CHALLENGING mary's assumption

[Good_Fella]

Elijah was assumed. Why him and not the Apostles?

Ask God. He should know. But Enoch and Elijah are not in heaven with Mary and Jesus. They exist body and soul in an original state of paradise. Only Jesus and Mary exist gloriously body and soul in heaven.

 

[justasking4]

Ag_not;4395267]I actually think justasking4 has the making of a wonderful catholic. Just as soon as she can learn to let go and trust.

justasking4 - the last time you caught a plane - did you see the pilot?

Did you read her/his training manual?

Did you interview them to assess their experience?

Did you present 100 scenarios to them and grade their answers?

Heck, did you even know that the person in the cockpit was even a pilot or that they had ever flown a plane in their lives?

Course you didn’t. You just took your seat, tightened your belt, and enjoyed the excitement of defying logic and physics and flying through the air.

You trusted. You trusted a complete and total and unseen unknown stranger with your life.

Now if you could just trust the catholic church as much as you trusted that pilot you’ll have the ride of your life - and land safely in heaven

I trust the pilots based on my expierence and the expierence of others. At this point i have no reason not to trust them. This does not mean they are incapable of making mistakes while flying. We know of many cases when they have and it has caused people their lives.
However, there is plenty of reason not to trust your church or mine completely if you have found reasons not to. Just look at the history of your church and you will see what i mean. Secondly, as i have studied Scripture and compared Catholic teachings with them they both cannot be right. What the Catholic church has done to exalt Mary is a case in point. Mary’s assumption is not even hinted at nor is her supposedly being immaculately concieved.

The Scriptures do exhort us to trust our leaders unconditionally. Rather they warn that false teachers will come into the church and decieve many. 2 Peter 2:1

 

[guanophore]

I trust the pilots based on my expierence and the expierence of others.

Yes, I think this is true for all of us. In a like manner, you distrust the Catholic Church based on your own experience, and the experience of others.

At this point i have no reason not to trust them. This does not mean they are incapable of making mistakes while flying. We know of many cases when they have and it has caused people their lives.

Yes, and somehow, somewhere, you have been given “reason” not to trust the Catholic C’hurch. However, unlike being willing to get on a plane when you know there have been fatal accidents, you are unwilling to open yourself to what the Church actually teaches. This is an intense fear based response. Some people have this with planes, too. John Madden, for example, has his own bus, and refuses to fly. He has adapted to his fears by avoiding what he considers the source of them.

However, there is plenty of reason not to trust your church or mine completely if you have found reasons not to. Just look at the history of your church and you will see what i mean.

Sorry, I don’t see it.

I see nothing that looks any worse than a bomb in the baggage dept, slamming the plane into a builiding, or crashing.

None of the bad things that have happened in the history of flying have prevented me from getting on a plane. None of the bad things that have happened in history have prevented me from trustng the promises that Jesus gave to the Church.

Secondly, as i have studied Scripture and compared Catholic teachings with them they both cannot be right.

At the very least, your understand of one, or the other, or both is surely flawed.

What the Catholic church has done to exalt Mary is a case in point. Mary’s assumption is not even hinted at nor is her supposedly being immaculately concieved.

It is a mystery why this bothers you so much, ja4. However it was God who exalted Mary, not humans. Although I will say, when the humans understood what God had done for her, we got on board.

The Scriptures do exhort us to trust our leaders unconditionally. Rather they warn that false teachers will come into the church and decieve many. 2 Peter 2:1

It is ok, ja4, we know you are here, an we are on guard! :knight2:

Jesus does tell us that we can trust HIM unconditionally, so no matter how many pilots make errors, or leaders make errors, nothing has to prevent me from trusting HIM.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Oh, you are the one that doesn’t spell to good. (Yea, we notice things like that!)
**Anyway, How are you? You are always nicer that “that other one” You know who I mean! Before we start, remember: "An analogy isn’t the same thing as being the same thing! --The Economist **

I trust the pilots based on my expierence and the expierence of others.

Sure just like we do the Catholic Church!

At this point i have no reason not to trust them.

Nor do we with the Catholic Church!

This does not mean they are incapable of making mistakes while flying. We know of many cases when they have and it has caused people their lives.

Yea, We hear about the crasheds. Thank goodness the Catholic Church has the HS as our pilot. I heard that many people lose their souls because of practicing the wrong faith. I hope it isn’t true!

However, there is plenty of reason not to trust your church or mine completely if you have found reasons not to.

Have you ever talked to a MHS about this paranoia? It might not be healthy. I know it is treatable.

Just look at the history of your church and you will see what i mean.

Yea, we should have listened to Jesus and followed all His teachings and commandments! Hey, wait, :doh2: We did! Sorry I was reflecting on the Protestant faiths. My bad!

Secondly, as i have studied Scripture and compared Catholic teachings with them they both cannot be right.

Amen!

What the Catholic church has done to exalt Mary is a case in point. Mary’s assumption is not even hinted at nor is her supposedly being immaculately concieved.

**Yea. I have to admit it is pretty smart of us sucking up to her Son and His Father by honoring her wasn’t it? **
**But after all, remember. she was conceived without sin, remained a virgin her entire life, willingly gave herself to God as the new ark, raised Jesus, taught Him to be a good son and to Honor His parents. And boy did he ever! I mean, Jesus even assumed her body and soul into heaven with him, how cool is that!! We actually owed honor to her. I mean Jesus made her our Mother! How could we not Honor her? We are truly sorry that you guys didn’t wait to leave the real church until late, or at least do what some of the other 33,000 counterfeit denominations with their 28,000 imitation sub denominations and 1,375 different doctrines did. You could have “borrow” our devotion to Mary when you borrowed the Bible. It is actually too bad that none of you took the real body and blood of Christ. Yea, we all read what Jesus said about people who do not consume His Real Body and Blood! Over and over again He warned! SIGH! ertrnal danmnation and you are so close! (Oh, different thread, sorry!) **

The Scriptures do exhort us to trust our leaders unconditionally.

But Jesus asked us the harrowing question,: “When the Son of an comes, will He find faith on earth?” (Lk 18:8). That question is ever present and ever personal.” When He comes, He will judge each one of us on the basis of our faith “working through love” (Gal 5:6). If the Lord were to come right now, what faith would He find? Would He be able to say to you or to me, “Great is your faith!,” like He said to the Syro-Phoenician woman in the Gospel (Mt 15:28)? Or would He say, “O you of little faith?” (Mt 6:30; 8:26, 14:31, 16:8, 17:20).
Would He say about all of us together, “You are the ones who have stood by me faithfully in my trials” (Lk 22:28-29) or, rather, “This is a faithless and perverse generation” (Mt 17:17)? The Son of Man is indeed coming and what He will want to find — what I think He hopes to find — is His one true Church honoring His mother, and obeying all His teachings.

Rather they warn that false teachers will come into the church and decieve many. 2 Peter 2:1

**Yea, they did warn and It actually happened. Go figure! How they knew that 1,500 years later all the false denominations would be started, by the devil, to steal sins from God! Thank God for God, and His mercy there is still time, if protestants would onlt read and ynderstand that God warned of false teachers coming into the church and deceiving many! Peter 2:1 **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

She could have sinned. Eve was created without original sin, just like Mary, and Eve chose to sin. Mary chose not to sin. That is why she is our role model. Jesus wants all of us, by the power of the HS in us, to cease from sin.

**Hi Guano,

Yes, Mary had free will and use it not to sin! An excellent example for us. I was wondering if she was tempted like we are? Then I remember Satan even tempted Jesus so of course he would Mary!

God Bless**

 

[August_Ambrose]

Steve Ray just addressed the Assumption in a new paper posted on his website:

Understanding the Assumption and Queenship of Mary

catholicconvert.com/Portals/0/AssumptionAndQueen2.pdf

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

that ain’t the way i heard it, the way I heard it was that Mary became ill and summoned the apolsles to be with her, they came and stayed until she died and when she died they buried he in a tomb and latter visited her and found that she wasn’t there! assumption!!
Whats your story. It really doesn’t matter, does it, our church says its so, a matter of faith.
I believe it, so there

 

[August_Ambrose]

that ain’t the way i heard it, the way I heard it was that Mary became ill and summoned the apolsles to be with her, they came and stayed until she died and when she died they buried he in a tomb and latter visited her and found that she wasn’t there! assumption!!
Whats your story. It really doesn’t matter, does it, our church says its so, a matter of faith.
I believe it, so there

You do realize that christians had tridation before we gathered the manuscrips together to write the bible that you use today… Mary is part of the rich tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, get over it, she was sinless and immaculate and was assumed into heaven by her son, Jesus.

 

[August_Ambrose]

Sin is not doing the will og God, we beleive that Mary aways did the will of God, there for no sins for Mary, the Mother of God, Jesus.

 

[August_Ambrose]

Yes, I think this is true for all of us. In a like manner, you distrust the Catholic Church based on your own experience, and the experience of others.

Yes, and somehow, somewhere, you have been given “reason” not to trust the Catholic C’hurch. However, unlike being willing to get on a plane when you know there have been fatal accidents, you are unwilling to open yourself to what the Church actually teaches. This is an intense fear based response. Some people have this with planes, too. John Madden, for example, has his own bus, and refuses to fly. He has adapted to his fears by avoiding what he considers the source of them.

Sorry, I don’t see it.

I see nothing that looks any worse than a bomb in the baggage dept, slamming the plane into a builiding, or crashing.

None of the bad things that have happened in the history of flying have prevented me from getting on a plane. None of the bad things that have happened in history have prevented me from trustng the promises that Jesus gave to the Church.

At the very least, your understand of one, or the other, or both is surely flawed.

It is a mystery why this bothers you so much, ja4. However it was God who exalted Mary, not humans. Although I will say, when the humans understood what God had done for her, we got on board.

It is ok, ja4, we know you are here, an we are on guard! :knight2:

Jesus does tell us that we can trust HIM unconditionally, so no matter how many pilots make errors, or leaders make errors, nothing has to prevent me from trusting HIM.

The Roman Catholic has a rich history of living faith called tradition and the assurance of the truth through the Holy Spirit spoken through our Holy Father, the Pontiiff.

 

[August_Ambrose]

sorry guys for being a little “upfront”, but i am a Protestant attending a catholic school. i hear that catholics teach that “mary assended body and soul to heaven before she died”.

hmmmm, where do catholics get this idea from? i mean, as far as i am concerned, the Bible never mentions this. and, isnt that the only source of christian knowledge?

at the moment, i totally disagree with this teaching. but, no one at school has been able to argue their beliefs to me (they all thought it was taught in the bible). please, i am open to debate, i want to know the reasons why catholics believe this so that i am not simply blindly denying this teaching.

Before the bible was writen, the catholic church had 300 years of tradition, stories, repeated by beleivers, about Mary. Later the Church diceided which were sound, like the immaculate conception and the assumption through the inspirition of the Holy Spirit and spoken throu the Pope

 

[August_Ambrose]

This is such an amazing proof to me. We Catholics save everything! We have relics of knucklebones and St’s old hankies. There is a strong tradition about where Mary lived with John on Ephesis, but nothing about where she was buried and certainly no one has ever claimed to have her body. Amazing!

Her body was assumed into heaven by her son, Jesus, what relecs are you looking for, clothes? There zre several bureral sites in Isearl, at Mount Carmel and in Jesueam.

 

[August_Ambrose]

Where in scripture does it say Mary wasn’t assumed?

Where did Jesus get His flesh from?

Mary.

Where did Jesus get His blood from?

Mary.

Jesus and Mary share flesh and blood.

Doesn’t it make sense that Jesus would raise His flesh and blood?

:yup:

Yes, I agree!

 

[ShellKell]

gradstud35;2609579]
If you think about it, who suffered more in the Bible than Mary?

Jesus suffered more than anyone. He bore the weight of every sin on his shoulders.

So the question I have for you, what is your proof that He would let Her endure death?

I think that if Mary had been assumed to Heaven God would have let us know through His Word. God wouldn’t leave something like that to question. He thought it important to tell us of Enoch and Elisha’s ascension, why would he leave Mary’s out of his word.

 

[August_Ambrose]

Three persons being the one God??? :nope: The spirit is present, and descends upon Jesus, sure. But John and many others were also present, doesn’t mean they were one or were God.

And the spirit is nowhere in scripture implied to be both a distinct person* and *actually God.

The Blessed Trinity is part of our rich tradition developed before the bible was written

 

[August_Ambrose]

No one has ever suggested that all of those were siblings; just James, Josas, Judas, Simon.

Lets get serious, we are all brothers of Jesus and Mary, we share the same body and blood, we all have the same parents and the same DNA!!!

 

[August_Ambrose]

Realcatholicgk:
One point which I wish to emphyse at this time is that the Bible is an insprational book for our understanding the message of God, not to argue about some point that’s really not important, does this bring us closer to God?

 

[August_Ambrose]

Thanks JA4T1T,
:extrahappy: I needed that laugh! freesmileys.org/smileys/signs115.gif Asking a Catholic if he thought Martin Luther, John Calvin,and Huldreich Zwingli were infallible and incapable of erring in their beliefs. That is like asking a Sola Scriptura Protestant if the Pope is infallible and incapable of erring in his beliefs? Do “you” personally think any of them were infallible and incapable of erring in their beliefs? I can honestly say I think that all four of them: Martin Luther, John Calvin, Huldreich Zwingli, and the Pope are all fallible and capable of erring in their personal beliefs.

Off Topic: Why did you go and “restart” this thread that was dead for almost a year? freesmileys.org/smileys/angry019.gif

sour losers, I said it, you don’t have to.

 

[guanophore]

The Roman Catholic has a rich history of living faith called tradition and the assurance of the truth through the Holy Spirit spoken through our Holy Father, the Pontiiff.

This is true, but it is also true that the Catholic Church is not Roman, and that the Roman Rite had not yet developed a the time of the Assumption.

 

[guanophore]

I think that if Mary had been assumed to Heaven God would have let us know through His Word. God wouldn’t leave something like that to question. He thought it important to tell us of Enoch and Elisha’s ascension, why would he leave Mary’s out of his word.

He did! That is why it was revealed to the Church. It is only left to question by those who reject the Apostolic Teaching. Your statement seems to assume that the only Word is the written. The Bible was never intended to include everything. Not only that, Mary is not “left out of his word”. Sometimes you miss stuff, though when you read with anti-catholic blinders.

 

[Good_Fella]

I think that if Mary had been assumed to Heaven God would have let us know through His Word. God wouldn’t leave something like that to question. He thought it important to tell us of Enoch and Elisha’s ascension, why would he leave Mary’s out of his word.

By reading the Scriptures, we can see why the Assumption must have occurred. The event isn’t explicitly recorded because the apostles never witnessed it first hand as they did the resurrection of Jesus when he appeared to them after he had risen from the dead. The apostles had only an empty tomb before them when they made that discovery. But for some reason they were inspired not to record it in the Scriptures.

Speaking of the Assumption, the Blessed Virgin Mary said to St. Bridget of Sweden when she appeared to her:

“That my Assumption was not known to many persons was the will of God, my Son, in order that faith in his Ascension might first of all be firmly established in the hearts of men, for they were not prepared to believe in His Ascension, especially if my Assumption was announced in the beginning.”

With the eternal God a thousand years is like a day, a day is like a thousand years. He chose to explicitly reveal this truth in time through the medium of Sacred Tradition. The deposit of faith does not consist of only Sacred Scripture. One cannot even hope to receive the fullness of God’s revelation if his beliefs rest on only one half of that deposit of faith. Paul tells Timothy that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, for the Church has complete possession of the deposit of faith and apostolic authority to teach and define dogmas.

PAX :harp: