Charismatic Catholicism?

  • Thread starter Thread starter White_Peony
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I grew up both Baptist and Pentecostal. When I first started hearing about Catholic Charismatics, the Protestants I knew rejoiced.

Why?

Because the Catholic Church was one step closer to the “true” Apostolic Church, which was definitely not Catholic in our minds.

We said, “Now if only they could get rid of the idolatry”.

So yeah. Charismatic worship is like worship that can be found at any protestant pentecostal or charismatic fellowship. Minus the Eucharist.
 
White_Peony said:
And the Church is ok with it?! What on earth?!
Click to expand...
Yes! Absolutely. At our Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit. At our confirmation, the Bishop (or sometimes, a priest) lays hands on us to call forth an outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon us. We receive the Holy Spirit for a reason - He gives particular gifts to each of us, which are known as charisms. We are expected to use these charisms for the building up of the Church. Remember the parable of the talents? (Matthew 25:14-30, Luke 19:12-26) We are expected to use our spiritual gifts exactly as the servants were to use their master’s wealth for the building up of their master. Indeed, our Master is also gone, and will demand to see what we have done with our talents (gifts) during His absence. Are we ready to give account?

Saint Paul writes of the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14. We must not look upon the spiritual gifts as something confined to the bible, or something that occurred only long ago. We possess these gifts right now, and the need to use them is at least as great as it was in Paul’s day. In one sense, it is similar to Pentecostalism, but only in the sense that we both use the charisms. It is authentic Catholicism, and I would venture to say that our faith is not complete until we use our charisms.

Now, of the various charisms, the gift of tongues is the most flamboyant, and the one that attracts and receives the most attention. But, it is not to be desired above the other gifts. Each one who speaks in a tongue should have another present to interpret, or the gift is misused, since no one understands what is being said. It is sometimes forgotten that not everyone is intended to have the gift of tongues. Saint Paul writes that the gift of prophecy is to be desired, since it builds the Church up, instead of building the individual up. But, prophecy is the most misunderstood of the gifts. It is not necessarily about predicting the future, but may include forgotten knowledge of the past, or illumination of God’s plan. It is a quiet gift, and may involve the calling of others to a deeper faith, their encouragement, and occasional chastising for any lack of faith.

It is a shame that the modern Church does not much resemble the early Church as far as spirituality is concerned. God and the gifts of His Holy spirit have not changed. Who has? Remember that these gifts are to be used rather than stored up, and to be used not for our own edification, but that of the Master who gave the gifts to us. Consider: Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa is the Priest and preacher of the papal household. He is a charismatic Priest, and uses the gifts of the Holy Spirit for their intended purpose.

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is the organization that promotes the use of our charisms in the US. They conduct “Life in the Spirit” seminars, in conjunction with local parishes. These seminars inform participants of the history of the charisms, the use of the charisms, the variety of charisms, and provide witness testimony as to the presence of the Holy Spirit and His charisms in personal lives. Participants are invited to receive what is known as “baptism in the Holy Spirit” It is not a Sacramental Baptism, of course, but rather an immersion in the Spirit, by the laying on of hands in prayer.

Several years ago, I reluctantly attended a Life in the Spirit seminar which was given by our parish priest. All that I can tell you is that once I decided to surrender to God’s will, and underwent the baptism in the Holy Spirit, my faith life simply came alive. I lost my fear of speaking of my faith. I began to evangelize. I went much deeper into my faith. I began to experience prayer that was more profound than before. I experienced supernatural things in prayer before our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. In fact, it was the Holy Spirit that drew me to adoration of Christ in the Bleesed Sacrament in the first place.

Please have a look at it.
 
GloriousOrder said:
Yes, we wouldn’t want to upset the poor darlings, would we? :rolleyes: Let their ‘side’ take as much flak as traditionalists get!

White Peony, Charismatic Catholicism is a rubbish idea stemming from Catholic acceptance of a Protestant notion called Continuationism. The old debate is that the Charismatic Gifts mentioned by St. Paul (prophecy, healing, speaking in tongues) either continued after, or ceased at the death of, St. John the Apostle; the former side are called Continuationists, and the latter are called Cessationists. Most classical protties were Cessationists, believing the Gifts ceased around A.D. 100. The Charismatic movement is recent, and stems from old breakaway Protestants, who said the gifts continued.

The problem with the both camps is that they recognise gifts from Pentecost that never existed, were never recognised as legitimate by the Catholic Church before the 1970’s, and thus are a delusion. “Speaking” and “praying” in tongues means nothing in the modern sense: it’s gibberish. Why would God use rational creatures to spread the Gospel via a fundamentally irrational operation of the will? It contradicts everything He has given us through history, especially the wisdom of St. Thomas on human nature.

Report this post, if you want. Charismatic Christianity is nonsense. C.A.F. is ruled by a dictatorship of fear with regards to lack-of-charity. Won’t anyone stand up for what they are sure is the best form of worship? Must there be a grand inquisition because someone dislikes Charismatics? We ought to have some fortitude… it’s a virtue, you know, C.A.F.! 😃
Click to expand...
I have no idea where you have received your information from. It matches not one bit with my experience. The charismatic movement is approved and authorized from Pope Benedict XVI on down. Please know this: I attended one charismatic function and my faith life improved drastically. And no, I have never uttered a single syllable in a tongue.
 
I have never spoken with an opponent of the charismatic movement who has claimed to have any actual experience with the movement. Very sadly, some of their attitudes appear to be nothing more than simple prejudice and bigotry. There is a spirit that drives such attitudes, and it is not the Holy Spirit. Of that, I am sure.

1 Corinthians 13:13
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
13And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.
 
As with any other movement within the Church, the Charismatic Renewal is just that, a movement. It is just one way of responding to the Church’s needs of the day. The emergence of the mendicant orders (Franciscans, Dominicans, etc.) are another such movement that has just happened to withstand the tests of time. The so-called “traditionalist” movement is yet another such movement. All that is going on is that people are responding to what they perceive to be the needs of the Church in their day. This is nothing new in the life of the Church.

Whether or not the Renewal started among Pentecostal Protestants is another story. I’ve heard plenty of conflicting reports. Most of the Catholics that I know who have been part of the Renewal literally from day 1 would deny that it comes from Pentecostalism. No Protestants were even present when they received the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. But even if it is somewhat derived from Pentecostalism, that doesn’t de facto make it a bad thing. The Council of Trent decided to maintain Latin as the liturgical language of the Roman Mass partially in reaction to Protestantism. Pews and the famous “Roman” collar were originally adopted from Protestantism. Does that make them bad? Of course not. They are what they are.

Contrary to the popular belief among self-proclaimed “traditionalists,” the Charismatic Renewal is not all about speaking in tongues, prophecy, resting in the Spirit, etc. It is not even about emotionalism, although as has been pointed out this can certainly be a temptation especially among newcomers to the Renewal. I would speculate that the Renewal is more a reaction against an overly rationalistic approach to the Faith. It does not, of course, deny the role of reason in explaining the Faith, but it emphasizes the necessity of an experiential knowledge of the Faith. After all, our Faith is not a list of dogmas that we believe in. If it were then our religion would not be a true religion, but would rather be merely a philosophical system. Rather, our Faith is a Person, or rather a Trinity of Persons Who has revealed Himself to us. “God is the Lord, and has revealed Himself to us…” as we pray in the Byzantine East. This revelation goes beyond anything that we can comprehend intellectually. It is something that we must enter into experientially. The Father has revealed Himself through the Son, Who was incarnate… and became man!!! Through the Son and by the power of the Holy Spirit we are drawn back up to the Father and into a filial relationship with Him! Although we can touch on this mystery intellectually, in reality we barely scratch the surface with it. We must enter into that relationship in order to truly “understand,” hence we must experience in order to truly know.

This is what the Charismatic Renewal is all about. Incidentally, this brings it much closer to the great mystics of the Church, East and West, who also emphasized experiential knowledge of God over intellectual knowledge.

Some of the great fruits of the Renewal that I have personally encountered among friends and aquaintances of mine who are involved in the Renewal are such things as joy, love of neighbor, love of T/tradition (yes, it’s true), peace (both within themselves and with others), patience, etc. In short some of the great fruits I’ve encountered have been the very Fruits of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Scripture and listed in the Catechism (yes, they’re in the Baltimore Catechism). I’ve known a good number of Charismatics who eventually started attending the Extraordinary Form of the Mass exclusively while maintaining their Charismatic spirituality. Guitars, tongues, dancing, etc. really have nothing to do with the Renewal. Rather it’s about a dynamic relationship with God whereby everything about you is transformed by the grace of the Sacraments, particularly Baptism (which according to the saints the graces of Baptism can remain dormant in us for many years until we turn from our sinful ways and to the Lord). So is it really such a bad thing? Is it really un-T/traditional? 🤷
 
Ben_F said:
In 1970 I experimented with speaking in tongues. I was young. I was impressed. I wanted it so bad. I believe there are others still very much into this , as I was back then. Paul could have been talking about these spirit filled utterances that no one can understand. Maybe he even experienced it. I have a hard time not judging those that do this. We have many in our Church that do a lot of praying, walking down the isle on their knees toward the alter, making a lot of attention to theirselves. I´m sort of a pray in your closet type Christian. Never the less, I believe we should let these people go their way. If it´s real it will grow. If not. It will dissappear. Like the life at conception debate, we should err on the side of life not death. For all the Carismatics here God bless. If I should go bananas in Mass some day, then so be it. I really think Love is my main blessing that I want. I really don´t love the Lord as much as I should. God bless:thumbsup:👍👍
Click to expand...
Amen, Ben! Well said. 👍
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
. Rather, our Faith is a Person, or rather a Trinity of Persons Who has revealed Himself to us. “God is the Lord, and has revealed Himself to us…” as we pray in the Byzantine East. This revelation goes beyond anything that we can comprehend intellectually. It is something that we must enter into experientially. The Father has revealed Himself through the Son, Who was incarnate… and became man!!! Through the Son and by the power of the Holy Spirit we are drawn back up to the Father and into a filial relationship with Him! Although we can touch on this mystery intellectually, in reality we barely scratch the surface with it. We must enter into that relationship in order to truly “understand,” hence we must experience in order to truly know.

This is what the Charismatic Renewal is all about. Incidentally, this brings it much closer to the great mystics of the Church, East and West, who also emphasized experiential knowledge of God over intellectual knowledge.
Click to expand...
This is one of the best ways, I’ve seen the Charismatic Renewal explained on this forum. 👍
 
In all seriousness, why is loud (and corny…no offense) music so tied with the charismatic movement? I understand the focus of the gifts, but why is that so dependent on the music, singing, etc? It would seem more reasonable for charismatic worship to be done in silence, to give all sources of movement to the God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We know how music, both secular and religious, impacts humans; this is a good thing. If the gifts are true, then they will also come in silence, without music or “healer” or preacher. Does this ever happen? Is this ever encouraged?

This is my main issue with the movement; not the gifts themselves, but that it seems so tied with a certain situation(s) (groups, worship, music, etc) and not all situations (alone, silence, etc). I would really like feedback and answers, thank you.
 
Is a charismatic renewal a good thing? Yes I believe it is a great thing to keep in mind and rejoice in the fact that our Church is blessed with gifts from the Holy Spirit. Now is the manner in which some are celebrating this renewal a good thing? Well that’s where it gets dicey for me because I have a hard time reconciling this form of worship with scripture, the history of the Church, and with the lives of the saints.

A lot of people will say “but the Popes approve it” and I won’t disagree that they approved the idea of rejoicing over the gifts of the Holy Spirit: however, there is a big difference between approving an idea and approving a practice. The Popes also approved Liturgical reforms but did they approve the manner in which a lot of people have taken upon themselves to celebrate the OF? Nope! Yet those same people said the same thing “but the Popes approved it” as their war cry to desecrate the OF and now our Holy Father Benedict is doing his best to bring the faithful back.

We need to be charitable and vigilant.
 
Credo_in_Deum said:
A lot of people will say “but the Popes approve it” and I won’t disagree that they approved the idea of rejoicing over the gifts of the Holy Spirit: however, there is a big difference between approving an idea and approving a practice. The Popes also approved Liturgical reforms but did they approve the manner in which a lot of people have taken upon themselves to celebrate the OF? Nope! Yet those same people said the same thing “but the Popes approved it” as their war cry to desecrate the OF and now our Holy Father Benedict is doing his best to bring the faithful back.
Click to expand...
Of course, the difference is that the Pope did not give addresses to gatherings of Liturgical Innovators telling them to keep up the good work. 😛

You’re right that caution is necessary. Any renewal movement can go off tracks and need to be reigned in.
 
Scoobyshme said:
It’s basically an emotion-based thing. It tends to easily (and erroneously) lead folks to seeking emotions as the end, rather than the means. I’m tolerant of it, but just barely. I think it’s okay for folks just getting into the spiritual life, but it’s not a long-term solution by any means. It gets you all hyped up emotionally, and then leaves you nowhere to go. The essence of true spiritual life is prayer, sacrifice, self-denial, carrying the cross, and especially serving Christ, His Church, and others.
Click to expand...
exactly.

A good article on the dangers of Charismatic movements, especially for youth: cfnews.org/Steub-CFN0608.htm

The Charismatic students I’ve come into contact with thought they could speak in tongues and heal people with their touch. I doubt it.
 
ChiRho said:
exactly.

A good article on the dangers of Charismatic movements, especially for youth: cfnews.org/Steub-CFN0608.htm

The Charismatic students I’ve come into contact with thought they could speak in tongues and heal people with their touch. I doubt it.
Click to expand...
Did you miss the links above with what John Paul II and Benedict XVI have said about the movement?
 
BertBlyleven said:
In all seriousness, why is loud (and corny…no offense) music so tied with the charismatic movement? I understand the focus of the gifts, but why is that so dependent on the music, singing, etc? It would seem more reasonable for charismatic worship to be done in silence, to give all sources of movement to the God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We know how music, both secular and religious, impacts humans; this is a good thing. If the gifts are true, then they will also come in silence, without music or “healer” or preacher. Does this ever happen? Is this ever encouraged?

This is my main issue with the movement; not the gifts themselves, but that it seems so tied with a certain situation(s) (groups, worship, music, etc) and not all situations (alone, silence, etc). I would really like feedback and answers, thank you.
Click to expand...
Scripture says that the Joy of the Lord is our strength. That Joy can be expressed in music, or an outpouring of spontaneous prayer and praise, in a group or alone. In fact, if our faith is not expressed privately our public worship, traditional or charismatic, is just a show and there are those who just show up at Mass. Hence, the need for renewal in the Church and one form of renewal is the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

The ignorant use words like rubbish, just emotionalism, protestant pentecostalism, all for show, jibberish. Scripture says that the natural man cannot understand spritual things. These supposed discussions are in the natural arena, that is why there is so much animosity and name calling. Scripture says to renew our minds so as not to be conformed to this world. When there is error in any Catholic expression, and there is plenty of non-approved behavior at Mass, it must be corrected in a spiritual way and not out of natural reasoning.

I have been on this forum since 2004 and the discussion has not changed one iota. There have been excellent explanations since that time. If what you want to do is vent ignorance, you will not do prayerful research to learn but continue to post ignorance. To slander a whole group for real or imagined abuses is bigotry. That is what protestants do to us. They know a little or hear a little and slander away without real understanding. They cite personal experience or some expert or some former Catholic and think they got us pegged.

Jesus said “They will know them by their love for one another”. The only thing that this ignorant venting does is to prove that we are not the real disciples when we do this to one another. Fortunately ignorance can be overcome so there is hope for us yet, come join the hope of a spiritual discussion.
 
Joe_5859 said:
You’re right that caution is necessary. Any renewal movement can go off tracks and need to be reigned in.
Click to expand...
So, for instance, if you were at a Charismatic Mass, and the person next to you fell to the ground and started to shake tremble as an epileptic, how would you know that, that person was being baptized by the Holy Spirit? If so, how would you “test” your deduction as St. Paul ask the Thessalonians?

21 but test everything; hold fast what is good, 22 abstain from every form of evil. (1Thessalonians (RSV) 5)

Also, do communities outside of the Church get these same charisms?
 
ChiRho said:
In what way does what they have said pertain to the fact that there are often abuses?
Click to expand...
I don’t know that I would say there are “often” abuses. As far as I know, unlike some other renewal movements, the Charismatic Renewal Movement has yet to incur any “reigning in” on the part of the Vatican.

I have trouble taking seriously the one-sided reporting on a random guy who went to Steubenville with the express intent of reporting on how bad it was. If that’s the attitude you go with, then of course you’re going to see “abuse” everywhere you turn. 🤷
 
gtrenewed said:
They know a little or hear a little and slander away without real understanding. They cite personal experience or some expert or some former Catholic and think they got us pegged.
Click to expand...
How very much of all internet discourse can be described as such (with regards to any group).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top