CHALLENGING mary's assumption

[ShellKell]

It appears you did whatever it was you missed.

:yup:

Here is what you posted Good Fella
“By reading the Scriptures, we can see why the Assumption must have occurred”.

“But for some reason they were inspired not to record it in the Scriptures”.

First of all you say that by reading the Scriptures it MUST have occurred, then you follow that up by saying it was NOT recorded in the Scriptures. How can it be obvious from the Scriptures when it’s not even in the Scriptures?

 

[Good_Fella]

Here is what you posted Good Fella
“By reading the Scriptures, we can see why the Assumption must have occurred”.

“But for some reason they were inspired not to record it in the Scriptures”.

First of all you say that by reading the Scriptures it MUST have occurred, then you follow that up by saying it was NOT recorded in the Scriptures. How can it be obvious from the Scriptures when it’s not even in the Scriptures?

There is no record in the gospels of the Assumption having been witnessed by the apostles as the resurrection and ascension of Christ was. But the scriptures do implicitly reveal the Assumption as having occurred. Meanwhile the apostles refrained from mentioning their discovery of Mary’s empty tomb in the valley of Josophat.

 

[ShellKell]

There is no record in the gospels of the Assumption having been witnessed by the apostles as the resurrection and ascension of Christ was. But the scriptures do implicitly reveal the Assumption as having occurred. Meanwhile the apostles refrained from mentioning their discovery of Mary’s empty tomb in the valley of Josophat.

Where in the Scriptures is this? Show me and I will take an honest look at it.

 

[Benadam]

Well, scriptures do reveal that heaven is structured by the bonds between persons. That Mary is fully Jesus’ mother in as much as Jesus is a fully human person and that the role of Mary is revealed to the Church and retained in her memory (from which scripture also finds it’s source) can also be easily deduced from what scriptures reveal about the way God has ordered things is powerfull if one approaches this as something possible instead of impossible.

That actually made sense when I wrote it Sorry.

 

[Joero]

Joero, I read the link, and although this is off topic, I must question the veracity of what the priest claims to have actually experienced. In hell the demons are themselves being punished. They have no privilege to delight in torturing human beings. Nor have the demons been granted the authority to torture in God’s name. Hell isn’t God’s torture chamber. What tortures the damned in hell is the realization of the truth in all its constant intensity of how they had offended God. The degree of intensity differs in measure according to which level the souls in hell and purgatory are consigned. If what the priest did experience is true, then I can see the demons torturing the damned souls in hell through verbal accusations that serve as a reminder to the souls of their transgressions. I can picture the demons taking delight in whispering their charges on account of their vanity which persists in hell even among the damned souls as is apparently evident in their disputes with each other. But if the damned souls are tortured by realizing the truth, then there can no longer be any vanity in them unless it takes vanity for one to feel he is being punished.

PAX :harp:

It’s God’s plan, after the fight in heaven betweenl Michael with his angels and Satan with his group, that after the defeat of Satan and his group they would be cast out from heaven ( Rev. 12: 7-8 ). Satan ( of course together with his angels) were thrown into an abyss (Rev. 20: 3 ). This abyss is like a large furnace (Rev. 9: 2 ).and locusts ( figurative representation of demons) tortured people but do not kill and do not harm the vegetation ( Rev. 9: 4-5 ).
Though in this case the demons are torturing alive people, not souls of the dead, unlike the testimony of Fr. Jose Maniyangat that the demons were torturing the damned souls. But even then, they were given power ( Rev. 9: 3 ) by their king ruling over them, Abaddon or Apollyon ( Rev. 9: 11 ). There is a possibility that they can still torture the damned souls, but how would they do it, we don’t know that! ]

 

[Benadam]

I personally think that the pagan mind was not ready to deal with a human mother of a divine person. Since the pagan nations were matriarchal cultures the role of Mary as the archtypical New Woman would cause scandal untill the New Man had become anchored in the pagan mind of those times. To make Mary distinguishable from the pagan maternal archetypes, who in the mind of a pagan,possessed what was considered divine creative power, the Faith had to be given the time to reform the human family into a trully patriarchal society that recognized fathers as the generating force of procreation . Not that Mary’s role is left hidden but not stressed so as to avoid scandal.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Where in the Scriptures is this? Show me and I will take an honest look at it.

Revelation 12.

 

[ShellKell]

Revelation 12.

Please show which Scripture points to her assumption.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great sign in the heavens, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head,
Rev 12:2 and having a babe in womb, she cries, being in travail, having been distressed to bear.
Rev 12:3 And another sign was seen in the heavens. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads!
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them onto the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman being about to bear, so that when she bears he might devour her child.
Rev 12:5 And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, so that they might nourish her there a thousand, two hundred and sixty days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels warred,
Rev 12:8 but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul until death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and in the sea! For the Devil came down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a little time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who bore the man child .
Rev 12:14 And two wings of a great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the serpent’s face.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water like a flood after the woman, so that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman. And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Joero]

Please show which Scripture points to her assumption.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great sign in the heavens, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head,
Rev 12:2 and having a babe in womb, she cries, being in travail, having been distressed to bear.
Rev 12:3 And another sign was seen in the heavens. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads!
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them onto the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman being about to bear, so that when she bears he might devour her child.
Rev 12:5 And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, so that they might nourish her there a thousand, two hundred and sixty days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels warred,
Rev 12:8 but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul until death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and in the sea! For the Devil came down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a little time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who bore the man child .
Rev 12:14 And two wings of a great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the serpent’s face.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water like a flood after the woman, so that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman. And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Benadam]

Please show which Scripture points to her assumption.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great sign in the heavens, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head,

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Please show which Scripture points to her assumption.

You’re aware that when Revelation was written there were no chapter divisions?

Start with Ch 11:19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the** ark of His covenant appeared in His temple**, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great sign in the heavens,** a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head, **
Rev 12:2 and having a babe in womb, she cries, being in travail, having been distressed to bear.
Rev 12:3 And another sign was seen in the heavens. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads!
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them onto the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman being about to bear, so that when she bears he might devour her child.
Rev 12:5 **And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. **And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

The “woman” John sees in Heaven is Mary, the male child she bore was God Incarnate, Jesus Christ. Catholics believe she is the Ark of the New Covenant, and here’s a little bit of the reasoning behind that belief:

In Exodus 20 Moses is given the Ten Commandments. In chapters 25 through 30 the Lord gives Moses a detailed plan for the construction of the ark, the special container which would carry the Commandments. The surprising thing is that five chapters later, staring in chapter 35 and continuing to chapter 40, Moses repeats word for word each of the details of the ark’s construction.

Why? It was a way of emphasizing how crucial it was for the Lord’s exact specifications to be met (Ex. 25:9, 39:42-43). God wanted the ark to be as perfect and unblemished as humanly possible so it would be worthy of the honor of bearing the written Word of God. How much more so would God want Mary, the ark of the new covenant, to be perfect and unblemished since she would carry within her womb the Word of God in flesh.

When the ark was completed, “the cloud covered the meeting tent and the glory of the Lord filled the dwelling. Moses could not enter the meeting tent, because the cloud settled down upon it and the glory of the Lord filled the dwelling” (Ex. 40:34-38). Compare this with the words of Gabriel to Mary in Luke 1:35.

There’s another striking foreshadowing of Mary as the new ark of the covenant in 2 Samuel 6. The Israelites had lost the ark in a battle with their enemies, the Philistines, and had recently recaptured it. King David sees the ark being brought to him and, in his joy and awe, says “Who am I that the ark of the Lord should come to me?” (1 Sam. 6:9).

Compare this with Elizabeth’s nearly identical words in Luke 1:43. Just as David leapt for joy before the ark when it was brought into Jerusalem (2 Sam. 6:14-16), so John the Baptist leapt for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary, the ark of the new covenant, came into her presence (Luke 1:44). John’s leap was for precisely the same reason as David’s–not primarily because of the ark itself, but because of what the ark contained, the Word of God.

Another parallel may be found in 2 Samuel 6:10-12 where we read that David ordered the ark diverted up into the hill country of Judea to remain with the household of Obededom for three months. This parallels the three-month visit Mary made at Elizabeth’s home in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39-45, 65). While the ark remained with Obededom it “blessed his household.” This is an Old Testament way of saying the fertility of women, crops, and livestock was increased. Notice that God worked this same miracle for Elizabeth and Zachariah in their old age as a prelude to the greater miracle he would work in Mary. Source

 

[Benadam]

You’re aware that when Revelation was written there were no chapter divisions?

Start with Ch 11:19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the** ark of His covenant appeared in His temple**, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great sign in the heavens,** a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head, **
Rev 12:2 and having a babe in womb, she cries, being in travail, having been distressed to bear.
Rev 12:3 And another sign was seen in the heavens. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads!
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them onto the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman being about to bear, so that when she bears he might devour her child.
Rev 12:5 **And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. **And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

The “woman” John sees in Heaven is Mary, the male child she bore was God Incarnate, Jesus Christ. Catholics believe she is the Ark of the New Covenant, and here’s a little bit of the reasoning behind that belief:
In Exodus 20 Moses is given the Ten Commandments. In chapters 25 through 30 the Lord gives Moses a detailed plan for the construction of the ark, the special container which would carry the Commandments. The surprising thing is that five chapters later, staring in chapter 35 and continuing to chapter 40, Moses repeats word for word each of the details of the ark’s construction.

Why? It was a way of emphasizing how crucial it was for the Lord’s exact specifications to be met (Ex. 25:9, 39:42-43). God wanted the ark to be as perfect and unblemished as humanly possible so it would be worthy of the honor of bearing the written Word of God. How much more so would God want Mary, the ark of the new covenant, to be perfect and unblemished since she would carry within her womb the Word of God in flesh.

When the ark was completed, “the cloud covered the meeting tent and the glory of the Lord filled the dwelling. Moses could not enter the meeting tent, because the cloud settled down upon it and the glory of the Lord filled the dwelling” (Ex. 40:34-38). Compare this with the words of Gabriel to Mary in Luke 1:35.

There’s another striking foreshadowing of Mary as the new ark of the covenant in 2 Samuel 6. The Israelites had lost the ark in a battle with their enemies, the Philistines, and had recently recaptured it. King David sees the ark being brought to him and, in his joy and awe, says “Who am I that the ark of the Lord should come to me?” (1 Sam. 6:9).

Compare this with Elizabeth’s nearly identical words in Luke 1:43. Just as David leapt for joy before the ark when it was brought into Jerusalem (2 Sam. 6:14-16), so John the Baptist leapt for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary, the ark of the new covenant, came into her presence (Luke 1:44). John’s leap was for precisely the same reason as David’s–not primarily because of the ark itself, but because of what the ark contained, the Word of God.

Another parallel may be found in 2 Samuel 6:10-12 where we read that David ordered the ark diverted up into the hill country of Judea to remain with the household of Obededom for three months. This parallels the three-month visit Mary made at Elizabeth’s home in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39-45, 65). While the ark remained with Obededom it “blessed his household.” This is an Old Testament way of saying the fertility of women, crops, and livestock was increased. Notice that God worked this same miracle for Elizabeth and Zachariah in their old age as a prelude to the greater miracle he would work in Mary. Source

astounding parallels that can only be denied if one has closed their mind to even the possibility that Our Blessed Mother is the second Eve helpmeet of the second Adam.

 

[guanophore]

I just finished another one of Pope Benedicts XVI’s books. He talks about how the whole church is Roman Catholic – every rite that is united under Rome is Roman Catholic.

No. Unity with Rome does not make the Rites “Roman”.

An interesting historical note is that the term Roman Catholic originally started as a derogatory pejorative in Scotland in the 19th century amongst the followers in the tradition of Calvin and Zwingli. We now embrace the term. It’s funny how the Church has the way to absorb even the very worst and make it hers.

The Church has been doing this since the beginning. This is one of the reasons she is disparaged as being “pagan”. First she absorbed the converts from paganism, then she took over the pagan temples, and the pagan holidays, and baptized them, and made them Christian. Greater is the power in us than what is in the world.

 

[guanophore]

No, you are wrong.

YOu don’t think anyone asked Mary to pray for them? Do you think she did not have a veyr good prayer life?

Your church teaches that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven…not just her soul.

Do you think a persons prayers are less effective if the are in their resurrected body?

If you can provide evidence of someone believing this theory of the assumption from the first few centuries of church history I would like to take a look at it.

I don’t think you really do. From what I can read of your posts, you are approaching this with a disbelieving attitude. Then there is your username.

The fact that devotion to Mary was practiced from the time of the earliest liturgies demonstrates that the Church asked for Mary’s intercession. They believed that her Divine Son thought it unnecessary for her body, from which His was formed, should undergo corruption.

Theotokos has nothing to do with Mary’s assumption though, does it?

Yes, it does. It is the reason He found her too worthy to decay.

 

[Joero]

Yes, it does. It is the reason He found her too worthy to decay.

guan, do you mean that Mary’s body had decomposed?

 

[Benadam]

guan, do you mean that Mary’s body had decomposed?

I think guan is saying that to Jesus the maternal care Mary gifted Him with and was so much a part of who He is, made Mary much too valuable to just perish. That Jesus chose not to allow.

 

[atheist1]

YOu don’t think anyone asked Mary to pray for them? Do you think she did not have a veyr good prayer life?

This has nothing to do with Mary’s assumption…not one thing.

Do you think a persons prayers are less effective if the are in their resurrected body?

You seriously can’t be asking me, an atheist, about the efficacy of prayer?

I don’t think you really do. From what I can read of your posts, you are approaching this with a disbelieving attitude. Then there is your username.

Yes, I am a non-believer. However, I was once a catholic and am still quasi-interested in certain things pertaining to the church.

The fact that devotion to Mary was practiced from the time of the earliest liturgies demonstrates that the Church asked for Mary’s intercession.

Yes, but it in no way follows that they believed in Mary was assumed BODY and soul into heaven.

They believed that her Divine Son thought it unnecessary for her body, from which His was formed, should undergo corruption.

Maybe, but there isn’t any evidence of this belief until around 400.

 

[Axion]

The belief of Early Christians in Mary’s Assumption is signalled in two important ways:

1. Where surviving documentation of Mary’s Assumption appears in the record, it is unchallenged. Christians of the early period hotly debated the smallest of innovations. So how would they have allowed a massive alleged invention like Mary’s Assumption to enter the Christian calendar without a murmur? Answer. They wouldn’t. The fact that there was no 4th Century row about the Assumption thereby provides the strongest evidence that the Assumption of Mary is an ancient Christian teaching which was not disputed.
2. No-one ever claimed to have physical relics of the Virgin Mary. In an age when possession of the relics of even a minor saint could bring untold wealth and fame to a church or other location, not one place claimed to have the body, or as much as a little finger of Mary. Again There can only be one reason for this - the same reason there are no relics of Jesus - everyone knew that Mary had been taken bodily into heaven, and that any claim to possess a relic MUST be fraudulent.

 

[agangbern]

Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, There are some of those here who will not have a taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” bible.cc/matthew/16-28.htm

Who may not taste death? Here are some:

1 John 2:17, “The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever”.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:17

John 5:24, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, whoever hears what I say and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged, but has passed from death to life.
bible.cc/john/5-24.htm

John 8:51, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
bible.cc/john/8-51.htm

Did Mary qualify to any of those mentioned above? Yes, consider the following:

Luke 1:38, "Then Mary said, “Truly I am the Lord’s servant. Let everything you have said happen to me.” Then the angel left her. bible.cc/luke/1-38.htm

Luke 1:30, “And the angel said to her, Have no fear, Mary, for you have God’s approval.” bible.cc/luke/1-30.htm

 

[Axion]

Thanks for those excellent bible verses.