Chaput: No unity among US bishops on sanctions for abortion support

[po18guy]

I have not said that the catechism condemns Archbishop Chaput, and I have not said that he is acting wrongly. I merely pointed out that most bishops disagree with him.

You, on the other hand, have accused the majority of the bishops of cowardice and of being traitors to Christ. Your refusal to give any justification for doing so speaks for itself - there is none.

Slow down! Um, where is “cowardice” or “traitors” used in any of my posts? These are your own words. Methinks you have overreacted. The entire Church, and the American Church in particular, has long suffered from relativist thinking and a general lack of backbone amongst some of the very leaders we look up to.

Let’s put a little historical perspective on this: Luke 22:32 Jesus said to Peter “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.” Those “brethren” are the first Bishops. Jesus recognized the weakness in our humanness. Do you not also see it?

Rather than seeking to disagree with Archbishop Chaput and the other strong Church leaders, whom God has rightly placed over us, seek rather reasons to agree with them. Why is a left-wing political view held by certain Catholic politicians so important to you? I ask in all sincerity.

 

[ANNE_2]

I am not the one looking for holes in Church teaching. I am also not the one judging the souls of others. I am just stating the facts - the majority of the bishops do not deny communion to pro-choice politicians, and the Pope has given communion to pro-choice politicians on several occasions. There have probably been a dozen threads on this topic - have you not seen any of them?

No, please provide just a few links on the Pope giving Holy Communion to knownnpro-abortion Catholics.

 

[ANNE_2]

Regarding these statements

1. The war in Iraq was more important than abortion in the United States.
2. Because the party that does not have a pro-abortion platform had been in the White House for 8 years and abortion is still legal so what difference does it make?
3. Poverty is a bigger problem than abortion.
4. Other social issues are more important than abortion.
5. Etc. etc. etc. etc. rationalization after rationalization
6. Since 1973 there have been over 50 million abortions (genocide) in the United States.
7. We are still in the war in Iraq, Afganistan and now Lybia - so where is the change. (Although everyone including President Bush had bad information, even Hillary Clinton voted to go to war.)
8. In what Country ? Who is starving to death in the US?
9. Tell them to read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” that all Catholics are required to adhere to. The greatest social injustice is the killing of innocents, taking away their God given right to Life.

 

[ANNE_2]

TMC -
You have strpongly accused our Pope more than once in this thread of giving Holy Communion to those known to be in mortal sin, and fully supporting Bishops who give Holy Communion to those who are publically known to be in a State of Mortal Sin. (obstinate in heresy, schism or sin)

You have not yet supplied any documentary links to support your accusations.
Please do so.

You are accusing the Pope of violating Canon Law, and volating the Doctrine of the Faith as stated in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”.
This is very serious and must not be allowed to stand without documentation.

You are the one who brought up “excommunication”.
We are talking about not providing Holy Communion, not excommuication.
Reread Abp’s letter.

 

[TMC]

Slow down! Um, where is “cowardice” or “traitors” used in any of my posts? These are your own words. Methinks you have overreacted. The entire Church, and the American Church in particular, has long suffered from relativist thinking and a general lack of backbone amongst some of the very leaders we look up to.

You can’t be serious. In this very paragraph you say that Church leaders have “a general lack of backbone.” And then there is this (bolding mine):

The Church as a whole is suffering on many accounts - disobedience of the laity;** laxity of teaching**; indecisiveness in leadership. The list could go on and on. Simply put, it is a good and holy practice to pray for the entire Church, but our shepherds are greatly in need of prayer - that they will faithfully shepherd the flock under their care. Those **Bishops who will not defend our Lord **in the Holy Eucharist are saying, by their inaction, that the world has prevailed against the Church. They have, in essence, declared an open communion.

I pray specifically that **our Bishops and Cardinals will be strengthened with the courage **needed to oppose the world and its corruptive influence upon the faith.

So saying that our bishops and cardinals are lax, indecisive, refusing to defend our Lord, declaring open communion and in need of gaining courage is not the same as saying they are weak, cowardly and traitorous? Then what do those things mean?

Let’s put a little historical perspective on this: Luke 22:32 Jesus said to Peter “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.” Those “brethren” are the first Bishops. Jesus recognized the weakness in our humanness. Do you not also see it?

Rather than seeking to disagree with Archbishop Chaput and the other strong Church leaders, whom God has rightly placed over us, seek rather reasons to agree with them. Why is a left-wing political view held by certain Catholic politicians so important to you? I ask in all sincerity.

I have not said that Archbishop Chaput does not have the right to interpret Canon 915 in the manner he does within his diocese - he does. I have not questioned the rightful actions of any bishop, although you and many others on this thread have done that. I have not said anything to suggest that I agree with any politicians views. I have merely pointed out the fact that most bishops do not interpret Canon 915 the same way Archbishop Chaput does. I think it is wrong to suggest that the majority of bishops are weak, cowardly or unfaithful because they don’t adopt a particular interpretation of a particular part of the Canon.

 

[TMC]

Facts? You claim to be stating facts? I think you are not fooling anyone here except yourself; and of course thats the one that needs to be convinced of your position.

You state as fact that Popes and Bishops have given communion to pro-abortion poltticians and present it as though these Bishops and the Pope did so knowing that that person was in a state of moral sin. I can assure you this is not the case. I am sure there are many instances where Priests, Bishops, and even the Pope may have given communion to many people who were not in the required state of grace. The point is that the Bishops and the Pope were not aware of the state of their soul. If (as Archbishop Chaput says) they know that they are not in a state of grace communion would be withheld. The BIG qualifier is what the Bishop or Pope knew as fact. The main onus remains with the person receiving communion only they and God knows the state of their soul.

I have not said that any bishop or Pope has given communion to someone knowing they were in mortal sin, I have said that many bishops and at least the current and last Pope have given communion to politicians knowing that politician was pro-choice. I agree there is a difference, and that it is not our place to judge that decision.

 

[TMC]

TMC -
You have strpongly accused our Pope more than once in this thread of giving Holy Communion to those known to be in mortal sin, and fully supporting Bishops who give Holy Communion to those who are publically known to be in a State of Mortal Sin. (obstinate in heresy, schism or sin)

You have not yet supplied any documentary links to support your accusations.
Please do so.

You are accusing the Pope of violating Canon Law, and volating the Doctrine of the Faith as stated in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”.
This is very serious and must not be allowed to stand without documentation.

You are the one who brought up “excommunication”.
We are talking about not providing Holy Communion, not excommuication.
Reread Abp’s letter.

I am not accusing the Pope or any bishop of violating anything. My point is that it is up to the bishops to interpret the Canon and to make pastoral judgments. We cannot know the state of these politicians’ souls or the reasons for offering or withholding the Eucharist in these cases. We do know that the majority of bishops do not hold that Canon 915 requires withholding communion from politicians that take political positions that go against Church teaching.

You can look up the many threads on the topic of giving communion to pro-choice politicians yourself. It is certainly public knowledge that the Pope has given communion to Tony Blair and to the former Prime Minister of Italy, who was also pro-choice. Cardinal George has also spoken about his practices in this area and has also pointed out that the Pope does the same. Cardinal Wuerl has made similar comments as has Archbishop Dolan.

You brought up excommunication in post #20.

 

[irishpatrick]

People of all stripes do not understand that NOTHING will change to the good until we do something real about abortion. It is really amazingly simple…yet still will not happen. Catholics by the millions will again ignore Church teachings as they have for two-three decades.

 

[ANNE_2]

TMC, thank you for your response.
You are correct that we can not know what is in the hearts of any individual.
We only know politicians by their own public statements, and actions, and documented votes.

A united public statement from the US Bishops that any Catholic who supports abortion (a mortal sin) must not recieve Holy Communion, is not picking on any individual, but teaching politicians and others the seriousness of what they are doing,
Bishops would also be teaching all Catholics that abortion is a mortal sin - a crime against humanity, not a matter for consideration.

It would also help to quell another wide-spread Scandal that is in the USA at this time. (- a wink and a nod appearance). Giving the appearance its ok to recieve the Eucharist for those who publically support abortion - must be cleared up by our leaders - the Bishops, the sooner the better.
As long as this scandal exists, Souls are being lost, and the fundamental right to life of human beings is being violated in the worst way.

The “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” contains the Doctrine of the Faith and clearly states" - “1415 Anyone who desires to receive Christ in Eucharistic communion must be in the state of grace. Anyone aware of having sinned mortally must not receive communion without having received absolution in the sacrament of penance.”

From time to time there has been a need for reform in the Church, and there has been corruption. It is not just up to Bishops to interpret Canon law, and that is why they have Canon lawyers who specialize in this field.
Great reformers “within” the Church who were not Bishops include: “Francis of Assisi”, St. Vincent Ferrer, St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Bernardine of Siena, and St. John Capistran.

When something is not in accord with the Doctrine of the Faith, we all have the right to speak up. All of us (including Bishops) must be careful so that we do not participate in or encourage by complaisance the crimes (sins) of others.

 

[Barbkw]

Like radiation exposure, the passing of federal and states laws that finance and shield abortion touches everyone - in particular the unborn - and those laws ease attitudes toward abortion’s harmful and deadly effects.

These prochoice Catholic politicians are making personal choices to advance corporate sin.

They have already excommunicated themselves from the Body however their position allows for this personal sin to spread into the public - both in our nation and internationally.

These prochoice Catholic politicians create a public sin through the use of a public office.

Why would an archbishop refuse to make public his redress of the wrongs that these Catholics created?

 

[po18guy]

You can’t be serious. In this very paragraph you say that Church leaders have “a general lack of backbone.” And then there is this (bolding mine): So saying that our bishops and cardinals are lax, indecisive, refusing to defend our Lord, declaring open communion and in need of gaining courage is not the same as saying they are weak, cowardly and traitorous? Then what do those things mean? I have not said that Archbishop Chaput does not have the right to interpret Canon 915 in the manner he does within his diocese - he does. I have not questioned the rightful actions of any bishop, although you and many others on this thread have done that. I have not said anything to suggest that I agree with any politicians views. I have merely pointed out the fact that most bishops do not interpret Canon 915 the same way Archbishop Chaput does. I think it is wrong to suggest that the majority of bishops are weak, cowardly or unfaithful because they don’t adopt a particular interpretation of a particular part of the Canon.

Your response continues to be hyperbolic. Look at the classic marginalizing language you use against Archbishop Chaput!

Do you see any problem at all in Church leadership? Or is the problem, as you see it, with those who claim that there is a problem, such as Archbishop Chaput, or Bishop Thomas Olmstead, or Archbishop John Nienstedt, or Archbishop Timothy Dolan, or Raymond Cardinal Burke? The list can go on and on, but until and unless you recognize the scandal and damage that unfaithful Catholic politicians are doing to the Church, further conversation is meaningless.

 

[TMC]

Your response continues to be hyperbolic. If you constantly change and exaggerate the meaning of my words, I am wasting my time. Do you see any problem at all in Church leadership? Or is the problem, as you see it, with those who claim that there is a problem, such as Archbishop Chaput, or Bishop Thomas Olmstead, or Archbishop John Nienstedt, or Archbishop Timothy Dolan, or Raymond Cardinal Burke? I mean, we can go on, but until and unless you recognize the scandal and damage that unfaithful Catholic politicians are doing to the Church, further conversation is meaningless.

I guess further conversation is meaningless then, because I do not see how or why the fact that a few in the Church leadership take a different stance than the majority is indicative of a “problem with Church leadership.”

 

[TMC]

When something is not in accord with the Doctrine of the Faith, we all have the right to speak up. All of us (including Bishops) must be careful so that we do not participate in or encourage by complaisance the crimes (sins) of others.

I agree with this statement, but I don’t see how its productive or necessary to engage in that conversation by publicly attacking the courage or fidelity of our bishops. Speaking up can be constructive and productive, and I have done more than my share. But speaking up need not include tearing down.

 

[gakroeger]

It is an amazing study in human nature to watch the extent people are willing to go in rationalizing their actions. Because the truth is written on every human heart, we all have a desire to “believe” we are following truth. Unfortunately, because of our free will we seem to have a tendency to bend the truth to fit our individual beliefs and desires. Apparently, our ability to bend the truth goes so far as to even accept abortion of our most innocent. One has to wonder where the breaking point is.

 

[PJM]

=JHow;7754151]How would we know if a bishop hadn’t already gone to a politician in his diocese and counseled him / her to refrain from communion or re-think his / her position on abortion?

It’s not like anyone is really keeping tabs on Nancy Pelosi. Did she attend mass last Sunday? Did she receive communion? It’s not my turn to watch that Baba Yaga

I would guess that some Bishops in fact pursue a direct approach and don’t consider it our business to know one way or the other.

That my friend is an EXCELLENT point!

Let us pray that it’s alot more of them than …

God Bless,
Pat

 

[George_2007]

Would you find it to be an act of charity for your bishop to publicly proclaim your sins? The majority of bishops agree with you on private counseling, but not on the tactic of turning their pastoral duties into a public denunciation. That is a poltical tactic, not a pastoral action - or at least that is how most bishops see it.

They are publicly proclaiming their **own **sins. It’s already public record. That’s the problem! How much more public proclaimation of sin can there be than when Nancy Pelosi gets up in front of an audience at a press-covered event and says that it’s OK to be pro-choice and Catholic because God gave us free will? (see? choice, free will, same thing, it all fits, no problem).

Please explain what the point is with your use of “political.” If it’s “political” it’s only because the Catholic *politicians *in question are morally corrupt, creating serious scandal, and making horribly flawed public policy.

It’s true as you say that if some bishops don’t want to speak out publicly, that’s their decision. But this doesn’t mean it’s wrong for those bishops who choose to act this way to do so. That doesn’t make it “political”. Labeling something as “political” does and says nothing.

 

[ANNE_2]

I agree with this statement, but I don’t see how its productive or necessary to engage in that conversation by publicly attacking the courage or fidelity of our bishops. Speaking up can be constructive and productive, and I have done more than my share. But speaking up need not include tearing down.

You are jumping to your own biased conclusions. Your definition of “attack” must be weak.

The truth must be spoken to ‘effect necessary change’ even when it hurts.
If the truth had not been spoken with candor, abuse within the Church would still be hidden and continue to be handled badly.

CCC - " 2468 Truth as uprightness in human action and speech is called truthfulness, sincerity, or candor.
Truth or truthfulness is the virtue which consists in showing oneself true in deeds and truthful in words, and in guarding against duplicity, dissimulation, and hypocrisy."

CCC - "2467 Man tends by nature toward the truth. He is obliged to honor and bear witness to it: “It is in accordance with their dignity that all men, because they are persons . . . are both impelled by their nature and bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth once they come to know it and direct their whole lives in accordance with the demands of truth.”

 

[markomalley]

There are any number of posts here on CAF as well as other message boards across the Ether where the bishops are berated for establishing standards for ordinary folks while giving huge passes to public figures.

Typical examples include denial of a Catholic marriage to a divorced person while allowing a ________ (fill in the blank with the name of a high profile Catholic family) to be married umpteen times; attacking the poor girl who needs an abortion while giving Communion to the Nancy Pelosis of the world, and so on and so forth.

I personally would prefer to see more very outspoken bishops like Burke and (recently) Sheehan. Including if it meant jeopardizing the tax exempt status of the Church. I would be more than happy to sacrifice my charitable donation tax deduction if it meant that more souls could be saved from damnation.

 

[estesbob]

There are any number of posts here on CAF as well as other message boards across the Ether where the bishops are berated for establishing standards for ordinary folks while giving huge passes to public figures.

Typical examples include denial of a Catholic marriage to a divorced person while allowing a ________ (fill in the blank with the name of a high profile Catholic family) to be married umpteen times; attacking the poor girl who needs an abortion while giving Communion to the Nancy Pelosis of the world, and so on and so forth.

I personally would prefer to see more very outspoken bishops like Burke and (recently) Sheehan. Including if it meant jeopardizing the tax exempt status of the Church. I would be more than happy to sacrifice my charitable donation tax deduction if it meant that more souls could be saved from damnation.

The church never attacks a woman who has had an abortion and no woman ever needs an abortion.

Again I think we need to keep in mind that we have no idea what has been told to these pro-abortion politicians ain private. Recall that even with Patrick Kennedy ,who was told by his Bishop to quit receiving communion, it did not become public until Patrick Kennedy chose to do so.

I also think we should note that this is very much a regional thing as far as the bishops are concerned. Unfortunately there has been a nearly incestuous relationship in the past between the Catholic Church and the Democrat party in the east and northeast. Bishops in the Midwest and South have been much more outspoken in calling out Catholic pro-abortion politicians

 

[gakroeger]

The church never attacks a woman who has had an abortion and no woman ever needs an abortion.

Again I think we need to keep in mind that we have no idea what has been told to these pro-abortion politicians ain private. Recall that even with Patrick Kennedy ,who was told by his Bishop to quit receiving communion, it did not become public until Patrick Kennedy chose to do so.

I also think we should note that this is very much a regional thing as far as the bishops are concerned. Unfortunately there has been a nearly incestuous relationship in the past between the Catholic Church and the Democrat party in the east and northeast. Bishops in the Midwest and South have been much more outspoken in calling out Catholic pro-abortion politicians

Which goes to support Archbishop Chaput’s statement about why some Bishops choose to remain silent publicly regarding the pro-abortion Catholic politicians. They are afraid the Church will have no say in the political arena. My feeling is, so be it. The Church has survived the politics of many a society in the past and will continue to do so.

Also, one has to wonder why the Church (these Bishops in particularly since they want to have a political voice) do not support the only political party left that has a pro-life platform. We are in grave danger (not so much since the last election) of having no political party to support the pro-life position.