CHALLENGING mary's assumption

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Is the Transitus beatae Mariae of Pseudo-Melito of Gnostic origin?
Yes, but what is heresy? Heresy is not a complete denial of the truth, but rather a mixture of truth and lies. For example, Mormons believe in a God (which is true), but believe several things that are false (such as denying the Trinity). That’s what makes all heresy dangerous.

So my questions are:
  1. Have the Popes defined which parts of this literature are heresy and which are not?
  2. Did the Popes condemn the literature itself (the Gnostic parts) or the idea that Mary was assumed into Heaven?
  3. Where in the Declaration of the Dogma of Mary’s Assumption by Pope Pius XII in 1950 cite this literature?
 
kc << Is the Transitus beatae Mariae of Pseudo-Melito of Gnostic origin? >>

No, the document itself is not “gnostic” by my understanding of “gnosticism.” It does contain miraculous and “fanciful” stories. It is not gnostic according to classic gnosticism. From the New Catholic Encyclopedia (2003) on “Gnosticism” (volume 6, page 255ff):

– while it is difficult to present an overview of the contents of Gnostic teaching to include all the pseudo-Christian forms, the basic structure of Gnosticism can be grouped around five headings: God, the world, man, salvation, and morality;

– the distinguishing traits of Gnosticism include dualism, emanationism, and salvation through esoteric knowledge (or gnosis in Greek);

– as for soteriology, its most distinguishing feature is that salvation is accomplished not by the power of God nor by human faith nor by cooperation with the will of God, but by assimilation of esoteric knowledge;

– the Gnostic “savior” is a semi-divine personage, a messenger from God Himself; but Christ does not become man; Gnosticism is Docetic in holding that the redeemer merely seems to become incarnate; various devices are used to explain away the Passion and death of Jesus.

None of that is in the “Transitus” stories, although I haven’t read all of them. You can read some of these "Transitus" documents online. Stephen Shoemaker translated some of them himself which were not translated into English before. On the Pseudo-Melito one, Shoemaker says: “It is worth noting that many of the earliest exemplars of this literary tradition are quite heterodox, and (Ps.-)Melito’s narrative is one of the earliest ‘orthodox’ responses to this earlier tradition.” (Intro to Ps.-Melito of Sardis, The Passing of Blessed Mary)

The “Transitus” stories have this in common according to Carol’s Mariology:

“A first common feature is that all recount the death of Mary; this is their theme, their primary concern, the event which invests them with a specious homogeneity. Around this central event several characteristic, legendary details are grouped…”

– the miraculous arrival of all or some of the Apostles;
– the tidings brought to Mary of her approaching death;
– Mary’s experience of fear;
– some hostile Jewish intervention on the occasion of her burial.

“A second common feature is that all postulate in connection with Mary’s death a divine intervention unique on such an occasion. It is on the nature, the time, and the locale of this intervention that disagreement arises. Some accounts speak of…”

– a translation of Mary’s body to a presumably earthly paradise, where it is preserved incorrupt under the Tree of Life;

– still others describe a genuine assumption, a reunion of soul and body which entails Our Lady’s entrance into Heaven.

Shoemaker presents all the ancient sources for these traditions. Some scholars indeed trace the original “stories” back to gnostic sources, others trace them to Jewish-Christian sources. They are not essentially gnostic in theology however, but present a “genuine Christian insight” that it was not fitting that the body of Mary should see corruption. That is the same theology of the orthodox Fathers, and Pope Pius XII on the Assumption.

kc << Is the Transitus beatae Mariae of Pseudo-Melito a forgery attributed to Melito? >>

A forgery in the sense it is a “pseudo” document (Pseudo-Melito). All that means is that someone AFTER the alleged author (in this case St. Melito of Sardis) attributed the authorship to Melito. This is no big deal as it was popularly done in the early Church. That doesn’t change the fact that Juniper Carol’s Mariology calls these accounts “SIGNIFICANT” and “PRICELESS” both historically and theologically.

continued…

Phil P
 
kc << Was this document included in a list of heresy condemned by Pope Gelasius and Pope Hormisdas? >>

Have you read that document the “Decree of Pope Gelasius” ? It too is available online. See my article and the objections at the bottom.

There is NOTHING in there about Mariology or the Assumption. NOTHING. The “Decree” concerns a list of correct canonical vs. non-canonical books. That’s it. It is not a “list of heresy” although it does name some heretics. I can tell you haven’t even bothered to read the Decree. It is available in English and Latin online. It is irrelevant to the doctrine of the Assumption itself. Besides it probably wasn’t written by “Pope Gelasius” – it too is a pseudo-document (attributed to Pope Gelasius) according to Shoemaker, although scholars disagree about its authorship.

Pick up Carol’s Mariology volumes at your local university library as I did, or find Shoemaker’s scholarly study on the “Transitus” and the earliest Assumption/Dormition traditions. It is available for $40+ from Amazon.com

Stephen J. Shoemaker, Ancient Traditions of the Virgin Mary’s Dormition and Assumption (Oxford Univ Press, 2002, 2006 paperback)

Also,

Luigi Gambero, Mary and the Fathers of the Church (Ignatius Press, 1999 English trans, orig 1991 in Italian)

You want the facts on the history of the Church and Mary, those are the books you want. Scott Hahn’s book Hail, Holy Queen can’t hurt either, but its a more popular text with a couple scholarly sources to the Fathers, etc. I would suggest stop memorizing these stupid anti-Catholic arguments of Webster or White and get your butt to the library and look up this stuff yourself. 👍

Phil P
 
I think y’all might be doing the OP a disservice by debating these articles/encyclicals/etc here. Perhaps you should spin off a new thread?
 
The Original Post asked this:

<< hmmmm, where do catholics get this idea from? i mean, as far as i am concerned, the Bible never mentions this. and, isnt that the only source of christian knowledge? >>

This article answers this question and more:

The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Too bad it is too scholarly for the original poster, but that’s the answer to “Where do Catholics get this idea from” in livid detail. Print it out, it comes to about 25 pages if you set margins at (0.5) all around.

The original poster would probably be the kind of person that would find Webster’s dumb stuff on the Assumption online and believe it. My article cuts that nonsense right off. 👍 One can still debate whether Revelation 11-12 refers to Mary, or the “Ark of the Covenant” is Mary, but those are side biblical issues to the main question asked: “Where do Catholics get the Assumption from?”

Catholic Answers tract is great too, with a bit less detail. The original poster can now get educated a little on the history of the Church, and come back and ask more sophisticated questions.

Phil P
 
Livid detail? I should have said lurid, or just Great Detail. 😃

Phil P
 
That’s right. The Catholic Church. Just because they didn’t call themselves Catholic at that time does not mean it’s not the same Church.
i believe they were called “christians”.

they were the originals and hadnt developed their beliefs over the years.
 
My fellow Catholics, going for Sola Scriptura here simply won’t work. As I follow your logic to the non-Catholics:
  1. Mary’s Assumption is not mentioned in Scripture.
  2. Scripture Alone is not Biblical.
  3. Therefore, Mary was Assumed body and soul into Heaven.
I don’t know if any of you have ever taken a logic class, but there’s something seriously wrong with this.
Penitus…

I think perhaps you missed my point. The whole argument from the guy who started this thread was based on Mary’s Assumption not being in Scripture…ergo; It must not be true.

What good does it do to present historical evidence if you can’t first get to the bottom of “Sola Scriptura?”

That is all I was trying to say.
 
I can explain it just fine. That’s not my point.

You keep making the point that the Assumption is not found in Scripture.

I’m asking you to explain why you believe that every point of doctrine must be found explicitly in Scripture. The Bible doesn’t say anything about that.
well that dosnt make any sense. if i could believe things that werent mentioned in scripture then i could believe anything i wanted. i could say random things like pigs can fly and believe that
 
Because the Ark is a “type” or “foreshadowing” of what was to come. The vessel that carried the Word of God. Jesus is also reffered to as the “Word” in scripture.

It’s interesting to me that the Ark is seen by John to be in heaven, (Rev 11 and 12) and in the very next breath he speaks of the woman “clothed with the sun” who was with child. Then it goes on to describe the dragon. The Child is Jesus, even though it does not specifically say the name Jesus. The dragon is Satan, even though it does not specifically name the dragon as Satan. Why would the woman be anyone other than Mary?
just because the ark and the women are mentioned “close” to one another does not mean that they are the same thing. and to say the ark is mary is certainly stretching it. i cant see how you base this belief on something which was probably taken out of context.
 
He loved her, she was his mother and she was sinless. Of course he didn’t have to do that, we aren’t saying that. He however did that because of his love to this most perfect creature.

.
i thought JC was the only one who was sinless. how do u know mary wasnt? im saying that if u say “mary was assumed without a doubt” and you are basing this on an assumption as scriptures dont mention this then its basically like saying you know how god operates eventhough he is far too superior for u to understand
 
sorry guys for being a little “upfront”, but i am a Protestant attending a catholic school. i hear that catholics teach that “mary assended body and soul to heaven before she died”.

hmmmm, where do catholics get this idea from? i mean, as far as i am concerned, the Bible never mentions this. and, isnt that the only source of christian knowledge?

at the moment, i totally disagree with this teaching. but, no one at school has been able to argue their beliefs to me (they all thought it was taught in the bible). please, i am open to debate, i want to know the reasons why catholics believe this so that i am not simply blindly denying this teaching.
I am glad you are attending a Catholic School, because I hope you will learn that the Bible is not the only source of Christian knowledge. However, you may still have heard something erroneous. Our family history tells us that Mary died, and all the Apostles were gathered at her tomb. when the tomb was opened, her body was not found where they had placed it. All present assumed (😃 ) that her Son had come for her, and took her home to heaven to sit by His side. This has been the belief of the Church since the first century. If you put “Mary” or “Assumption” in the search on CAF you will turn up many threads on this topic.
 
just because the ark and the women are mentioned “close” to one another does not mean that they are the same thing. and to say the ark is mary is certainly stretching it. i cant see how you base this belief on something which was probably taken out of context.
Mary as New Ark of the Covenant

Original Ark of the Covenant:
Contained the Word of God (the 10 Commandments)
Contained the symbol of Priesthood (the Rod of Aaron)
Contained the Bread of Life (pieces of Manna)

Mary as New Ark:
Contained the Word Incarnate (John 1)
Contained the Final High Priest (Jesus)
Contained the Bread of Life (John 6)

Read Hail, Holy Queen for some more fun information.

And these articles:
Ark of the New Covenant
Mary: The Ark of the New Covenant
 
The Catholic Church is not a denomination. It is the Universal Church founded by Christ.
yes, but due to the many discrepencies in it teachings (such as this one) other variatians were formed
 
Luke 1:48

No, the Church wasn’t corrupt. Sure, some bishops and clergy were roccut but not the Church. Or are you suggesting that one feature of the Church is sinlessness of it’s members? No it’s not. The people were on the right journey when they saw the corruption but then they failed their mission when they broke from the One Church.
firstly, Luke 1:48 does not say this, i think u quoted the wrong verse.

and, to obtain a bible u had to be a high ranking monk. no peasant was “allowed” to have one. priests would ofted lie to the rich to get their mone, etc.
 
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