CHALLENGING mary's assumption

[guanophore]

ok, everyone seems to think that because mary was JCs mother he must have ressurected her. well, dosent god love us all, why does death occur?

Clearly, “everyone” does not believe this, but only those who have received the Apostolic teachings.

Death occurs because through Adam, sin entered into the world, and the wages of sin is death.

if god can do anything, y did jesus have to die? the answer: God is sooooo superios to us that we cannot begin to comprehend his complexity. for us to assume that “god loved mary therefore she was assumed” is limiting god as in saying we know how he operates. you cannot assume these thing!

The truth is that we cannot “prove” what happened to Mary. All we know is that her body was not found. It does not limit God in any way to believe that he demonstrated in His mother that which He plans for all of us.

also, mary’s suffering was minimal to ohters in the bible. most of the apostles were imprisoned, torchured, persecuted and killed because of their faith, john the baptist was beheaded, and Gods chosen people were in slavery. just because god loved these people you cannot say that they were assumed.

It is impossible for any of us to say which of the Lord’s chosen suffered more. Only He knows for sure. What we do know is that God chose Mary as the holy ark in which His presence would abide and become flesh. We know that Jesus kept the commandments and that He honored his earthly father and mother. Mary was not taken up into heaven by any merit of her own, including that which she suffered on account of her Son.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Let me make a technical point here–Christ ascended into heaven by His own power, Mary was assumed into heaven by the power of God…

also another thing to note is that it isn’t doctrine whether or not Mary actually physically died, although it is likely she suffered a physical death like her Son. The Eastern Catholics (the 23 sui ierus eastern churches united with rome) have a celebration of the dormition (death) of Mary. So the Assumption probably happened after Her physical death.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Oh! I can’t belive I forgot there was a biblical verse on Mary’s suffering!

“Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also…” Luke 2: 35

 

[guanophore]

catholics are only one type of christians u know?

I know that scripture teaches us that there is only one Body, one Baptism, One Faith. Jesus founded only one Church, not “churches”.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Three persons being the one God??? :nope: The spirit is present, and descends upon Jesus, sure. But John and many others were also present, doesn’t mean they were one or were God.

And the spirit is nowhere in scripture implied to be both a distinct person* and *actually God.

Actually you’re wrong on that point. Scripture does state that the only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (i.e. rejecting salvation).

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<also another thing to note is that it isn’t doctrine whether or not Mary actually physically died, although it is likely she suffered a physical death like her Son. >>

Yes, ,it is doctrine that the Virgin died. Here is the appropriate passage from the Fifth Matins Lesson of the Office promugated by Pope Pius XII:

“But she yielded obedience to the law established by him to whom she had given birth, and, as the daughter of the old Adam, underwent the old sentence, which even her Son, who is the very Life Itself, had not refused.” (From a sermon by St. John of Damascus)

Lex orandi, lex credendi. If it’s in the liturgical formularies of the Church, it’s the teaching of the church.

 

[guanophore]

i believe they were called “christians”.

they were the originals and hadnt developed their beliefs over the years.

Indeed, in Antioch they were first called “Christians”, and by the end of the first century, “Catholic”. Jesus taught that the Kingdom was like a mustard seed, and it certainly has grown in such a manner as to be unrecognizeable as related to that small seed!

 

[Joero]

Sometimes, we need logic here in explaining the assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Let me start first quoting Psalms 51:5 & Romans 5: 12.
Psalms 51:5 says “I have been evil from the day I was born; from the time I was conceieved, I have been sinful”.
Romans 5: 12 says “Sin came into the world through one man, and his sin brought death with it. As a result death has spread to the whole human race because everyone has sinned”.

From these two verses of the holy bible, one would perceieved that everyone falls to the truth of these verses, no one is excluded.

But there are biblical passages that contradict the given passages above. That is in the person of Jesus Christ who became flesh according to John 1:1, 14.
2 Corinthians 5: 21 says “Christ was without sin, but for our sake God made Him share our sin in order that in union with Him we might share the righteousness of God”.
1 Peter 2: 22 says “He committed no sin, and no one ever heard a lie come from His lips”.
1 Peter 1: 19 says “It was the costly sacrifice of Christ, who was like a lamb without defect or flaw”.

We know that Jesus Christ was born (His physical nature) from a human being (a woman) Galatians 4:4 says “But when the right time finally came, God sent His own Son. He came as the son of a human mother and lived under the Jewish law”.
Heb. 2: 14 says “Since the children, as he calls them, are people of flesh and blood, Jesus Himself became like them and shared their human nature. He did this so that through His death He might destroy the devil, who has the power over death”.

This word above “human mother” which I underlined, would lead us to conclude that she (Blessed Virgin Mary) must be excluded from sin as stated in Psalms 51:5 & Romans 5: 12 since the moment she was conceived by her mother (St. Anne), because Wisdom 1:4 says “Wisdom will never dwell with anyone who is deceitful or a slave of sin”. and Jesus Christ is “the wisdom and the power of God” 1 Corinthians 1:24 for there is nothing that God cannot do, Luke 1: 37.

The woman in Gen. 3: 15 really fits to the Blessed Virgin Mary, for in 1 Timothy 2: 13 - 14 it says “For Adam was created first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and broke God’s law”.

The dogma of the assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, body and soul, developed from the dogma of Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. And so be it! Amen.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

firstly, Luke 1:48 does not say this, i think u quoted the wrong verse.

Hmmm, what version of the Bible are you using?
**
NIV:**
From now on all generations will call me blessed

NAS:
from this time on all generations will count me Bblessed.
**
KJV:**
from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

and, to obtain a bible u had to be a high ranking monk. no peasant was “allowed” to have one. priests would ofted lie to the rich to get their mone, etc.

Well, you have your history a bit twisted. Who told you that? Your portestant friends?

Most people couldn’t own bible for one simple reason - they couldn’t afford them. All bibles were hand-written and their cost was extremely high (probably like buying a Ferrari). Only the richest of the rich could afford to have one. Bibles were normally held in public places like churches and chained so no one would steal them and all those who were able to read could read them. But here is another problem, MOST couldn’t read (and still can’t to a large extend in many countries)… So the Catholic Church was only way to hand the word of God for approx. 1500 years and Sola Scriptura was a concept unknown at that time. Think of it, which one is most likely God’s will?

As for priest lying to get their money, why are you telling us these things? Why are you attacking the church as if it’s the factory for is!?!?!? This is simple intellectual dishonesty, you know? What’s next? Are you going to bring up the fact that some CATHOLIC priests probably stole candies from a little child! But guess what, protestants lie to get money and steal candies as well!

 

[andzy]

Why are you attacking the church as if it’s the factory for is!?!?!? This is simple intellectual dishonesty, you know?

After reading Stompalot’s comments I got an impression that this person needs to learn some basic theological concepts.
It would really help for all of us, if you (Stompalot) could first study some basic principles of the Catholic teachings instead of using some banal anti-Catholic phrases. Maybe then you wouldn’t have to be stomping around a lot. (No pun intended.)

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

i thought JC was the only one who was sinless.

How do you know? Do you doubt God that he would be able to save person from sin if he wanted to?

How do u know mary wasnt?

I know it because the Church, who was given the authority to teach from Christ says so.

I believe it because the Bible says so when Angel greets Mary “Hail, full of grace” (Luke 1:28). A person who is filled with grace cannot sin.

Further Genesis 3:15 is called protoevangelium because it’s the first gospel. It says: “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” If you actually read verses around you will see that it’s speaking about the devil, Jesus and Mary. God will put enmity (total opposition) between Jesus and the devil and Mary and the devil’s seed (being sin). If however Mary would sin there would be no enmity - when we sin there is actually friendship.

One also cannot forget the fact that it would be very in place (while not completely necessary) to totally purify Mary because from her womb the Holy of Holies, Lord of Lord, King most High, God Jesus Christ would be born. In a sense Mary is the new ark of covenant (or arc of the new covenant). What great things did God do to the arc of covenant in the OT? Wouldn’t he repeat them for the new arc who will now carry God himself?

And last, but not least, it’s a Sacred Tradition from Church Fathers and it can’t be ignored. Even the reformers, however wrong they were, were able to grasp this concept. Martin Luther, John Wycliffe or Huldrych Zwingli all believed in it!

im saying that if u say “mary was assumed without a doubt” and you are basing this on an assumption as scriptures dont mention this then its basically like saying you know how god operates eventhough he is far too superior for u to understand

It’s supported from the scripture and by the Church. I believe it without doubt because it’s a dogma of the Church and God operates through his Church to protect it from error. So there you have it…

 

[DaisyD]

It seems to me if you would like to believe that Mary was an assumed, perpetual virgin, sinless, co redeemer, co mediator, miracle maker, prayer answerer, queen of heaven, etc, etc, etc,
go right ahead. It will not change whether you will go to heaven or not.
I will call her blessed as the Bible prophetically states in Luke 1:48.
But that is it.

You can pray 10,000 Hail Mary’s and it won’t get you into heaven.

Nothing but the blood, nothing but the blood, nothing but the blood of Jesus, will get you there.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

You can pray 10,000 Hail Mary’s and it won’t get you into heaven.

Nothing but the blood, nothing but the blood, nothing but the blood of Jesus, will get you there.

No, it won’t get me to heaven like praying million Our Fathers.

…but a positive reponse to the grace we recieve from doing so will cretainly aid us!

 

[DaisyD]

Praying a million Our Fathers will not get you there either.

YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN! Jn3:3

 

[andzy]

Praying a million Our Fathers will not get you there either.
YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN! Jn3:3

No, if you’re a women, you must have children to be saved: 1 Timothy 2:15

 

[fellowChristian]

andzy–

Careful that sounds like a “work”. Some people don’t believe in “works”.

 

[zemi]

It seems to me if you would like to believe that Mary was an assumed, perpetual virgin, sinless, co redeemer, co mediator, miracle maker, prayer answerer, queen of heaven, etc, etc, etc,
go right ahead. It will not change whether you will go to heaven or not.
I will call her blessed as the Bible prophetically states in Luke 1:48.
But that is it.

You can pray 10,000 Hail Mary’s and it won’t get you into heaven.

Nothing but the blood, nothing but the blood, nothing but the blood of Jesus, will get you there.

DaisyD,

everything that is in the Bible is for us Catholics materially sufficient. That is the Bible contains all the truth necessary for our salvation. BUT - that doesn’t mean it contains all the theological truth.

Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you? Was your response (or the other’s response) *“Why should one ask anyone for prayer?! That won’t change if I get to heaven. Nothing but the blood, nothing but the blood, nothing but the blood of Jesus, will get me there,” *Do you reason that way? Do you look differently on Mary and the Saints? Why that dichotomy then?

As for your last statement - I dare to say I’m sure even you do not believe that - e.g. if you reject what Jesus did for you and so to say spit to his face, will the blood of Jesus get you into heaven anyway?

 

[DaisyD]

[QUOTEHave you ever asked anyone to pray for you? Was your response (or the other’s response) *“Why should one ask anyone for prayer?! That won’t change if I get to heaven. Nothing but the blood, nothing but the blood, nothing but the blood of Jesus, will get me there,” Do you reason that way? Do you look differently on Mary and the Saints? Why that dichotomy then?

=zemi;2619382]DaisyD,

As for your last statement - I dare to say I’m sure even you do not believe that - e.g. if you reject what Jesus did for you and so to say spit to his face, will the blood of Jesus get you into heaven anyway?

I don’t ask people who have died to pray for me. That would be necromancy!

The blood means accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

[zemi]

The blood means accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Daisy,

have you looked into the Catholic teaching let’s say on Assumption? I mean - really looked at it? Because I never understood it until I did my research.

 

[zemi]

I don’t ask people who have died to pray for me. That would be necromancy!

The blood means accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Daisy,

is God “the God of living or the dead”?