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Good_Fella
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Mannyfit75
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Well said,.
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Mannyfit75
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Revelation 12:1,5 (RSV) And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; . . . She brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne . . . . .
Pope Benedict XVI
Today, the liturgy reminds us of this consoling truth of faith, while it sings the praises of she who has been crowned with incomparable glory. We read today in the verse from Apocalypse proposed by the Church for our meditation: “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (12: 1).
In this woman, resplendent with light, the Fathers of the Church have recognized Mary. In her triumph the Christian people, pilgrims in history, catch a glimpse of the fulfilment of its longing and a certain sign of its hope.
(Angelus for the Solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, 15 August 2006)
Having thus considered the various historical forms of the dragon, let us now look at the other image: the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, surrounded by 12 stars. This is also a multidimensional image.
Without any doubt, a first meaning is that it is Our Lady, Mary, clothed with the sun, that is, with God, totally; Mary who lives totally in God, surrounded and penetrated by God’s light. Surrounded by the 12 stars, that is, by the 12 tribes of Israel, by the whole People of God, by the whole Communion of Saints; and at her feet, the moon, the image of death and mortality.
Mary has left death behind her; she is totally clothed in life, she is taken up body and soul into God’s glory and thus, placed in glory after overcoming death, she says to us: Take heart, it is love that wins in the end!
The message of my life was: I am the handmaid of God, my life has been a gift of myself to God and my neighbour. And this life of service now arrives in real life. May you too have trust and have the courage to live like this, countering all the threats of the dragon.
This is the first meaning of the woman whom Mary succeeded in being. The “woman clothed with the sun” is the great sign of the victory of love, of the victory of goodness, of the victory of God; a great sign of consolation.
Yet, this woman who suffered, who had to flee, who gave birth with cries of anguish, is also the Church, the pilgrim Church of all times. In all generations she has to give birth to Christ anew, to bring him very painfully into the world, with great suffering. Persecuted in all ages, it is almost as if, pursued by the dragon, she had gone to live in the wilderness.
Pope Benedict XVI
Today, the liturgy reminds us of this consoling truth of faith, while it sings the praises of she who has been crowned with incomparable glory. We read today in the verse from Apocalypse proposed by the Church for our meditation: “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (12: 1).
In this woman, resplendent with light, the Fathers of the Church have recognized Mary. In her triumph the Christian people, pilgrims in history, catch a glimpse of the fulfilment of its longing and a certain sign of its hope.
(Angelus for the Solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, 15 August 2006)
Having thus considered the various historical forms of the dragon, let us now look at the other image: the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, surrounded by 12 stars. This is also a multidimensional image.
Without any doubt, a first meaning is that it is Our Lady, Mary, clothed with the sun, that is, with God, totally; Mary who lives totally in God, surrounded and penetrated by God’s light. Surrounded by the 12 stars, that is, by the 12 tribes of Israel, by the whole People of God, by the whole Communion of Saints; and at her feet, the moon, the image of death and mortality.
Mary has left death behind her; she is totally clothed in life, she is taken up body and soul into God’s glory and thus, placed in glory after overcoming death, she says to us: Take heart, it is love that wins in the end!
The message of my life was: I am the handmaid of God, my life has been a gift of myself to God and my neighbour. And this life of service now arrives in real life. May you too have trust and have the courage to live like this, countering all the threats of the dragon.
This is the first meaning of the woman whom Mary succeeded in being. The “woman clothed with the sun” is the great sign of the victory of love, of the victory of goodness, of the victory of God; a great sign of consolation.
Yet, this woman who suffered, who had to flee, who gave birth with cries of anguish, is also the Church, the pilgrim Church of all times. In all generations she has to give birth to Christ anew, to bring him very painfully into the world, with great suffering. Persecuted in all ages, it is almost as if, pursued by the dragon, she had gone to live in the wilderness.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
Pope John Paul II
The figure of this Church is the woman whom the seer of Patmos contemplated and described in the text of the Apocalypse, which we have just heard in the second reading. In this woman crowned with twelve stars, popular piety throughout the ages has also seen Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Moreover, as St Ambrose recalled and as Lumen Gentium declares, Mary is herself a figure of the Church.
Yes, beloved brothers and sons, Mary—the Mother of God—is a model for the Church and a mother for the redeemed.
(Homily at Aparecida, Brazil, 4 July 1980)
From Mary, who represents the singular “fulfillment” of the biblical “woman” of the Proto-evangelium (cf. Gen 3:15) and of the Book of Revelation (12:1), let us seek also a proper relationship with women and the attitude toward them shown by Jesus of Nazareth himself.
(Letter to Priests For Holy Thursday 1988, 25 March 1988; section 5)
“And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Rv 12:1).
These words of Revelation turn my thoughts to the 80th anniversary of the first apparition of the Virgin Mary to the three young shepherds in Cova da Iria. The message which the Blessed Virgin addressed to humanity on that occasion still resounds with all its prophetic force, inviting everyone to pray insistently, and to commit himself generously to making reparation for his own sins and those of the whole world.
(Letter to the Bishop of Fatima, 12 May 1997)
Mary, glorified in her body, appears today as the star of hope for the Church and for humanity on its way towards the third Christian millennium. Her sublime exaltation does not distance her from her people or from the world’s problems, on the contrary, it enables her to watch effectively over human affairs with that attentive concern with which she obtained the first miracle from Jesus at the wedding in Cana.
Revelation says that the woman clothed with the sun “was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery” (12:2). This calls to mind a text of the Apostle Paul which has fundamental importance for the Christian theology of hope. “We know”, we read in his Letter to the Romans, “that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved” (8:22-24).
As we celebrate her Assumption into heaven in body and soul, we pray to Mary to help the men and women of our time to live in this world with faith and hope, seeking God’s kingdom in all things; may she help believers to be open to the presence and action of the Holy Spirit, the Creator and Renewer Spirit, who can transform hearts; may she enlighten our minds on the destiny that awaits us, the dignity of every person and the nobility of the human body.
Mary, taken up into heaven, show yourself to everyone as Mother of hope! Show yourself to everyone as Queen of the civilization of love!
(Homily on the Solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, 15 August 1998)
According to the divine plan, “a woman clothed with the sun” (Rv 12: 1) came down from heaven to this earth to visit the privileged children of the Father. She speaks to them with a mother’s voice and heart: she asks them to offer themselves as victims of reparation, saying that she was ready to lead them safely to God. And behold, they see a light shining from her maternal hands which penetrates them inwardly, so that they feel immersed in God just as - they explain - a person sees himself in a mirror.
(Homily at the Beatification of Francisco and Jacinto Marto, Shepherds of Fatima, 13 May 2000)
It was not by accident that Saint Gaspar del Bufalo established your Congregation on the Solemnity of the Assumption of Our Lady. For he saw in the glory of the Virgin the wondrous fruit of the sacrifice of her Son on the Cross. Christ’s Redemption marvellously restores humanity to the splendour which was the Creator’s intention from the beginning; and that splendour must be the goal of every plan and project of the Missionaries of the Precious Blood. That is why you must look always to the Woman “clothed with the sun, the moon beneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Rev 12:1). Entrusting you to the loving care of Mary and to the intercession of your Founder, I gladly impart my Apostolic Blessing to the entire Congregation as a pledge of endless mercy in him “who has freed us from our sins by his blood” (Rev 1:5).
(Address to the Missionaries of the Precious Blood, 14 September 2001)
“And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Rv 12: 1-2). St John’s vision shows us that Mary, glorified in Heaven, a Queen with a crown of stars, continues to be the Mother of all men and women, sons and daughters of God and brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ, until the end of the centuries. In the light of divine glory, she contemplates her children, each and every one, in every moment of their lives.
(Letter for the Centenary of the Coronation of Nossa Senhora Aparecida, 17 July 2004)
The figure of this Church is the woman whom the seer of Patmos contemplated and described in the text of the Apocalypse, which we have just heard in the second reading. In this woman crowned with twelve stars, popular piety throughout the ages has also seen Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Moreover, as St Ambrose recalled and as Lumen Gentium declares, Mary is herself a figure of the Church.
Yes, beloved brothers and sons, Mary—the Mother of God—is a model for the Church and a mother for the redeemed.
(Homily at Aparecida, Brazil, 4 July 1980)
From Mary, who represents the singular “fulfillment” of the biblical “woman” of the Proto-evangelium (cf. Gen 3:15) and of the Book of Revelation (12:1), let us seek also a proper relationship with women and the attitude toward them shown by Jesus of Nazareth himself.
(Letter to Priests For Holy Thursday 1988, 25 March 1988; section 5)
“And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Rv 12:1).
These words of Revelation turn my thoughts to the 80th anniversary of the first apparition of the Virgin Mary to the three young shepherds in Cova da Iria. The message which the Blessed Virgin addressed to humanity on that occasion still resounds with all its prophetic force, inviting everyone to pray insistently, and to commit himself generously to making reparation for his own sins and those of the whole world.
(Letter to the Bishop of Fatima, 12 May 1997)
Mary, glorified in her body, appears today as the star of hope for the Church and for humanity on its way towards the third Christian millennium. Her sublime exaltation does not distance her from her people or from the world’s problems, on the contrary, it enables her to watch effectively over human affairs with that attentive concern with which she obtained the first miracle from Jesus at the wedding in Cana.
Revelation says that the woman clothed with the sun “was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery” (12:2). This calls to mind a text of the Apostle Paul which has fundamental importance for the Christian theology of hope. “We know”, we read in his Letter to the Romans, “that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved” (8:22-24).
As we celebrate her Assumption into heaven in body and soul, we pray to Mary to help the men and women of our time to live in this world with faith and hope, seeking God’s kingdom in all things; may she help believers to be open to the presence and action of the Holy Spirit, the Creator and Renewer Spirit, who can transform hearts; may she enlighten our minds on the destiny that awaits us, the dignity of every person and the nobility of the human body.
Mary, taken up into heaven, show yourself to everyone as Mother of hope! Show yourself to everyone as Queen of the civilization of love!
(Homily on the Solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, 15 August 1998)
According to the divine plan, “a woman clothed with the sun” (Rv 12: 1) came down from heaven to this earth to visit the privileged children of the Father. She speaks to them with a mother’s voice and heart: she asks them to offer themselves as victims of reparation, saying that she was ready to lead them safely to God. And behold, they see a light shining from her maternal hands which penetrates them inwardly, so that they feel immersed in God just as - they explain - a person sees himself in a mirror.
(Homily at the Beatification of Francisco and Jacinto Marto, Shepherds of Fatima, 13 May 2000)
It was not by accident that Saint Gaspar del Bufalo established your Congregation on the Solemnity of the Assumption of Our Lady. For he saw in the glory of the Virgin the wondrous fruit of the sacrifice of her Son on the Cross. Christ’s Redemption marvellously restores humanity to the splendour which was the Creator’s intention from the beginning; and that splendour must be the goal of every plan and project of the Missionaries of the Precious Blood. That is why you must look always to the Woman “clothed with the sun, the moon beneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Rev 12:1). Entrusting you to the loving care of Mary and to the intercession of your Founder, I gladly impart my Apostolic Blessing to the entire Congregation as a pledge of endless mercy in him “who has freed us from our sins by his blood” (Rev 1:5).
(Address to the Missionaries of the Precious Blood, 14 September 2001)
“And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Rv 12: 1-2). St John’s vision shows us that Mary, glorified in Heaven, a Queen with a crown of stars, continues to be the Mother of all men and women, sons and daughters of God and brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ, until the end of the centuries. In the light of divine glory, she contemplates her children, each and every one, in every moment of their lives.
(Letter for the Centenary of the Coronation of Nossa Senhora Aparecida, 17 July 2004)
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Mannyfit75
Guest
This year the Pope joins you in this act of devotion and love for the Most Holy Virgin, the glorious woman of the Book of Revelation, crowned with twelve stars (cf. Rev 12,1).
(Introduction to the Torchlight Procession at Lourdes on the 150th Anniversary of the Promulgation of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception, 14 August 2004)
Pope St. Pius X
- Leaving aside charity towards God, who can contemplate the Immaculate Virgin without feeling moved to fulfill that precept which Christ called peculiarly His own, namely that of loving one another as He loved us? “A great sign,” thus the Apostle St. John describes a vision divinely sent him, appears in the heavens: “A woman clothed with the sun, and with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars upon her head” (Apoc. xii., 1). Everyone knows that this woman signified the Virgin Mary, the stainless one who brought forth our Head. The Apostle continues: “And, being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered” (Apoc. xii., 2). John therefore saw the Most Holy Mother of God already in eternal happiness, yet travailing in a mysterious childbirth. What birth was it? Surely it was the birth of us who, still in exile, are yet to be generated to the perfect charity of God, and to eternal happiness. And the birth pains show the love and desire with which the Virgin from heaven above watches over us, and strives with unwearying prayer to bring about the fulfillment of the number of the elect.
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Good_Fella
Guest
Thanks for all the time and effort, Manny. 
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: Good question, but notice it doesn’t explain HOW the ark got into heaven either, yet John saw that ark in heaven. Mary’s BODY is the living ark, which contained in the womb of her BODY, the actual presents of God, the actual living Word of God, CHRIST, the actual living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the actual living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols, as the OT ark, made by hands contained, but the actual realities. That ARK Mary’s BODY is seen in heaven, so she is body and soul in heaven.
[Rev says, And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:, Rv11:19, 12:1] In all bibles today we have chapters and verses. They are not part of scripture they were added to locate topics more quickly. So there is no break between Rv 11:19 & 12:1.
JL: You are correct one does not have to be assumed body and soul to be in heaven. The overwhelming majority in heaven are disembodied souls or spirits till the resurrection of their bodies when Christ returns.
JL: It is very possible Mary died a natural death and was assumed body and soul into heaven, I believe she did die. My understanding is there is no defined teaching one way or the other, I could be wrong.
P
Peter_Dawson
Guest
Hi, friend.
Note well: Everything added by me in this thread is my opinion. Even quotations and cites are my opinion, because my use of the third party material may not be correct.
Who is currently with God, and who is not, is a tricky question. We have to be careful. God does not view time the way we do.
We do, indeed, see Elijah being taken alive to Heaven. 2 Kings 2:11.
And, consistently, we see Elijah talking to Christ in the Transfiguration, during Jesus’ life.
But note well that Jude 9 has the Archangel Michael arguing with the Devil over the dead body of Moses…
**9 Yet the archangel Michael, when he argued with the devil in a dispute over the body of Moses, did not venture to pronounce a reviling judgment 8 upon him but said, “May the Lord rebuke you!” **
…and Moses talked with Christ at the time of the Transfiguration, too…
28 About eight days after he said this, he took Peter, John, and James and went up the mountain to pray.
29 While he was praying his face changed in appearance and his clothing became dazzling white.
30 And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah,… Luke 9:28-30.
So, the Gospels give Moses precisely the same treatment as Elijah.
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: Yes Peter, I have read that there is a Jewish tradition that Moses was taken up bodily. I don’t think it was a Jewish doctrine, maybe just speculation. Also in my opinion only, it does seem possible.
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Good_Fella
Guest
Hi, Peter. Agreed, Mary was redeemed at the first instant of her immaculate conception in view of the merits of Christ’s Passion and Death, although historically she was born before she gave birth to the Son of Man. Hoewever, her redemption was won by virtue of our Lord’s divine nature. The Word became flesh so that God himself should replace the sacrificial lamb of atonement once and for all and show us what it must take for us to inherit eternal life. Jesus could not have redeemed us unless he were divine, and his divinity alone transcends time and space.
Christ rose again from the dead, was bodily restored to new life in time and space, as a man and the firstfruits of all human beings who belong to him. Paul makes it clear in his first letter to the Corinthians that both Christ and his faithful disciples rise from the dead each in proper order: first our Lord, then all those who belong to him past, present, and future. Jesus is also fully God, he alone died for our sins, and it is by his power alone that we shall be resurrected from the dead. So it is fitting that none of us who belong to Christ should be the first to experience the glory our Lord has achieved for us. This glory is rightfully reserved first for the Son of Man who suffered and died for us and gave redemptive value to our own suffering and death. Moreover, Enoch, Moses, and Elijah were not completely sinless as was Jesus. The gates of heaven were closed until Jesus gave up his spirit on the cross because of the sin of Adam. If Mary had died before her Son’s crucifixion and death, her assumption would have occurred after our Lord’s resurrection even though she had been redeemed in advance so to speak by the merits of his suffering and death.
When he expelled the man, he settled him east of the garden of Eden; and he stationed the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword, to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3, 24
“Where I am going you cannot follow me now, though you will follow later.”
John 13, 36
In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be."
John 14, 2-3
In His human soul united to His divine Person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.
Catechism of the Catholic Church, 638
Elijah may have been taken to Sheol, “the land of the dead”, where the souls of the just awaited the Messiah to open the gates of heaven. Or he may have been snatched up to the first heaven - a higher form of terrestial paradise situated before the gates of heaven, the third heaven where Christ had ascended to and his Blessed Mother had been taken body and soul for neither of them were tainted by original sin in their humanity. Paul speaks of three heavens (cf. 2 Cor 12: 2-3). The man who was taken up to the third heaven must exist there as a disembodied soul where he awaits his resurrection and final judgment. Elijah and Moses will still be judged on the last day along with the rest of the human race. Mary is the only human creature who will not be judged for she was preserved free from the stain of original sin.
Jesus was gloriously and bodily restored to new life at his Resurrection from the dead.
We know that Moses and Elijah aren’t in hell awaiting judgment and eternal damnation.
Pax Christu :harp:
J
jlhargus
Guest
Good Fella;5354312Christ **rose again [/quote said:
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Hercules253
Guest
Ok if Mary died first then it makes sense she is in Heaven. I agree with that. I still don’t know why everyone keeps putting 20 paragraphs explaining that she assumed into Heaven…its getting ridiculous. I never questioned if she was in Heaven or not!! just “how” she got there…
So do Catholics believe she died first and then went to heaven or she just directly went to heaven without death? Which one is it? There seems to be some confusion here.
Manny is saying she died a natural death and then went to Heaven.
However the Munificentissimus Deus does not anything about death but only that “she completed the course of her early life”
Other Catholics say that since she was sinless, she could not of experience death and Jesus would not allow her to decay.
So which one is it, people??? Death first or just assumed straight into heaven without experiencing death?..and what Catholic document says that?
So do Catholics believe she died first and then went to heaven or she just directly went to heaven without death? Which one is it? There seems to be some confusion here.
Manny is saying she died a natural death and then went to Heaven.
However the Munificentissimus Deus does not anything about death but only that “she completed the course of her early life”
Other Catholics say that since she was sinless, she could not of experience death and Jesus would not allow her to decay.
So which one is it, people??? Death first or just assumed straight into heaven without experiencing death?..and what Catholic document says that?
G
Good_Fella
Guest
In his definition of the Assumption, Pope Pius Xll left it open for Catholics to believe whether Mary had died or was still alive before she was taken body and soul into heaven. Either way, all Catholics are obligated to believe that Mary was taken into heaven with her body and soul united, her body preserved free from the corruption of death.
The question of how Mary’s life had actually ended is unimportant compared with her eternal destiny. Still most Catholic theologians have believed that Mary passed away before she was assumed into heaven. It appears the official non-infallible position of the Church is that Mary “fell asleep” before she was taken into heaven.
The Assumption of the Blessed virgin Mary is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians.
In giving birth you kept your virginity; In your Dormitionyou did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death. [Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.]
Catechism of the Catholic Church, # 966
Dormition: “falling asleep” at death
Pax Christu :harp:
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Peter_Dawson
Guest
Technically, the teaching is that Mary ascended body and soul to Heaven after she died, because the Encyclical teaching the Assumption discusses Mary’s “dead body” not experiencing corruption – rotting. If she wasn’t “dead,” her “dead body” can’t have “not experienced corruption,” which would make the Encyclical wrong on its face. Therefore, Mary was assumed after death.
It is strange that non-Catholic Christians struggle with this. At the end of time, those who are saved among those who are still alive will be assumed body and soul into Heaven while alive, a much more exciting privilege than what Mary experienced.
In fact, the Bible may mention Mary’s Assumption, within a typological word picture in the Book of Revelation, here…
14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly to her place in the desert, where, far from the serpent, she was taken care of for a year, two years, and a half-year. Revelation 12:14.
In Scripture, the “eagle” is the Holy Spirit. Baby eagles are Christians. Flying baby eagles are Christians being assumed into Heaven. Here, the Revelation 12 Mother of the Child Who Would Rule the World with an Iron Rod is being given “eagle wings” for “flying.”
G
Good_Fella
Guest
The Blessed Virgin Mary said to St. Bridget of Sweden:
*"One day when I was admiring the love of God in a spiritual ecstasy, my soul was filled with such joy that it could hardly contain itself. And during that contemplation my soul departed from my body. You cannot imagine what splendor my soul perceived then, and with what honor the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit welcomed it, and with what a multitude of angels it was carried upward.
"But those persons who were in my house with me when I gave up my spirit fully understood what divine mysteries I was then experiencing, because of the unusual light that they saw. Thereafter those friends of my Son who had been brought together by God buried my body in the valley of Josaphat. Countless angels accompanied them.
"My body lay entombed in the ground. Then it was taken up to Heaven with infinite honor and rejoicing. There is no other human body in Heaven except the glorious body of my Son and my body.
“That my Assumption was not known to many persons was the will of God, my Son, in order that faith in his Ascension might first of all be firmly established in the hearts of men, for they were not prepared to believe in his Ascension, especially if my Assumption had been announced in the beginning.”*
The Revelations of St. Bridget were judged favorably by Pope Gregory Xl and Pope Boniface lX. The Council of Constance (1414-18) and the Council of Basel (1431-49) judged them to be in conformity with the Catholic faith and worthy of belief.
Pax Christu :harp:
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Hercules253
Guest
40. Hence the revered Mother of God, from all eternity joined in a hidden way with Jesus Christ in one and the same decree of predestination,(47) immaculate in her conception, a most perfect virgin in her divine motherhood, the noble associate of the divine Redeemer who has won a complete triumph over sin and its consequences, finally obtained, as the supreme culmination of her privileges, that she should be preserved free from the corruption of the tomb and that, like her own Son, having overcome death, she might be taken up body and soul to the glory of heaven where, as Queen, she sits in splendor at the right hand of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages.(48)
This is according to
APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION OF POPE PIUS XII
MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS
DEFINING THE DOGMA OF THE ASSUMPTION
November 1, 1950
Here are the links:
LINK #1
LINK #2
LINK #3
So I guess she did went up to Heaven body and Soul. That’s what the Catholic documents say. And they know that because of what??
So there is even more confusion. Catholics say she did die but the official Pope document says she didn’t die. And, yes it does make a big difference.
If during the 4th century no one knew about what happened to Mary and Eastern Christians are saying she died first then how is it that a thousand years later, the Catholic Pope is claiming that she didn’t die at all and claiming that as an infallible truth? There is a huge contradiction there and the Pope seems to know something that the early traditions didn’t know. So it certainly wasn’t through apostolic tradition. Thoughts?
G
Good_Fella
Guest
By Sacred Tradition. The Holy Spirit is the source of the divine truth revealed by God to his Church (Jn 16:12-13). Pope Pius confirmed the traditional belief in the Assumption and raised this doctrine to the status of an explicit revelation from God when he defined it a dogma of the Church which all Christians must give their full assent to.
Pope Pius “defined” the dogma of the Assumption. He did not “define” the end of Mary’s earthly life but rather the beginning of her eternal inheritance. The question of how Mary’s life on earth ended was left theologically open for pious speculation. Whether Mary had died or had been taken up into heaven while still alive makes no difference. Mary’s body could have been preserved free from the corruption of death in either case. There is no room for pious dissent concerning this singular privilege granted to our Blessed Mother from her divine Son.
Pope Pius is merely acknowledging the existence of a tradtional belief of the Church that Mary had fallen asleep at death. He appears to be leaning in favor of this eastern tradition but refrains from defining it a dogma. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the pontiff decided not to close the question of Mary’s end in this life.
By the end of the 4th century it would seem that Christians never questioned whether Mary had been assumed into heaven. They simply questioned whether Mary had actually died before being assumed.
The pontiff doesn’t claim to “know” how exactly Mary’s earthly life ended.
Pax Christu :harp:
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Hercules253
Guest
Actually I don’t think it could be more loud and clear. Pius explicitly claims that and since he claims that, it is infallible…in fact the Catechism follows him:
966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.”
That’s interesting that you say the Pontiff doesn’t know exactly how Mary’s life ended (even though he does state it) but I guess this pope does when he says-
- “if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined the “Assumption of Mary", let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith” (Munificentissimus Deus, 45,)*
-The papal bull of 1950 declared this
You’re right. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia says this and here is the link
LINK#1
So in summary, Catholics say they don’t exactly know if Mary died first before assuming into Heaven and then a thousand years they finally made up their mind (you call it divine revelation) and now claim that she didn’t die after all but assumed body AND soul into Heaven and that this is infallible and if you don’t believe this you have fallen away from the Catholic Faith.…hey the “infallible” popes said all this, not me.
“The apostles entrust the ‘Sacred deposit’ of the faith (the depositum fidei), contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church…[the Magisterium] teaches only what has been handed on to it…All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith” (Catechism, 84-86).
The irony is that Catholics admit that Mary’s death is unknown and the early Church fathers and popes didn’t know anything about it. If that is the case then where on earth do these popes thousands of years later get that from?
But if this dogma is so important—to the point that those who do not believe it are condemned—how do Catholic clergy and theologians explain the fact that most mainstream Catholics lived for approximately 1,400 years in ignorance of this dogma?
If they did not need this “truth” for salvation prior to 1950, why do they need it now?
THAT DOESN’T MAKE ANY SENSE…
Oh but it does…if someone claims to say that Mary didn’t die, just because, without any evidence, and then claims it as an infallible truth makes a big difference…If they are wrong about this, then it is possible that they are wrong about other claims…
You are providing too much speculation and obviously trying way too hard leaving you with more questions than answers
- Status