CHALLENGING mary's assumption

[Ag_not]

What does “intransigence” mean?

Intransigence is characterized by a refusal to compromise or to abandon an extreme position or attitude.

 

[onenow1]

Hi, ja4
Some claim that the Assumption never happened because it is not in the Scriptures, but remember ja4, that the Bible deals with God not Mary. The Bible does not deal with the earthy end of any of the original disciples after the Gospels end…

I think it highly unlikely that Jesus would not honor His mother, as someone really special ja4. As a fine Jewish boy.Jesus kept all the commaandments perfectly.

Peace, onenow1izza:

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Now we understand your true intentions. Thank you for clarifying.

Hi Ashley you didn’t buy JustAsking4The100thTime’s answer did you?
JustAsking4The100thTime:

i ask because the Scriptures command it freesmileys.org/smileys/char048.gif

**
I answer him because the Scriptures command it: “Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.” Pro 26:5 You might wonder why doesn’t he “understand” and must ask again and again and again? Well the Bible also provides insight into that: “Jesus said: … But, to those outside everything comes in parables so that they look and see but not perceive and hear and listen but do not understand, in order that thy may not be converted and be forgotten”. Mark 4:11-12 JA4 belongs to another than our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ! SIGH, what a shame, they seem like such nice people! Yup, what a shame.:yup: **
JustAsking4The100thTime:

I Thes 5:21 is a case in point. Secondly what a person believes impacts their living and can also impact their eternal destiny.

**We have all been telling him that. Reject the CC and you are rejecting salvation! But does he listen? **
JustAsking4The100thTime:

Questions also help to determine if something is true or not by the answers given.

**
Hmmm, I can’t think of any teaching in the Scriptures where this is said. Do you have a reference? Who does this apply to? How are we as individuals to apply this to ourselves? **
JustAsking4The100thTime:

Questions also help us to grow in knowledge.

** This claim also cannot be sustained by Scripture for the mere fact it does not completely followed the Scripture’s teachings and practices. Now if you had said answers, I would have had to said: Not sure what you are saying. Can you clarify?**
JustAsking4The100thTime:

If you read the gospels you will see Jesus being asked questions and asking questions continually. He is the ultimate model for us.

**Do you claim to know and understand what your church teaches perfectly? Do you claim to obey perfectly? Do you consider yourself equal to Jesus? Would you acceot His mother as yours if You did? Would you pray to her? **
JustAsking4The100thTime:

Have you engaged a Mormon or a Jehovah witness on your doorstep?

Several times! You should see them run when I yell, “MEET MY FRIEND!!!” freesmileys.org/smileys/violent069.gif
JustAsking4The100thTime:

Asking them the right questions can tell you a lot about what they believe

Yup, I agree, “Does your god make you bullet proof?” "Can you run quicker than a bullet from a 30.6?"freesmileys.org/smileys/violent007.gif
JustAsking4The100thTime:

and if you know the truth you can help them see the errors in their beliefs.

**If it doesn’t work with YOU why would they be any different?

JA4: Reference SDAs. I, as some theologians consider them to be a cult. However some others believe them to be one of your 33,000 counterfeit Christian denominations, but with aberrational theology in peripheral doctrines {those which do not involve salvation}. SDA have but one creed: “The Bible, and the Bible alone.” Sound familiar? What do you think? Base your answers on scrupture please. **

 

[guanophore]

Were these men infallible and incapable of erring in their beliefs? The Marian dogmas were not the focus of the great Prostestant Reformantion as far as i can tell and these reformers were still influenced by their catholicism as far as i can tell. This would help to explain why they wrote about her as they did.

What you appear to be saying is that the Reformers “got it right” when they redefined the canon, and created a different gospel, but they they were still inordinately influence by Catholic falsehoods when it came to Mary. How is it the Holy Spirit failed to enlighen them on this? Why did the HS fail to get this into His theses? Shouldn’t this have been the 96th thesis?

It seems no one can say exactly what these “Oral Traditions” and “Sacred Teachings” specifically are since there does not exist any offical list or catalogue in the church.

This statement represents a gross fault in logical reasoning.

Aside from that, it denies the many examples that you have been given over the course of the last two years of Sacred Tradition. It is bearing false witness against the dozens of posters here who have faithfully and patiently shown you examples of Sacred Tradtition. however, I agree that it is not possible for you to grasp these things.

Heb 5:14
14 But solid food is for the mature, for those whose faculties have been trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.

The fact that you come here and repeatedly post lies is very clear evidence that your faculties are not trained or that you are intractible and recalcitrant. Either way, the solid food will be beyond your reach.

As for a “list”, since we cannot imagine how this can be done, could you please show us how?

Tradition is reflected in the Word of God written on the heart of the Church, the living letter, are the Traditions (Holy way of life) taught by the Apostles. thsi lifestyle (living and thinking in a Christlike manner) is called in the NT “The Way”.

2 Cor 3:2-3
" You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all; 3 and you show that you are a letter of Christ, prepared by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts."

This is Sacred Tradition, the Spirit of the Living God manifest in the Church. Sacred Tradition is God’s Word at work in the Church. Some of this Sacred Tradition is reflected in the doctrine, manner of fellowhship, Eucharist and other Liturgy and the Prayers of the Church.

Acts 2:41-42
“They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.”

The Apostles’ teaching, not all of which later became part of the NT, fellowship (how people are to behave when gathered), the breaking of the bread (Divine Liturgy) and prayers (only a few of which were recorded in the NT.

Here is what the catechism teaches about Sacred Tradition:

“The Catholic Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.”

This is the contents of the living letter.

So, having this information, please develp for us a “list” so we can see how this is done. Please “list” for us what you, in your doctrine, life, and worship, transmit and perpetuate to every generation all that you yourself are, and all that you yourself believe. Maybe this will help us understand how it can be done.

 

[guanophore]

Sorry:blush: That post was a bit of a non sequitor.I meant to say that Catholic Tradition has substance ,you just cannot see it or refuse to acknowledge it.

Yet among the mature we do speak wisdom, though it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to perish. 7 But we speak God’s wisdom, secret and hidden…" 1 Cor 2:6-7

Heb 5:14
14 But solid food is for the mature, for those whose faculties have been trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.

" Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and **they are unable **to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14

Rom 1:17
“…God is revealed through faith for faith…”

The faithless and the immature are not able to “see”.

justasking4, why do you bother? Youve had a million explanations, a million rebuttals, and it seems nothing, absolutely nothing that is offered to you is ever going to be taken on board, which is faie enough, but WHY do you keep asking the same questions and saying the same things over and over and over unendingly.

Nothing catholics can say to you will be a reasonable explanation for YOU, so why do you keep comming back to the Marion Doctrines?

Do you feel drawn to them somehow but are frightened?

Serious question by the way - because your intransigence requires further study.

I think you have hit this nail right on the head.

 

[guanophore]

Then don’t use this as a defense as something that has substance.

Your refusal to recognize substance does not make substance go away.

You have already acknowledged that the Bible you are thumping us on the head with is a product of Sacred Tradtiion, so that leaves you looking pretty foolish.

Then why can’t catholics demonstrate it clearly and offically what exactly it is?

Perhaps you could show us how? I posted an outline above.

I’m familar defintions have seen few examples like Sunday worship and a couple of other things. What i have not seen is a offical list by the church that shows what they are. I suspect it does not exist even though the term “Tradition” is still used.

I suspect that you are right. I, for one, have not figured out how to reduce the living presence of Christ in the Church to a “list”. I hope you can help us figure this out.

I am puzzled that you first accept, then reject the Bible as a product of Sacred Tradition. It seems like a pretty “solid” example to me.

For example are there were there any “Traditions” that were formed in the past couple of hundred years?

One has to wonder, since this question has been asked and answered so many dozens of times, what your goal might be?

What determines what a Tradition is and who decides in the church what they are? Popes, councils etc?

I note the same thing as the question above. You keep asking these then rejecting the answers, then asking them again?

I suggest, if you really are a slow learner, as it appears, you may need a little extra time to read and think about the answers. Perhaps you could save the answer to a text file, and spend some time reading over them, or search justasking4 and Sacred Tradition, and reread your questions and the answers that have been provided.

Or, perhaps you really just want to emulate the behavior of an annoying horsefly, buzzing and biting at the members of the Body of Christ, in which case, such a method does not commend itself to you.

How many “Traditions” do you think there are?

I am looking forward to seeing your “list” of how you embody the Teaching of Jesus in your life.

To understand Catholic teachings and what catholics know.

Why do you “need” this, ja4? You have made it clear that you believe these are false teachings and the “speculation of men”. What kind of morbid curiosity are you having that makes you want to study teachings that you already believe are wrong?

So the bottom line is you don’t know?

No, I think the bottom line is that YOU don’t know, and you can’t know. Sorry.

 

[guanophore]

Would you ask us how many flowers are in a flower field? Would you ask us to count the stars? The traditions of the church intertwine with every aspect of the faith…they are the Word of God brought to life! They are as numerous as the souls who make up the body of Christ. You cannot number them, you cannot “list” them…because they continue to grow and develope as we continue to grow with our Lord.

I think it is more accurate to say that the Sacred Tradition grows IN us as we grow with the Lord. I say this for a couple reasons. One is that Sacred Tradition is considered part of the Divine Deposit of faith that was delivered once and for all to the saints. The Church teaches that public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. It is we who grow and develop, not the Deposit of faith.

The other reason is that ja4’s goal is to "prove’ that the Church is “false” because we teach that the Sacred Tradition was delivered once for all, yet we keep “adding” to the deposit. By this she hopes to discredit the Church.

Why do you continue to ask?

It is more likely to catch someone making a mistep, so she can then point the finger and say “see?”

I ask because the Scriptures command it. I Thes 5:21 is a case in point.

No, ja4, the scriptures do not command that you keep asking the same questions over and over when you have already been given the answers multiple times. Trying to hide your insidious attacks and calumny behind a scriptural imperative is sacriligous.

Secondly what a person believes impacts there living and can also impact their eternal destiny.

Sounds like you are really worried about the eternal destiny of Catholics.

Questions also help to determine if something is true or not by the answers given.

No, ja4, this is the wrong way to determine truth. You know yourself that individuals can give many wrong answers. the correct way to find out the Truth is to get it from the Source, which is Jesus. Have you ever asked Him these questions? I bet you will get a lot further if you did that every day, instead of reposting them here, hoping to catch Catholics falling short. You can also go to the catechism, which reflects the truth that God has revealed to the Church.

Questions also help us to grow in knowledge.

I think this is true for someone who is really interested in learning. However you have made it clear from the start that is not why you are here. Your goal is to foment rebellion among CAtholics, encourage them to turn against the authority Jesus appointed, as you have, and convert to “Bible Christians”.

If you read the gospels you will see Jesus being asked questions and asking questions continually. He is the ultimate model for us.

I agree. I suggest you follow the scriptural example, and cease from machine gunning us. Take them to Jesus!

Ask Him why you are so compelled to keep coming back here.

Have you engaged a Mormon or a Jehovah witness on your doorstep? Asking them the right questions can tell you a lot about what they believe and if you know the truth you can help them see the errors in their beliefs.

I understand that your goal is to get us to see the error of our beliefs. However, this is not the purpose of CAF. This forum is not here for you to further your fundamentalist agenda of evangelization. We are here to answer sincere questions from genuine inquirers.

 

[guanophore]

What 2-3 questions pointed holes in your theology?

Trying to derail another thread?

 

[guanophore]

This guy is totally immune to rational arguement.He speaks but does not listen.Justasking,you have NO credibility.This thread is a complete waste of time.

Soutane, you have to understand the goal here. The questions are just a method to draw Catholics into discussion so that they can be enticed to rebel against the Church.

There are many teachings in the Catholic church that are not the teachings of Christ.

What about those practices-doctrines that are not found in scripture or the church fathers? Things like priestly celibacy as requirement, praying to Mary and
praying the rosary. These things are not mentioned in scripture or early teachings of the church. Are they binding? Do they carry the authority of the scriptures?

Truth is never determined by authority but by the facts. If you don’t have the facts to back up a claim, you really can’t say you have the truth. Do you believe your church can ever be wrong?

I believe that the scriptures are the inspired word of God but i don’t always believe what your church or my church teaches is always right. In sense we must pick and choose what we will believe to be the truth. I’m would think even you have certain qualms about some issues in your church.

"justasking4:

My question is this: since the scripture never teaches such a thing like this about Mary, **is this not
a false teaching **since it cannot be grounded in the scriptures? If not taught in scripture, how would your church know this to be a fact about her?

If you can’t find clear support for a doctrine, then what you are left with is speculation. Speculation is not a foundation in which to build a doctrine on. Its like building on sand. Jesus promised in John 14:26 that the HS would bring “remembrance” of all He said. This would evenually lead to the writing down what they heard. What are the signs that the Holy Spirit is guiding the church?

I have seen this claim many times about Sacred Tradition and those things not recorded in the scriptures. The problem is that if its not in the scriptures, its not
inspired-inerrant. Those things not in the scriptures are not binding though. They do not carry apostolic authority. It is true there are other authorties but since the scriptures alone are
inspired-inerrant these authorities are under the authority of the scriptures. Keep in mind that most of these if not all of them are not grounded in the scriptures.

"guanophore:

ja4, you seem to want to lead Catholics into questioning the Magesterium.

justasking4:

And well they should question. The scriptures warn of false teachers in the church who will decieve many. That is why you should hold your church accountable to what the scriptures teach. When you study the marian doctrines in light of the scriptures you will find that the support is not there.

What you must do is be on guard against false teachers in your own church. The scriptures do warn of** false teachers in the church itself**. There was no promise given by Christ that this would not happen.

guanophore:

Furthermore, my question to you was, why do YOU want to discuss it, since you have already rejected the very notion. Why waste your time?

justasking4:

Engaging for the truth is never a waste of time. Secondly it might get someone who reads these posts to rethink their position.

guanophore:

You have already stated they are “speculations of men” and have no validity, since you do not see them in your bible.

** i want to help others see it to**. Engaging for the truth is never a waste of time.

Secondly it might get someone who reads these posts to rethink their position.

It could just as easily be shown in some respects how quickly the church was allowing unbilical teachings into the church at a very early stage.

I would counter Newman with this: To know the Scriptures is to be Protestant.

As far as ja4 is concerned, detracting from the Catholic faith is never a waste of time!

 

[sodak]

There is no such potrait of Mary in the scriptures like this.

And my Catholic answer is “So what?” If the Catholic portrait of Mary **contradicted **Scripture, then I’d be concerned. But it doesn’t. Scripture is not always a complete list of everything that I want to know. Sometimes I wish it were, but it’s God’s will, not mine, as to what He reveals to us in the Scripture.

Have you ever engaged a mormon?

No, I married a Catholic. Sorry, I couldn’t let that one go…

What i have found with catholics is that it always will get down to their church authority no matter what. This is their ultimate defense.

Correct. And I’m very glad to have my Church Authority watching over me. It is an **EXTREMELY **effective defense against Satan.

You can search the gosples and you won’t find Jesus promising His church could never err. Leading the disciples (not the church) into all the truth is not the same as being incapable of erring.

According to you. I read it differently, much differently. The Apostles also understood it differently, actually being there to hear Jesus’s words.

You can’t lead the Church into all truth if you have error in your teachings. Kind of like entering into heaven while being stained with sin. Ain’t going to happen.

Who in the catholic church understands all that it teaches correctly?

Oh come on, that’s too easy. The Holy Spirit, of course! You know, the one that Jesus promised would come and guide the Apostles after Jesus ascended to heaven.

But you have no real way to check yourself if you are truly interpreting specific verses correctly. For example what about those verses and passages that have no direct impact on a doctrine?

See the above answer.

JA4, this is just getting old. Jesus promised Peter the keys. That carries enormous significance, and no, I’m not going to go into depth about that, you can look it up for yourself. And you might need to go to a historical, non-Biblical source. Jesus then promised that the Church would prevail against the gates of Hell. He promised his Apostles that the Holy Spirit would guide them.

Then the Apostles went out and followed Jesus’s commandments. They grew the Church as instructed, and most of them were martyred as well. They were guided by the Holy Spirit, and our Church grew out of that. It’s still guided by the Holy Spirit to this very day. We can take confidence and reassurance from this.

Why is that so hard for you to believe? You either trust what Jesus said, or you don’t. If you can trust him for your salvation, why can’t you trust his promises to us on earth?

 

[justasking4]

sodak;4393701]
Originally Posted by justasking4
There is no such potrait of Mary in the scriptures like this.

sodak
And my Catholic answer is “So what?” If the Catholic portrait of Mary contradicted Scripture, then I’d be concerned. But it doesn’t. Scripture is not always a complete list of everything that I want to know. Sometimes I wish it were, but it’s God’s will, not mine, as to what He reveals to us in the Scripture.

Here is the full comment that i posted that will help us to understand if your comment to it is valid. I wrote :
“You realize that what you are saying here and throughout this post are assumptions? You must for example assume that she is the mother of catholics and has power to help you here. There is no such potrait of Mary in the scriptures like this.”

We look to the Scriptures and is there any mention in them in any verse that she is the helper of Christians and she is to be prayed to? There is none. Now if the Catholic church says she is then they are not going by the Scriptures but something else…

 

[justasking4]

Hi, ja4
Some claim that the Assumption never happened because it is not in the Scriptures, but remember ja4, that the Bible deals with God not Mary. The Bible does not deal with the earthy end of any of the original disciples after the Gospels end…

I think it highly unlikely that Jesus would not honor His mother, as someone really special ja4. As a fine Jewish boy.Jesus kept all the commaandments perfectly.

Peace, onenow1izza:

I agree with much you write here. However it cannot be claimed that Mary was assumned into heaven on Bbilical grounds is to speculate. It is also not mentioned for centuries.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Here is the full comment that i posted that will help us to understand if your comment to it is valid. I wrote :
“You realize that what you are saying here and throughout this post are assumptions? You must for example assume that she is the mother of catholics and has power to help you here. There is no such potrait of Mary in the scriptures like this.”

We look to the Scriptures and is there any mention in them in any verse that she is the helper of Christians and she is to be prayed to? There is none. Now if the Catholic church says she is then they are not going by the Scriptures but something else…

You are still missing the forest for the trees here…

You are picking up a Bible, and putting on your “Sola Scriptura” “personal interpretation” glasses while you read it.

A Catholic picks up a Bible and puts on our “Sacred Tradition” glasses, so that we can read the Bible in the context the authors meant for it to be read. And those glasses include all of the unwritten, oral, theological, praticed, sacramental, marian, apostolic traditions that the apostles and their successors handed to us. The Bible itself is a PART of tradition… And that being said, it will not contradict anything that makes up Sacred tradition.

Just as when YOU pick up a Bible with your glasses on, it will not contradict your “sola scriptura, 5 fundamentals, personal interpretation” tradition lenses. The question is, which lenses contradict scripture? Last I checked, the Bible asked us to hold to the Word and the traditions handed down to us.

 

[Henning]

Howdy

I know there’s no eyewitness account in scripture of Mary’s assumption, but just wondering if there’s any tradition that says so and so many people witnessed her assumption at a particular location.

 

[Ag_not]

Howdy

I know there’s no eyewitness account in scripture of Mary’s assumption, but just wondering if there’s any tradition that says so and so many people witnessed her assumption at a particular location.

Nope.

As far as I know - Ive never seen this referred to - but I may be wrong.

Still, not one single human being, not one, saw me get dressed this morning.

I still though

 

[Henning]

Nope.

As far as I know - Ive never seen this referred to - but I may be wrong.

Still, not one single human being, not one, saw me get dressed this morning.

I still though

That’s a goood thing

so her assumption is based on *connections *in the scripture

 

[sodak]

We look to the Scriptures and is there any mention in them in any verse that she is the helper of Christians and she is to be prayed to? There is none. Now if the Catholic church says she is then they are not going by the Scriptures but something else…

That is correct. And please don’t mistake that for an apology. Please re-read my entire post.

 

[sodak]

I agree with much you write here. However it cannot be claimed that Mary was assumned into heaven on Bbilical grounds is to speculate. It is also not mentioned for centuries.

Correct. We are not saying it based on “Biblical bounds”.

 

[sodak]

That’s a goood thing

so her assumption is based on *connections *in the scripture

Not necessarily.

 

[justasking4]

AshleyBelle;4393907]You are still missing the forest for the trees here…

You are picking up a Bible, and putting on your “Sola Scriptura” “personal interpretation” glasses while you read it.

I have my personal interpretation just as you have yours.

A Catholic picks up a Bible and puts on our “Sacred Tradition” glasses, so that we can read the Bible in the context the authors meant for it to be read.

Do you mean that when you read Matthew 5 for example you read it through your “Sacred Tradition glasses”. How do you do this?

And those glasses include all of the unwritten, oral, theological, praticed, sacramental, marian, apostolic traditions that the apostles and their successors handed to us. The Bible itself is a PART of tradition… And that being said, it will not contradict anything that makes up Sacred tradition.

How do you know it does not contradict these various examples if the “Tradition” is unwritten and oral? How can you know what unwritten and oral tradition is if you have no proof of what it is?

Just as when YOU pick up a Bible with your glasses on, it will not contradict your “sola scriptura, 5 fundamentals, personal interpretation” tradition lenses. The question is, which lenses contradict scripture?

My personal interpretation could be off because i don’t have enough background to understand a particular passage or verse.

Last I checked, the Bible asked us to hold to the Word and the traditions handed down to us.

If you are referring to the traditions that Paul mentions in 2 Thes 2:15 he does not specifically mention what these traditions of his he is referring to. Secondly, he never mentions anything in his writings about Mary being assumed, queen of heaven or praying to her.