clothing that puts them in a flattering light compared to others?

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Why does a Christian want to show off his or her sexual attractiveness? What virtue is intended in this?

 

[LateCatholic]

, he does this so women don’t have to be in an uncomfortable situation (where they have to be on their guard)…or as a way to show respect to his wife. David Schwimmer (Ross from Friends) once invited a chaperone when a female journalist had to interview him in a private room so that she would feel comfortable. He was praised for that.

I believe you are missing the point. If he did this AND treated men the same way, it would be commended. But he treats women differently. Consider this - say the woman journalist raised an issue. She wants a private one-on-one with Schwimmer, thinking hell be more honest if it’s just her and him. He says no, he wants to avoid any bad appearances.

Two days later, a MALE journalist asks to interview him. The male journalist wants a private one-on-one interview because he thinks he’ll be more honest if it is just him and him. Schwimmer says sure! They’re bros after all.

THAT is the difference.

 

[QwertyGirl]

Side note - I was shocked when Vice President Pence said he never meets with a woman alone, as the temptation to commit adultery would be too great

He has an ick factor with regards to all that.

 

[MiserereMei25]

Am I the only one who thinks both men and women should dress conservativley regardless? It is a Catholic thing you know. Imagine the Blessed Virgin Mary wearing tight shorts up to her cheeks and a low cut blouse. Does that image make sense to anybody? If Our Lady and St. Joseph dressed conservatively as they did, we should do the same.

 

[MiserereMei25]

Amen amen amen amen amen. It’s not that hard to understand, is it?

 

[DeniseNY]

We are all responsible for our own lustful thoughts, which can often occur when the other person is dressed quite appropriately and reasonably modestly for the time and place.

Exactly.

Even when I would wear a dress that hit below the knee and jacket to the office, there would still be men who would lear at me. I’m not wearing a burka because there are men who either can’t control their thoughts, or just don’t want to. That’s not my responsibility, it’s theirs.

 

[MiserereMei25]

From the CCC for all Catholics:
2521 Purity requires modesty , an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

[2522](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2522.htm’) Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

[2523](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2523.htm’) There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

I’m not wearing a burka because there are men who either can’t control their thoughts, or just don’t want to. That’s not my responsibility, it’s theirs.

Even that burka would not keep you safe from the lustful gaze of some men. There is lots of erotica written about women in burkas.