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gtrenewed
Guest
Yeah, but we are supposed to be better. I will grant that not all who call themselves Catholic, indeed are Catholic, but still, if we are we should seek unity of love if not immediate understanding.
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Scoobyshme
Guest
I remember a friend of mine, some time back, who had shared that his sister nagged him until he went to one of these charismaniac meetings. He warned her ahead of time, though, that if he saw anything fishy, he was “outa there!”
Sure enough, they went in, and sat down, and some guy got up on the microphone and said, “Okay, we’re going to practice speaking in tongues. Everybody repeat after me. Butter pecan, butter pecan, butter pecan, butter pecan…” He said it fast, almost like another language, but not fast enough. My friend got up and told his sister, “This guy’s nuts. I’m outa here.”
Another person I know well went to one of these things, and she said people were crawling up and down the aisles, barking like dogs and hiking their legs up on the pews like they were going to pee. Seriously. You can’ t make this stuff up!
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TrueLight
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Joe_5859
Guest
I actually would agree to an extent, but probably not for the same reasons as Vennari!Lol, but there is some truth to that. Would you not agree?
I don’t know that I’d expect a balanced view of this topic from him. In the above article, I saw a prodigious use of guilt-by-association. He repeatedly called attention to every song they sung that was written by a Protestant. I know my Liturgy of the Hours book has plenty of hymns in the back written by Protestants, too.
Ironically, I find his article to be more of an appeal to emotionalism than it is a rational critique of the movement.Odd as it may seem, I don’t disagree with Vennari entirely. It has long been a source of frustration for me to attend a Holy Hour where there is little to no period of silence. I am not part of the Charismatic Renewal Movement, and some of the things he described (however one-sided an hyperbolic his description may be) make me uncomfortable as well.
But I have a great number of friends who would self-identify as “Charismatic” who really are edified by such experiences. Most of them are holier than I am, and none of them are “liberal”. So I don’t feel that my uncomfortableness with some aspects of it automatically translates into it being a heretical fusion with Protestantism.
I suppose it would be an interesting intellectual exercise to read Vennari’s book side-by-side with As by a New Pentecost: The Dramatic Beginning of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal by Patti Mansfield.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Absolutely.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Obviously they were missing the point of the whole thing!
I’ve been to many Charismatic prayer sessions/Holy hours over the years (because my friends were all going
) and I have never seen anything like that.
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
I went to a charismatic retreat even though I was a bit skeptical about the whole thing. What really gets me is that in addition to speaking in tongues during the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” there was the most beautiful singing, which amazed me because it sounded more like angels than humans. Afterwards I asked around to find out who sings like that so I could go hear them sing again. No one knew what I was talking about or remembered any singing during the speaking in tongues!!
I suspect there is something real going on when that happens.Anyway, from what I know about charismatics here in my city, they are young and orthodox and not into liturgical abuse of any kind. Lots of them kneel to receive communion and receive on the tongue. It’s definitely not a bunch of liberals.
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Irish_Polock
Guest
I would agree, although, honestly I recoiled after reading the title of your suggested book, novelties are not something I take lightly. I will make effort to understand both side though. The question remains though: how does one test such charisms? Have they* always* been accepted as ‘good’?I suppose it would be an interesting intellectual exercise to read Vennari’s book side-by-side with As by a New Pentecost: The Dramatic Beginning of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal by Patti Mansfield.
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Irish_Polock
Guest
How exactly do angels sound? Have you heard an Angel sing before?
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Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
It is sadly so common for people to point at abuses that go on within various movements within the Church and make the claim that such an abuse is the norm within that movement. Sadly that seems to be what is happening here.
I could point to the various abuses that go on within “traditionalist” Catholicism and start making the claims that all traditionalists hate Vatican II, Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI, the Ordinary Form of the Mass, etc., but I know that to do such is nothing more than a ridiculous generalization that has no foundation in either fact or truth.
My own extensive experience within the Renewal (although I am not actually a participant in the Renewal) has shown me that the majority of the objections posted in this thread are little more the straw-men, abuses that happen in the minority of cases. Having earned my undergrad at Franciscan and then attended a Charismatic parish in Ann Arbor, MI. for a few years afterwards, I can tell you that I’ve rarely seen such devotion to Eucharistic Adoration, the Mass and Sacraments, the Scriptures, the Tradition of the Church, the person of the Pope, the writings and lives of the saints especially the great mystics, etc. Likewise I have rarely experienced such joy, love of God and neighbor, peace, etc. as I have among those many charismatics with whom I had daily contact. Although I don’t personally consider myself a part of the Movement, I know that my extensive exposure to it has influenced me in a highly positive way.
Are there things within the Movement that need changing? Of course. Although I have no problem with a good amount of the music that is often associated with the Renewal, I don’t believe it has a place in the Mass. Also I don’t think speaking in tongues has a proper place within the Mass, but outside of the Mass in the setting of a prayer meeting, why not? Incidentally I do know of parishes who use tongues at the Mass, but only with the permission of their bishop (who is a very traditional and conservative man). Were the bishop to remove this favor they would cease tongues at the Mass in a heartbeat. So sure, there are things within the Renewal that need changing, but this is true of every movement within the Church, including the “traditionalist” movement.
I could point to the various abuses that go on within “traditionalist” Catholicism and start making the claims that all traditionalists hate Vatican II, Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI, the Ordinary Form of the Mass, etc., but I know that to do such is nothing more than a ridiculous generalization that has no foundation in either fact or truth.
My own extensive experience within the Renewal (although I am not actually a participant in the Renewal) has shown me that the majority of the objections posted in this thread are little more the straw-men, abuses that happen in the minority of cases. Having earned my undergrad at Franciscan and then attended a Charismatic parish in Ann Arbor, MI. for a few years afterwards, I can tell you that I’ve rarely seen such devotion to Eucharistic Adoration, the Mass and Sacraments, the Scriptures, the Tradition of the Church, the person of the Pope, the writings and lives of the saints especially the great mystics, etc. Likewise I have rarely experienced such joy, love of God and neighbor, peace, etc. as I have among those many charismatics with whom I had daily contact. Although I don’t personally consider myself a part of the Movement, I know that my extensive exposure to it has influenced me in a highly positive way.
Are there things within the Movement that need changing? Of course. Although I have no problem with a good amount of the music that is often associated with the Renewal, I don’t believe it has a place in the Mass. Also I don’t think speaking in tongues has a proper place within the Mass, but outside of the Mass in the setting of a prayer meeting, why not? Incidentally I do know of parishes who use tongues at the Mass, but only with the permission of their bishop (who is a very traditional and conservative man). Were the bishop to remove this favor they would cease tongues at the Mass in a heartbeat. So sure, there are things within the Renewal that need changing, but this is true of every movement within the Church, including the “traditionalist” movement.
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Neil_Anthony
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That’s what I’m wondering after that retreat with the charismaticsHave you heard an Angel sing before?
po18guy
Well-known member
“Catholic Family News” again? A publication that is widely read by all 13 subscribers. IMO, author J*** V****** is a constant voice of dissent. I know not if he and his ilk are schismatic/sedevacantist/SSPX or what. I do know that they are disrespectful toward the Church, highly critical of EWTN, appear to value disobedience as a virtue, and have appointed themselves as the sole propagators of the true faith. Their efforts would be laughable, if they weren’t leading souls astray.I’ve been looking around that site a little more. The guy sells a DVD called Vatican II: The Best Council the Protestants Ever Had.
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Irish_Polock
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Leading souls astray? Really? And you have made this judgement - yourself? What exactly do you find damning in his article - about the Charismatic Movement?
Also, since you seem like you might know the answer, I’ll ask you. How does one “test” these charisms to know that they are indeed “good”?
po18guy
Well-known member
Have you read his other writings? Have you seen their beliefs? Have you done any research into this group at all?
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Irish_Polock
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Yes, I am one of the “13” that you spoke of. CFN believes that the N.O. is indeed valid, and the are by no means Sedevacantists or have ever claimed to be.
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wondrousgnat
Guest
The Charismatic Renewal had a mjor part in my converting to the Catholic faith. I was in it for about 15 years until my group faded. I still miss it.
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Irish_Polock
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Did our beloved Saints - the ones, that some have said were in possession of these same gifts - need this type of movement in order to receive these gifts? Or did they receive them without a participation in any said movement?
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Credo_in_Deum
Guest
Also did they go searching for specific gifts? Did they boast about having these gifts? Does Paul tell use to be eager for these gifts or the greater ones like Charity? If the gifts these people have are truly from the Holy Spirit why do they need to practice?
Do we see the Renewal doing the same things as the Apostles before the Holy Spirit came down upon them like praying and fasting? Can’t these gifts be misused? How do we know the Renewal is using these gifts properly? Don’t get me wrong converts are awesome but shouldn’t we be worried about quality rather than quantity?npatrol:
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Phillip_Rolfes
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The saints were indeed often members of such movements, in fact they were often founders of such movements. Sts. Francis and Dominc we the founders of the movment of mendicant orders, something which did not exist prior to them. Sts. Thomas Aquinas and Bonaventure were members of this same movement and great defenders of it. Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross were founders and members of a reform movement within the Carmelite Order. The Fathers of the Council of Trent, including Sts. Pius V and Charles Boromeo, participated in the movement to reform the Roman Liturgy of their time (as well, I might add, in the movement to suppress certain liturgical rites that had been in use for quite some time among the faith in certain areas), In short, there is no shortage of saints who were either members of such a movement or founders of them. Again, movements within the Church are merely the faithful responding to the perceived needs of their time. The Charismatic Renewal is one such movement, as is the so-called “traditionalist” movement.
And to deny that a substantial number of the saints did not possess various gifts of the Holy Spirit, including some of the gifts promoted within the Charismatic Renewal, either betrays a remarkable ignorance of the lives of the saints and gifts of the Holy Spirit, or can be chalked up to a lapse in memory (of which I have many
).
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Phillip_Rolfes
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If memory serves me correctly, Paul does encourage the faithful to actively seek the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including speaking in tongues and prophecy. I believe you’ll find the pertinent passages in 1 Corinthians somewhere. But Paul also emphasizes that these gifts have their proper place and function. And of course Paul encourages that we all strive after the gift of love above all things, because all other gifts will cease when we “no longer see dimly, as in a mirror, but face to face.” In the Charismatic events that I’ve been to this order has almost always been maintained. The “extraordinary” gifts of prophecy and tongues are encouraged, but love - both of God and of neighbor - is encouraged above all things.Also did they go searching for specific gifts? Did they boast about having these gifts? Does Paul tell use to be eager for these gifts or the greater ones like Charity? If the gifts these people have are truly from the Holy Spirit why do they need to practice?
No, the saints did not boast of their gifts, and often tried to hide them out of humility. But not all charismatics boast of these gifts either, and many do indeed try to hide them. I know some who only pray in tongues during their private prayer time and out of the earshot of others.
As to whether or not the people in the Renewal do the same thing as the Apostles on Pentecost, or that St. Paul encouraged, biblical scholars say that yes indeed, this is one possible interpretation of what happened at Pentecost and in the early Church.
Of course all gifts can be misused. The gift of free will is the most frequently misused, followed, of course, by the gift of reason. But just because a gift is misused does not de facto make the gift (or the Giver by implication) bad or any less a true gift.
The way we know whether or not any movement within the Church is using its gifts and/or its charism (role within the Church) properly is by trusting in the competent authorities to pass judgment. As has been pointed out time and again in this thread, the past several Popes have all been supporters of the Renewal. John Paul II is often said to have been a member of the Renewal, although you’ll not find that in writing. It also seems that the large majority of bishops in the Church are also supporters of the Renewal, as there are active groups in nearly ever diocese, at least here in the States.
As to whether or not members of the Renewal practice fasting, prayer, etc., I can affirm that with a resounding “yes.” Often times they are the most enthusiastic, voluntarily fasting on Fridays when the Church at large seems to have abandoned this practice, some even fast on Wednesdays as well. Many that I’ve known faithfully pray Morning and Evening Prayer from the Liturgy of the Hours, attend daily Mass, and go to Confession on a regular basis! Many attend regular prayer meetings, where they gather with their brothers and sisters in Christ outside of a liturgical context to offer prayers of praise, adoration and thanksgiving to our God Who has bestowed so many great blessings upon us.
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