CHALLENGING mary's assumption

[Joero]

Yes, I am a non-believer. However, I was once a catholic and am still quasi-interested in certain things pertaining to the church.

When did you cease to be a catholic and became an atheist? Did the verses of scriptures part of your disbelief, conflicting the teaching of the catholic church? What are these verses of scripture?

Maybe, but there isn’t any evidence of this belief until around 400.

You, maybe, are right though but the Holy Spirit guided the church for which the development of knowledge continues until at present.

 

[Hercules253]

There are a lot of threads to read so forgive if I bring up the same questions.

I understand that assumptions/ascensions are possible as in Enoch’s, Elijah’s and Jesus so it would make sense that it can already happen but it doesn’t mean that it is proof that it happened to Mary. The reason why we are confident that it happened to Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus is because the Word of God states that and also because there were witnesses. Unfortunately that is not the case for Mary.

We know that a possibility of why it wasn’t mentioned in the Bible was because Mary was still alive. Ok that makes sense. She couldn’t have been alive more than 100AD because she was about as early as 15 when she gave birth to Jesus.

However, from 100AD to 130 AD (Mary could not have lived longer than this), we have the early church fathers such as Irenaeus and Ignatius (who got their info from Polycarp who was a direct disciple from Apostle John, who was entrusted by Jesus to take care of Mary meaning he would know about more about Mary than the other apostles) who wrote about Mary. This is what they mention:

• She was a real person that existed
  -She was a holy virgin that gave birth to Jesus, the Son of God, the God of the living
  -unlike Eve, she was obedient and faithful
  -She was a practicing Jew and was married to Joseph
  -She was pure

But this is the same claims identical to what the Bible makes. Nothing new.

My question is why did they leave out the coronation and assumption? for the first 400 years was like this. The fact is that they already wrote about Mary but why couldn’t they spend an extra 10 seconds to write that down if it was such an undeniable truth? Was it on purpose? I mean, the assumption and coronation is a big event here and also supernatural and rare which identifies Mary as a holy queen.

Its equivalent to writing everything about Jesus but leaving the resurrection and ascension out.

It seems to be more of a theological opinion from men than actual concrete fact that she assumed.

Someone?

 

[JustaServant]

You speak as a product of the Enlightenment. In the ancient world most information was recieved orally. But here are a few written:

If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one…Had she been martyred according to what is written: ‘Thine own soul a sword shall pierce’, then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).

“[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones…” Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4 (inter A.D. 575-593).

“As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.” Modestus of Jerusalem, Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae (PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634).

“It was fitting …that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory …should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God.” Theoteknos of Livias, Homily on the Assumption (ante A.D. 650).

“You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life.” Germanus of Constantinople, Sermon I (PG 98,346), (ante A.D. 733).

“St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.” John of Damascene, PG (96:1) (A.D. 747-751).

“It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God’s Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God.” John of Damascene, Dormition of Mary (PG 96,741), (ante A.D. 749).

“Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from herself.” Gregorian Sacramentary, Veneranda (ante A.D. 795).

“[A]n effable mystery all the more worthy of praise as the Virgin’s Assumption is something unique among men.” Gallican Sacramentary, from Munificentis simus Deus (8th Century).

“God, the King of the universe, has granted you favors that surpass nature. As he kept you virgin in childbirth, thus he kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb.” Byzantine Liturgy, from Munificentis simus Deus (8th Century).

“[T]he virgin is up to now immortal, as He who lived, translated her into the place of reception.” Timotheus of Jerusalem (8th Century).

 

[Hercules253]

Yeah but that’s up to 700 years later…

I’m wondering why the EVERY single early church fathers for the first 400 years omitted the ascension and coronation in all their works. Don’t you think it was at least worthy to be written down?

I mean, why write something about Mary at all if you’re going to include everything else except her ascension and coronation? That’s a pretty Big Deal there. That doesn’t make any sense. Why not do the same for Jesus and not write anything down for the first 200 years and pass everything orally?

What if every biography of President Lincoln for the first 100 years AFTER he died only included his childhood, family life, early adult years but didn’t include his presidency and assassination? That would be very questionable.

So who witnessed her coronation and ascension?

 

[JesusILove]

sorry guys for being a little “upfront”, but i am a Protestant attending a catholic school. i hear that catholics teach that “mary assended body and soul to heaven before she died”.

hmmmm, where do catholics get this idea from? i mean, as far as i am concerned, the Bible never mentions this. and, isnt that the only source of christian knowledge?

at the moment, i totally disagree with this teaching. but, no one at school has been able to argue their beliefs to me (they all thought it was taught in the bible). please, i am open to debate, i want to know the reasons why catholics believe this so that i am not simply blindly denying this teaching.

There is negative historical evidence for Mary’s assumption. In the early church, people gathered the relics of all the early saints. They were able to find everyones relics (The Apostles, early church fathers, martyr’s, etc.), except Mary. Where’s Mary? Wouldn’t her relics be the most treasured? The only conclusion is that there are no relics, and that she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven.

Martin Luther did believe in the Assumption, and that was one of the Marian feasts the Lutheran Church kept. But now it is called St Mary, Mother of Our Lord. Why? Because of the influence of mainstream evangelical protestantism has had on the Lutheran Church. There is a movement though, to bring it back to it’s roots.

 

[jlhargus]

sorry guys for being a little “upfront”, but i am a Protestant attending a catholic school. i hear that catholics teach that “mary assended body and soul to heaven before she died”.

hmmmm, where do catholics get this idea from? i mean, as far as i am concerned, the Bible never mentions this. and, isnt that the only source of christian knowledge?

at the moment, i totally disagree with this teaching. but, no one at school has been able to argue their beliefs to me (they all thought it was taught in the bible). please, i am open to debate, i want to know the reasons why catholics believe this so that i am not simply blindly denying this teaching.

The Church teaches Mary was ASSUMED into heaven by our Lord. She did not ASCEND as some mistakenly think. Only Christ could ascend of his own power into heaven, no one else. Mary being assumed, body and soul, by our Lord, into heaven is not unique Enoch and Elijah were taken into heaven also. The assumption is not explicit but is implicit in scripture, just as the Trinity is implicit. Apostolic Tradition and Scripture go hand and hand as the authority in the Church’s discernment of the assumption. The Church as well as both Apostolic Tradition and Scripture have the Holy Spirit as there source. 2Thes2:14 Whereunto he called you by OUR GOSPEL, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and HOLD THE TRADITIONS which YE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT, whether BY WORD, OR our EPISTLE.

REV 11:19 And THE TEMPLE OF GOD WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN and THERE WAS SEEN in his temple THE ARK of his testament and there were lightnings and voices and thunderings and an earthquake and great hail REV 12:1 And THERE APPEARED A GREAT WONDER in heaven A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN and the MOON UNDER HER FEET and UPON HER HEAD A CROWN OF TWELVE STARS 2 And she being with child cried travailing in birth and pained to be delivered] [Mary’s body is the Ark of the New Covenant, we see the Ark is in heaven, she is clothed, the moon under her feet and she has a crown on her head. Her glorified physical body is described, from head to toe.

We are told in the book of Hebrews what the ark of the old covenant contained, [Hb9:4 … the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, WHEREIN WAS the golden pot that had MANNA, and AARON’S ROD that budded, and the TABLES OF THE CONVENANT;]

[Ex25:8 And let them MAKE ME A SANCTUARY; THAT I MAY DWELL AMONG THEM. 9 ACCORDING TO ALL that I SHEW THEE, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it. 10 Have them MAKE A CHEST OF ACACIA WOOD—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high. 11 OVERLAY IT WITH PURE GOLD, BOTH INSIDE AND OUT, and make a gold molding around it. Ex25:40 See that you make them according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.]

If the Lord wanted the ark of the old covenant, made by hands, made to exact pattern and specific detail, from acacia wood and covered inside and out with PURE GOLD, that he may dwell among us. How much more would he cover the flesh, body and soul, of the living ark of the new covenant, not made by hands, with the purity of the Holy Spirit inside and out, THAT HE MAY DWELL AMONG US.

Mary the ark of the new covenant, wherein was; the MANNA=CHRIST, TRUE BREAD OF LIFE, AARON’S ROD=CHRIST, TRUE HIGH PRIEST, TEN COMMANDMENTS=CHRIST, TRUE WORD OF GOD. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant contained the realities, not just symbols as the ark made by hands contained. Mary is the reality and fulfillment of the type and symbol, which the OT Ark represented.

2Kgs2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and ELIJAH WENT UP by a whirlwind INTO HEAVEN.

HB 11:5 BY FAITH ENOCH WAS TRANSLATED THAT HE SHOULD NOT SEE DEATH and was not found because God had translated him for before his translation HE HAD THIS TESTIMONY THAT HE PLEASED GOD

LK 1:45 And BLESSED IS SHE THAT BELIEVED for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord LK 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden for behold FROM HENCEFORTH ALL GENERATIONS SAHLL CALL ME BLESSED LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her Fear not MARY for THOU HAST FOUND FAVOUR WITH GOD [Mary was blessed, believed and pleased God, just as Elijah and Enoch.]

MT 27:50 Jesus when he had cried again with a loud voice yielded up the ghost 51 And behold the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom and the earth did quake and the rocks rent 52 And the graves were opened and many BODIES OF THE SAINTS The saints which slept AROSE 53 And came OUT OF the GRAVES AFTER HIS RESURRECTION and went into the holy city and APPEARED UNTO MANY **

 

[jlhargus]

MARY ARK OF THE NEW COVENANT

Hb9:4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ARK CONTAINED the gold jar of MANNA, AARON’S STAFF that had budded, and the stone TABLETS OF THE COVENANT.

Mary the living ark would contain, in her womb, the real living Word of God, CHRIST, the real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols as the ark made by hands contained, but the actual realities. As our Lord says in Ex25:22 THERE, ABOVE THE COVER BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIM THAT ARE OVER THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, I WILL MEET WITH YOU AND GIVE YOU ALL MY COMMANDS FOR THE ISRAELITES.

2 MCABS 2:5 And when Jeremy came thither he found an hollow cave wherein he laid the tabernacle and the ark and the altar of incense and so stopped the door 6 And some of those that followed him came to mark the way but they could not find it 7 Which when Jeremy perceived he blamed them saying As for THAT PLACE IT SHALL BE UNKNOWN UNTILL THE TIME THAT GOD GATHER HIS PEOPLE again TOGETHER AND RECEIVE THEM UNTO MERCY. 8 THEN SHALL THE LORD SHEW THEM THESE THINGS AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHALL APPEAR AND THE CLOUD ALSO as it was shewed under Moses and as when Solomon desired that the place might be honourably sanctified

EX 40:34 Then** a cloud covered the tent of the congregation and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle** 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation because the cloud abode thereon and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle

LK 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her** The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee** therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

2 SAM 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims

LK 1:39 **And Mary arose **in those days **and went **into the hill country with haste **into a city of Juda **

2 SAM 6:9 **And David was afraid **of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her **Fear not Mary **for thou hast found favour with God

2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

LK 1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart

LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears** the babe leaped in my womb for joy **

2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings** he blessed the people in the name of the LORD** of hosts

LK 1:45 And** blessed is she that believed **for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord

2 SAM 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household

LK 1:56 **And Mary abode with her about three months **and returned to her own house

 

[JustaServant]

Yeah but that’s up to 700 years later…

I’m wondering why the EVERY single early church fathers for the first 400 years omitted the ascension and coronation in all their works. Don’t you think it was at least worthy to be written down?

I mean, why write something about Mary at all if you’re going to include everything else except her ascension and coronation? That’s a pretty Big Deal there. That doesn’t make any sense. Why not do the same for Jesus and not write anything down for the first 200 years and pass everything orally?

What if every biography of President Lincoln for the first 100 years AFTER he died only included his childhood, family life, early adult years but didn’t include his presidency and assassination? That would be very questionable.

So who witnessed her coronation and ascension?

The first two quotes are well under five hundred years old. There is also a Gothic Missel which mentions the assumption (not ascension) from around the sixth century.

 

[jlhargus]

Yeah but that’s up to 700 years later… I’m wondering why the EVERY single early church fathers for the first 400 years omitted the ascension and coronation in all their works. Don’t you think it was at least worthy to be written down?

I mean, why write something about Mary at all if you’re going to include everything else except her ascension and coronation? That’s a pretty Big Deal there. That doesn’t make any sense. Why not do the same for Jesus and not write anything down for the first 200 years and pass everything orally? So who witnessed her coronation and ascension?

JL: Actually for almost the first four hundred years we did not have a canon of the NT. It was by Tradition the canon was discerned by the Chruch, around 382 or so.

The scripture themselves testify of Mary’s Queenship. If Mary’s son is the Son of David and King in David’s line, then Mary is Gebirah=Queen Mother in the regenerated spiritual Kingdom of Israel in the line of king David=Kingdom of God. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, UPON THE THRONE OF DAVID, and upon HIS KINGDOM, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even FOR EVER. The zeal of THE LORD of hosts WILL PERFORM THIS.

[Lk 1:31 And, behold, THOU SHALT CONCEIVE in thy womb, AND BRING FORTH A SON, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be CALLED the SON OF THE HIGHEST: and THE LORD GOD SHALL GIVE UNTO HIM THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID: 33 HE WILL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER, his kingdom will have no end.] Jesus is King in the line of David, Mary is Queen Mother, or Gebirah in Hebrew. Queen Mother was an office in the Davidic Kingdom, form Solomon, the son of David, till the last earthly king IN DAVID’S LINE.

1Kgs8:18 And the LORD said unto David my father, Whereas it was in thine heart to build an house unto my name, thou didst well that it was in thine heart. 19 Nevertheless THOU SHALT NOT BUILD THE HOUSE; BUT THY SON thy son THAT shall COME FORTH OUT OF THY LOINS, he SHALL BUILD THE HOUSE UNTO MY NAME. [2Sam 7:13 HE SHALL BUILD A HOUSE for my name and I WILL ESTABLISH the throne of HIS KINGDOM FOR EVER.] Christ the Son of David is building an everlasting spiritual kingdom. Christ builds with living stones, regenerating the old earthly Davidic kingdom, of God, into the new spiritual heavenly kingdom of God.

[Mt19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That YE WHICH have FOLLOWED ME, IN THE REGENERATION when THE SON OF MAN SHALL SIT IN THE THRONE of his glory, YE ALSO SHALL SIT UPON twelve THRONES, JUDGING the twelve tribes of Israel.

Lk22:28 YE are they which HAVE CONTINUED WITH ME IN MY TEMPTATIONS. 29 And I APPOINT UNTO YOU A KINGDOM, AS my Father hath APPOINTED UNTO ME; 30 That YE MAY EAT AND DRINK AT MY TABLE in my kingdom, and SIT ON THRONES JUDGING the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 And the Lord said, Simon, SIMON, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I HAVE PRAYED FOR THEE, that THY FAITH FAIL NOT: and when thou art converted, STRENGTHEN THY BRETHREN.] The kingdom, where we eat and drink at the LORD’s TABLE, we call it MASS today. Peter is First Minister as he is given the keys to that kingdom, Christ the king, holds the keys by right, and delegates his authority with those keys to his First Minister, [Isa 22:19-22 & Mt 16:13-19]. That Kingdom is for all people in all places and all times, therefore Christ is Universal Catholic King and his mother is Universal Catholic Gebirah=Queen in the regenerated spiritual Universal=Catholic Davidic Kingdom. CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

[1Kgs2:19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And THE KING ROSE up TO MEET HER, AND BOWED HIMSELF UNTO HER, and sat down on his throne, AND CAUSED A SEAT TO BE SET FOR THE KING’S MOTHER; and SHE SAT ON HIS RIGHT HAND.] Mk10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

[REV 11:19 And THE TEMPLE OF GOD WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN and THERE WAS SEEN in his temple THE ARK OF HIS TESTAMENT and there were lightnings and voices and thunderings and an earthquake and great hail RV 12:1 And THERE APPEARED A GREAT WONDER in heaven A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN and the MOON UNDER HER FEET and UPON HER HEAD A CROWN OF TWELVE STARS 2 And she being with child cried travailing in birth and pained to be delivered] The woman is a person=Mary and a collective, symbolic of the Church, Old and New Covenant people of God. Twelve stars, universal queen, queen of heaven and earth. [Eph3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,]

[RV 12:5 And SHE BROUGHT FORTH A MAN CHILD who was TO RULE ALL NATIONS with a rod of iron and her child was caught up unto God and to his throne] To rule ALL NATIONS, universal king, the child is a person=Christ and collective, symbolic of the Davidic Kingdom.

Jer 52:1 ZEDIKIAH was twenty-one years old when he became KING, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. HIS MOTHER’S NAME was HAMUTAL, daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.

2 Kgs 21:1 MANASSEH was twelve years old when he became KING, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years. HIS MOTHER’S NAME was HEPHZIBAH.

2 Kgs 8:26 Two and twenty years old was AHAZIAH when he began to reign; and HE REIGNED one year in Jerusalem. And HIS MOTHER’S NAME WAS ATHALIAH, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.
CONTINUED:

Jer 13:18 Say to THE KING and to THE QUEEN MOTHER, Come down from YOUR THRONES, for your glorious CROWNS will fall from your heads. 19 The cities in the Negev will be shut up, and there will be no one to open them. All Judah will be carried into exile, carried completely away.

1Kgs8:20 And THE LORD HATH PERFORMED HIS WORD that he spake, and I AM RISEN UP in the room of David my father, AND SIT ON THE THRONE OF ISRAEL, AS THE LORD PROMISED, AND have BUILT AN HOUSE FOR the name of THE LORD GOD OF ISRAEL. 21 And I HAVE SET THERE A PLACE FOR THE ARK, wherein is the covenant of the LORD, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.

 

[Hercules253]

We might of had the New Testament until about 400 AD but we certainly had the early church father writings that were in fact written before 400 AD and NONE of them ever mention any assumption…they mention a lot about Mary which is parallel but like I said they omitted the assumption…so far no one has answered this question and you have to admit, that’s very questionable.

The assumption is definitely intrinsic in Scripture so I agree that the Assumption is possible…but that doesn’t necessarily mean that Mary assumed into heaven…
The Trinity can be backed up with evidence from eye witnesses and scriptural proof BUT specifically Mary’s assumption of body and soul cant.

By the ways, lack of evidence is still NOT evidence…just because no one knows what happened to Mary does not automatically mean she assumed body and soul…

do we know what happened to Joseph? Zachariah? Elizabeth? The centurion that Jesus said had the greatest faith? Of course not. So does that mean that they assumed into heaven? Zachariah was sinless so he is qualified to be assumed into Heaven. There are millions of people are missing all the time with no where abouts and that doesn’t mean they assumed into Heaven.

I could use “lack of evidence” the other way around the argument too. There is no evidence before 400AD from early church fathers so does that mean Mary didn’t assume?
See what I mean?

The Eastern Christians believed that Mary died and was buried so they celebrate the Dormition of Mary. But they cant agree where she was buried: Jerusalem, Turkey, or Llanerchymedd…So did she die or not? And who should we believe and what makes Catholics think they have the right answer?? With what concrete evidence and eye witness are they basing this on?

They are basing this on speculation from a few men within Catholic Church 400 years later. Do you know what happened to your great great great great great grandfather 4 centuries ago? No. So does that mean that he assumed in Heaven? See that logic doesn’t work.

I’m not saying that an assumption is impossible or that Mary didn’t assume, I just saying where is the evidence for it? Eyewitnesses? something…

Its better to say “I don’t know but have a good educated guess” than to make stuff up and label it as a fact and look for weak scriptural support to strengthen the argument just because you WANT to make it true.

 

[Nick_in_MB]

The Eastern Christians believed that Mary died and was buried so they celebrate the Dormition of Mary. But they cant agree where she was buried: Jerusalem, Turkey, or Llanerchymedd…So did she die or not? And who should we believe and what makes Catholics think they have the right answer?? With what concrete evidence and eye witness are they basing this on?

Um, because they don’t have a body either.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Theotokos

The Orthodox Church teaches that Mary died a natural death, like any human being; that her soul was received by Christ upon death; and that her body was resurrected on the third day after her repose, at which time she was taken up, bodily only, into heaven. Her tomb was found empty on the third day.

aug.edu/augusta/iconography/dormition.html

The “Dormition of the Virgin Mary” is her “falling asleep” at the end of her time on earth. It is not simply called the “Death of the Virgin” because of a tradition that soon after her soul left her body the two were reunited and taken up to Heaven in what is called the “Assumption.”

 

[Hercules253]

Um, because they don’t have a body either.

ummm…so what’s the point of the coffin if she supposedly didn’t die at all like Catholics say?

And which coffin are you taking about? there’s at least 3. Were all of them empty?

someone is “gravely” mistaken…lol

So if someone were to dig up someone’s grave and it was empty the first and only thing that should come into mind is an assumption?

 

[jlhargus]

The Trinity can be backed up with evidence from eye witnesses and scriptural proof BUT specifically Mary’s assumption of body and soul cant.

JL: What eye witnesses saw the Trinity? If there is scriptural proof for the Trinity, then why all the controversy for two to three hundred years over the Trinity? There is scriptural evidence for the Trinity, but there is scriptural evidence for Mary’s assumption, I agree it is not as strong as the Trinity. Why wasn’t the Trinity mentioned by the ECFs in the first centuries. Why did it take at council to define the Trinity? You would think as important as it is, it would have been a given, yet is wasn’t. The Church is the authority who discerned and defined the Trinity. Just as The Church is the authority who discerned and defined the assumption.

The Eastern Christians believed that Mary died and was buried so they celebrate the Dormition of Mary. But they cant agree where she was buried: Jerusalem, Turkey, or Llanerchymedd…So did she die or not? And who should we believe

JL: There is no Catholic definition saying Mary died or did not die, as a Catholic I may accept either. My personal opinion Mary died first. If the Church were to define she did not die, I would be wrong and submit to those whom Christ set over me to guide me into all truth.

 

[jlhargus]

what makes Catholics think they have the right answer?? With what concrete evidence and eye witness are they basing this on?

JL: The Church is the eye witness she was there from the begining and will be there till the end. [Mt 28:16 THE ELEVEN disciples 18 Jesus spoke to THEM, ALL POWER IS GIVEN TO ME in heaven and in earth 19 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 TEACHING to observe ALL things whatever I have COMMANDED you I AM WITH YOU always even TO THE END.]

Jn 16:13 When THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH comes HE WILL GUIDE YOU into ALL the TRUTH Jn 14:26 the Holy Spirit HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL things and BRING ALL things TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE WHATEVER I HAVE SAID TO YOU.] Christ is speaking to the Apostolic Fellowship, who will be endued with power from on high, by whom the Church will be guided into all truth, not hit and miss truth, and teach all things whatsoever Christ said, through the sacrament of Holy Orders, an unbroken line of successors, by laying on of hands, till the end of the world.

The Bishops of the world in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) make up the Magisterium (that teaching authority sent by Christ Mt28:16-20 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS I AM WITH YOU TILL THE END). Their duty is to teach, sanctify and govern. Teach the Word of God, faith and morals, what we must believe and moral standards. Sanctify by preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments, govern the Church for good order, Jn 17:21 THAT THEY MAY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you that they also may be one in us THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME

The Catholic Church continues steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread and in prayers, ACTS 2:42. The one sent fellowship Christ sent to teach all he commanded, Mt 28:20, as he promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth (not part but all) Jn 16:13. He that hears you hears me, LK 10:16, to those whom Christ send we must listen. If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17. I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead in all truth, not hit and miss truth. to follow those, whom Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught, the Church to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth, 1 TM 3:14.

[Eph3:7 Whereof I was made A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT of the grace of God given unto me BY the effectual working OF HIS POWER. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is the fellowship of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God,]

The Jerusalem Council sent a letter to Antioch, with it decision settling a doctrinal dispute, which said, [Acts15:28 It seemed good to the HOLY SPIRIT and to US not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:] using their authority to bind and loose, Mt16:18. That magisterial teaching authority, sent by Christ, speaks with the authority of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all Christians knew it. That’s why the decision was accepted with JOY and without dispute in Antioch, Acts15.

Paul even checked his teaching with that one fellowship. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.] Even though sent by Christ, Paul realized he could possibly be preaching another gospel, than the Apostolic Fellowship. Paul went by revelation to check his teaching with the teaching of the Apostles’ Fellowship. Those SENT by Christ, to teach ALL NATIONS, ALL Christ commanded, till the end of the age, Mt28:16-20. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide them into ALL TRUTH, Jn16:13. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we would all be one without disagreement. We can see that is not the case.

What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were brought into the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship.] 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR

 

[Hercules253]

JL: What eye witnesses saw the Trinity? If there is scriptural proof for the Trinity, then why all the controversy for two to three hundred years over the Trinity? There is scriptural evidence for the Trinity, but there is scriptural evidence for Mary’s assumption, I agree it is not as strong as the Trinity. Why wasn’t the Trinity mentioned by the ECFs in the first centuries. Why did it take at council to define the Trinity? You would think as important as it is, it would have been a given, yet is wasn’t. The Church is the authority who discerned and defined the Trinity. Just as The Church is the authority who discerned and defined the assumption.

Jesus was worshiped as God, performed miracles as God, prophesied as God. The Holy Spirit also functioned as God. All of this were witnessed and recorded.

If Jesus = God
Holy Spirit = God
The Jesus = Holy Spirit

Jesus, Holy Spirit, God the Father were all present when Jesus was being baptized. Did you forget that?

What scriptural proof tells you that Mary assumed body and soul into Heaven? If you’re talking about Revelation, its ONLY proof that she went to heaven and was crowned. Even that’s debatable. Also no one debated about Mary’s assumption for the first 400 years because there was nothing to debate about it since they never even heard of that idea before and it was completely foreign to them. 400 years later, the debate came up because no one was exactly sure. If it was so evident and absolute then there would’ve never been a discussion. Arguing about who Jesus was can be difficult theologically for the founding fathers because even the apostles were confused and unclear but not for Mary. Its either she assumed or she didn’t. Why would there need to be a debate?

There is no Catholic definition saying Mary died or did not die, as a Catholic I may accept either. My personal opinion Mary died first. If the Church were to define she did not die, I would be wrong and submit to those whom Christ set over me to guide me into all truth.

You completely deviated the argument. Its not about personal opinions or who thinks what. Its whether the belief in her assumption is the absolute truth or not and the basis for that truth. That’s all. I believe she’s in Heaven but did she assume into Heaven body and soul? That I don’t know and I don’t think anyone else exactly knows either. We can only speculate. But to actually label it as a FACT and command everyone to believe its true or else (like Catholics do) is blatantly wrong. Plus you cant consider yourself a true Catholic if you don’t believe that because according to the Munificentissimus Deus, its states anyone who “should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined (i.e. the Assumption), let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith
**
Me:** how do we know Mary assumed body and soul if its not in Scriptures?
**Catholic: **its not sola scriptura, not everything was recorded, and Mary was probably alive then, its a traditional belief
**Me: **Ok, I looked into tradition and traditionally they didn’t mention it for the first 400 years or traditionally practiced it. No evidence, no eye witnesses testimonies oral or written, no sound evidence in apostolic teachings passed down, no divine revelation, nothing to test the validity, nothing!!
Catholic: Well, the Church Fathers 400 years later believed it therefore its true and I trust all their theology 100%, 100% of the time.
Me: Ok sure

 

[LRThunder]

While there might not be strong biblical evidence of Mary’s Assumption, it is not unprecedented.

Remember Elijah? He certainly wasn’t killed, and then taken up to Heaven.

If Elijah was Assumed, why not Mary?

 

[Nick_in_MB]

ummm…so what’s the point of the coffin if she supposedly didn’t die at all like Catholics say?

And which coffin are you taking about? there’s at least 3. Were all of them empty?

I never mentioned a coffin. You said there’s three burial sites, as if that was some claim to say that she wasn’t assumed. But according to them, she rose on the third day and the tomb was found empty, meaning she was assumed.

someone is “gravely” mistaken…lol

Is that a “graven image” reference?

So if someone were to dig up someone’s grave and it was empty the first and only thing that should come into mind is an assumption?

Well, why not?

 

[jlhargus]

Jesus was worshiped as God, performed miracles as God, prophesied as God. The Holy Spirit also functioned as God. All of this were witnessed and recorded.

If Jesus = God
Holy Spirit = God
The Jesus = Holy Spirit

Jesus, Holy Spirit, God the Father were all present when Jesus was being baptized. Did you forget that?

JL: The Apostles did miracles and prophesied also. Paul was even at one point worshipped as a god. So simple I wonder why everyone today does not believe in the Trinity. So why did it take 325 years for it to be defined and cause so much controversy afterward? Why was the Emperor Constantine baptized by an Arian bishop and why did his son’s after him try to force the pope to accept Arianism? If it was so simple? It is simple for you and us now because we accept the Tradition and authority as it was defined by the pillar and ground of truth, the Church of God. Just as you accept your NT canon defined on the authority of the Catholic Church.

What scriptural proof tells you that Mary assumed body and soul into Heaven? If you’re talking about Revelation, its ONLY proof that she went to heaven and was crowned. Even that’s debatable. Also no one debated about Mary’s assumption for the first 400 years because there was nothing to debate about it since they never even heard of that idea before and it was completely foreign to them. 400 years later, the debate came up because no one was exactly sure. If it was so evident and absolute then there would’ve never been a discussion. Arguing about who Jesus was can be difficult theologically for the founding fathers because even the apostles were confused and unclear but not for Mary. Its either she assumed or she didn’t. Why would there need to be a debate?

JL: I have posted my scripture evidence. Give me ECFs talking about the Father Son and Holy Spirit as one God in three persons as a Trinity before 325AD

You completely deviated the argument. Its not about personal opinions or who thinks what. Its whether the belief in her assumption is the absolute truth or not and the basis for that truth. That’s all.

The following is what you asked and my answer follows that. How have I deviated the argument, you asked the question.

Originally Posted by Hercules253 The Eastern Christians believed that Mary died and was buried so they celebrate the Dormition of Mary. But they cant agree where she was buried: Jerusalem, Turkey, or Llanerchymedd…So did she die or not? And who should we believe

My answer to YOUR QUESTION: JL: There is no Catholic definition saying Mary died or did not die, as a Catholic I may accept either. My personal opinion Mary died first. If the Church were to define she did not die, I would be wrong and submit to those whom Christ set over me to guide me into all truth.

 

[jlhargus]

Plus you cant consider yourself a true Catholic if you don’t believe that because according to the Munificentissimus Deus, its states anyone who “should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined (i.e. the Assumption), let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic FaithMe: how do we know Mary assumed body and soul if its not in Scriptures?

You are right you can’t consider yourself a Catholic, unless you are ignorant thru no fault of you own. Who did Christ send to teach with his authority? Who does Paul call the pillar and ground of truth? If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17

JL: The Church is the eye witness she was there from the begining and will be there till the end. [Mt 28:16 THE ELEVEN disciples 18 Jesus spoke to THEM, ALL POWER IS GIVEN TO ME in heaven and in earth 19 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 TEACHING to observe ALL things whatever I have COMMANDED you I AM WITH YOU always even TO THE END.]

Jn 16:13 When THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH comes HE WILL GUIDE YOU into ALL the TRUTH Jn 14:26 the Holy Spirit HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL things and BRING ALL things TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE WHATEVER I HAVE SAID TO YOU.] Christ is speaking to the Apostolic Fellowship, who will be endued with power from on high, by whom the Church will be guided into all truth, not hit and miss truth, and teach all things whatsoever Christ said, through the sacrament of Holy Orders, an unbroken line of successors, by laying on of hands, till the end of the world.

The Bishops of the world in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) make up the Magisterium (that teaching authority sent by Christ Mt28:16-20 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS I AM WITH YOU TILL THE END). Their duty is to teach, sanctify and govern. Teach the Word of God, faith and morals, what we must believe and moral standards. Sanctify by preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments, govern the Church for good order, Jn 17:21 THAT THEY MAY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you that they also may be one in us THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME

The Catholic Church continues steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread and in prayers, ACTS 2:42. The one sent fellowship Christ sent to teach all he commanded, Mt 28:20, as he promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth (not part but all) Jn 16:13. He that hears you hears me, LK 10:16, to those whom Christ send we must listen. If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17. I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead in all truth, not hit and miss truth. to follow those, whom Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught, the Church to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth, 1 TM 3:14.

[Eph3:7 Whereof I was made A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT of the grace of God given unto me BY the effectual working OF HIS POWER. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is the fellowship of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God,]

The Jerusalem Council sent a letter to Antioch, with it decision settling a doctrinal dispute, which said, [Acts15:28 It seemed good to the HOLY SPIRIT and to US not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:] using their authority to bind and loose, Mt16:18. That magisterial teaching authority, sent by Christ, speaks with the authority of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all Christians knew it. That’s why the decision was accepted with JOY and without dispute in Antioch, Acts15.

Paul even checked his teaching with that one fellowship. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.] Even though sent by Christ, Paul realized he could possibly be preaching another gospel, than the Apostolic Fellowship. Paul went by revelation to check his teaching with the teaching of the Apostles’ Fellowship. Those SENT by Christ, to teach ALL NATIONS, ALL Christ commanded, till the end of the age, Mt28:16-20. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide them into ALL TRUTH, Jn16:13. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we would all be one without disagreement. We can see that is not the case.

1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR] This is how I know truth from error. How do you know except by your own opinion.