Charismatic Catholicism?

[ChiRho]

Would you pray for me then?

Surely

 

[mlz]

I dropped out of the conversation because I could see that sometimes it comes to a point where there are 2 viewpoints and neither one is going to convince the other. But if we say, “I’ll pray for you” it doesn’t necessarily mean I’ll pray for you to see it MY way or I’m holier than you, I think sometimes in frustration we come to the point of knowing we need to give it all to the Lord in prayer and thinking of the other person that differs from you and remembering them as a brother and sister in Christ and praying for them.

I can only share what I know to be true for me. The Charismatic Renewal has change my life for the better, in fact I’ve grown so much closer to the Lord because of it and now closer to His Church. That can’t be a bad thing and I’m grateful to our wonderful Lord for this. This is my testimony. I know other have theirs too, I can only speak for me.

Blessings to all my brothers and sisters in Christ,
mlz

 

[Irish_Polock]

No, it contradicts most of what the church teaches on the gift of tongues and he even takes scripture out of context such as 1 corinthians 13:8.

Can you point me to any infallible teachings of the church in regards to speaking in tongues and the the way they are suppose to be received? I feel , John Salza is a reputable source as far as biblical scholarship, would you disagree? I could have brought forth a large array of other scholars and theologians of the more traditional verity, but I thought Mr. Salza was a good compromise.

Now there is truth in some of what he said if put in the right context. The gift of tongues is perhaps the primary gift that can be used for personal edification. It can be your own personal prayer language to God, a language you have never sinned in.

Can you provide authentic magisterial teaching concerning the bolded?

You must understand what was happening in the corinthian church. A lot of what he said was accurate about what was going on. There were a lot of prideful people, and what he was trying to say is that if tongues is spoken in a prophetic way at a meeting(in the corinthian church what was happening is everyone was speaking in tongues at the same time and it was just a great clashing that helped nobody). [Then only one person should speak at a time and either that person or another person must be able to interpret the tongue. I know of one person that has this gift of interpreting tongues.**

So does the bolded happen at CCR event? Unquestionably? You say you know of one person whom can translate, does this one person translate all whom speak in tongues that cannot translate their speech themselves at all events in your parish, or is there possibly someone else?
rugger4christ;8321263:

Now at a lot of meetings you will see many people all praising God in tongues, this is not what St. Paul is talking about. It is fine for people to praise God in tongues and in their own language, but it is not edifying if someone speaks a message in tongues for the group and nobody can interpret.

Could you cite scripturally or magisterially your understanding of “prayer tongue “ versus a “prophetic tongue“? I have seen videos of numerous people speaking in tongue, without an obvious translator, and surely not speaking in turn. Is this supported by authentic magisterial teachings. I need undeniable proof that scripture and tradition have taught that, praising God in gibberish is accepted by our Church, since historically it is not supported well.

When I have been prayed over in tongues without an interpretation it has always been a very powerful thing for me and I can feel the presence of God powerfully. Speaking in tongues allows a person to be more greatly used by the holy spirit because it takes a great deal of humility for a person to babble in public. You really have to yield to God for this gift to operate.

Again, there is an apparent difference in this type of prayer, then what St. Paul spoke of. Could you please elaborate? Where does authentic Church teachings expand on this use of the HS? I would think that that after the first few times of “yielding” to the spirit it would become normalized and less-yielding. This seem like a psychological barrier more then a spiritual barrier.

1 Corinthians 12:31 “31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
And I show you a still more excellent way” St. Paul told us we not only must seek the greatest gifts but we must do so eagerly or earnestly. Why? The gifts are in general not for our personal benefit but for the benefit of God’s people for us to use in service through love. Did Jesus’s gift of healing benefit himself or others more? What about his gift of miracles?

I have always felt that St. Paul was speaking of greatest gift which is love, which you touched on in an odd way, St. Paul spoke of the gift of love never ending, although prophecy, tongues and even intellect “passing away”. Love the basis for all these gifts - as you implied - has never, and will never “pass away”. St. Chrysostom coined it well:

[2.] Now then after that in every way he had shown her to be very exceedingly great, again he doth so from another most important head, by a fresh comparison exalting her dignity, and saying thus; “but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease.” For if both these were brought in in order to the faith; when that is every where sown abroad, the use of these is henceforth superfluous. But the loving one another shall not cease, rather it shall even advance further, both here and hereafter, and then more than now. For here there are many things that Weaken our love; wealth, business, passions of the body, disorders of the soul; but there none of these. (Chrysostom on 1Cor 3401)

Love has never been “lost” or has it “diminished” within our Mother Church, lest the deceiver has prevailed and the promise of Christ was for naught. The greatest of gifts - love - has been preserved and protected by our mighty God, as Sacred Scripture has taught us.

I would like a link to the article please. If this quote is legit and in the context it appears here than he is simply wrong. At the charismatic conferences I have gone to devotion to Mary is usually the third thing spoken of, 1st being giving your life to Christ and 2nd being filled with the holy spirit. We usually say a hail mary at the beginning of every prayer meeting we have.

Honestly, I have no subscription to Charisma Magazine - although, I did search for it via their web-site. I got it from this link though: unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/WhatSpirit1.html

 

[Irish_Polock]

I dropped out of the conversation because I could see that sometimes it comes to a point where there are 2 viewpoints and neither one is going to convince the other. But if we say, “I’ll pray for you” it doesn’t necessarily mean I’ll pray for you to see it MY way or I’m holier than you, I think sometimes in frustration we come to the point of knowing we need to give it all to the Lord in prayer and thinking of the other person that differs from you and remembering them as a brother and sister in Christ and praying for them.

I can only share what I know to be true for me. The Charismatic Renewal has change my life for the better, in fact I’ve grown so much closer to the Lord because of it and now closer to His Church. That can’t be a bad thing and I’m grateful to our wonderful Lord for this. This is my testimony. I know other have theirs too, I can only speak for me.

Blessings to all my brothers and sisters in Christ,
mlz

Yes, I agree. PLUS, I do need all the intercession I can get, I am in DIRE need of everyone’s prayers, I assure you.

I can only offer my wisdom - and it indeed, it might only be “my wisdom” - in these matters and hope to absorb others wisdom. I can only hope to help someone in a juxtaposition in their faith, and hope and pray that another can help a sinner like me…

 

[gtrenewed]

No judgmental at all really. It’s not wrong to ask what type of converts certain movements bring in. Do these people become Cathoilcs faithful to the Church or do they become wolfs in sheeps clothing.

This is an interesting statement. Your saying I shouldn’t pay attention to what goes on in the Church or be cautious because to do so would be to have very little faith in Church leadership. You do realize that the leaders of the Church rely on the faithful to help them don’t you? When there is a liturgical abuse going on in a parish does God just beam the knowledge into the Bishops head?

My comments were based on your statement “shouldn’t we be worried about the quality of the converts” coming from the Charismatic Renewal".

Most people that worry have a pre-conceived idea of the end result, which is usually premature and judgemental. Yes it is wrong to ask what type of convert is coming in because by definition they start as babes to grow into mature. Let them make a mistake, correct them, repeat as necessary just as with a cradle Catholic. The leadership has a process in place.

Liturgical abuse does not equate to a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

To say “beam” indicates to me a disdain for spiritual gifts such as the word of knowledge. Scripture and early church fathers relate how the Holy Spirit warned them about certain situations. That is part of the deposit of faith.

Of course we help but it seems some are all to eager to “help” rather than trying to work it out a the local level.

 

[Denise1957]

In post #181 above, a link was provided to an article on CR which I read an found to be insightful in that it tries to interpret CR by judging the movement itself, and its leadership, rather than the average follower of the movement. I found the first few paragraphs to be of interest:

"The Catholic Church, as is proclaimed in the Second Vatican Council’s Lumen Gentium, is the enduring light of all nations.

She was established by Our Lord Himself, who guaranteed that she would never be overcome by error, preach untruth, nor fail in her essential mission of sanctification and salvation, of incorporating those beloved and elect of God into the Divine life of Christ, for the Church is His very Body. Therefore, she can never lose her essential holiness, nor can she ever lack any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit necessary for her extention and edification; she can NEVER lose, not even provisionally, any means whereby she sanctifies her faithful members.

Yet, throughout the nearly two-thousand years since her founding upon the Rock of Peter, she certainly has been no stranger to individuals and movements which make the presumptuous claim to know better than the Church, to surpass her institutional boundaries, and to possess a unique and exclusive relationship to the Holy Spirit.

Indeed, there have been many would-be prophets of new and extraordinary revelations, or spiritual manifestations which they claim add to or surpass the deposit of faith committed to the safekeeping of the Apostles and their successors. Such individuals often present themselves as the chosen prophets of a new Advent or apocalyptic revelation, or a new method of sanctification, or a short cut to mystical enlightenment. At times demanding nothing less than that the Church take them at their word, they inevitably claim to be the elect of the elect, the chosen elite of a new birth of Spiritual insight. Throughout her recoreded history, such incidents have been the rule rahter than the exception."

Here’s the article:

unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/WhatSpirit1.html

 

[trdchubi]

Whatever you guys think, or whatever was said against The Catholic Charismatic renewal, here is a simple admission of faith.

I am a Catholic Charismatic, since high school. Most of what I learned about the Catholic faith was nurtured around a Parish base Charismatic community. Deeper relationship with God, understanding the Holy Scriptures, being enthusiastic in worship, lively praises to God, inviting the Holy Spirit to touch us are some of the few things that I value the most.

I cannot impose these wonderful things to people, but through countless experiences and miraculous events, I would not settle for less.

God is great, He deserves my outmost adoration and worship. I was made worthy to praise Him through the sacrifice of His son Yeshua (Jesus) on the cross. With the guidance and prompting of the Holy Spirit I will always proclaim His love endures forever.

Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[Irish_Polock]

I am a Catholic Charismatic, since high school. Most of what I learned about the Catholic faith was nurtured around a Parish base Charismatic community. Deeper relationship with God, understanding the Holy Scriptures, being enthusiastic in worship, lively praises to God, inviting the Holy Spirit to touch us are some of the few things that I value the most.

Do you feel that your spirituality or faith would have suffered if you had never been exposed to the CCR? Or, do you think that you might not have ever found your faith due to the Church having “lost” this form of spirituality?

I cannot impose these wonderful things to people, but through countless experiences and miraculous events, I would not settle for less.

If the CCR somehow gets reigned in, or if Rome orders a cease and desist, where would you be then? These are both possibilities with this movement, however unlikely.

 

[EzraJacob]

I think I like the bit more traditional approach to the faith. And my spirituality is not lacking much. I find great power in the Rosary.

 

[vardaquinn]

So you would disagree with the dogmatic teaching of our Mother Church, with regards to her indefectibility, essential holiness, uniqueness as the “one only Church” and her full and unfailing possession of the means of sanctification?

How could your statement of:

…not contradict the infallible dogmatic teachings of her being indefectibe and unfailing? I do not see the errors promulgated by her that you are seeing. I do not see her having lost anything.

Should have been more clear. By Church I was referring more specifically to the people in general. The majority of Christians in the Church lost this understanding. It was not a loss of doctrine - indeed the teaching of the Magisterium on the Holy Spirit and the charismatic dimension of the faith has always been consistent. This teaching was less commonly understood, however. Even if it was lived out.

The Church itself has proclaimed that the Church is always in need of renewal and upbuilding, however.

 

[vardaquinn]

I think I like the bit more traditional approach to the faith. And my spirituality is not lacking much. I find great power in the Rosary.

It’s not an either/or sort of thing at all. I pray the Rosary every day, and I pray in tongues everyday. I find great power in both. And this is a more traditional approach to the faith - as traditional as it gets. You know the first thing the Catholic Church ever did, if you want to be technical, was speak in tongues (see Acts 2). These things are not in opposition whatsoever.

 

[vardaquinn]

Is it the norm for individuals to pray the Rosary at the events? If not why?

I don’t know, depends on the event. At a prayer meeting, no, and I wouldn’t expect that to be the case. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a Marian element. The prayer meetings I’ve gone to all have hymns to the Blessed Mother.

 

[vardaquinn]

Can you point me to any infallible teachings of the church in regards to speaking in tongues and the the way they are suppose to be received?

Well, there’s certainly no dogma about it. There’s what’s said in the Catechism, and some church documents. But what’s really infallible would be what’s mentioned in the Scripture. There’s no official thing I’ve seen about “how to receive it”, and I don’t see any need for one. I can point you to good orthodox theologians (especially Ralph Martin) that speak about receiving it. There’s no specific “how to receive it” sort of deal. It differs depending on the person.

 

[vardaquinn]

Do you feel that your spirituality or faith would have suffered if you had never been exposed to the CCR? Or, do you think that you might not have ever found your faith due to the Church having “lost” this form of spirituality? .

Can’t speak for him, but in my own life… my spiritual life would definitely have suffered. I was exposed to it over a year ago, and it dramatically changed by spiritual life and drastically helped me along. It was very necessary in my spiritual life.

If the CCR somehow gets reigned in, or if Rome orders a cease and desist, where would you be then? These are both possibilities with this movement, however unlikely.

Then I would stick with Rome and trust in God’s will. But Rome will never do that, because they would be absolutely contradicting themselves. And they would also be attacking Church teaching. I don’t think you understand at all what the CCR actually is and what it’s saying.

 

[vardaquinn]

@ Irish_Polock: read 1 Corinthians 14.

 

[Irish_Polock]

@ Irish_Polock: read 1 Corinthians 14.

I shall go over this chapter tonight, and do my best to give it all I have.

Cheers.

 

[trdchubi]

Do you feel that your spirituality or faith would have suffered if you had never been exposed to the CCR? Or, do you think that you might not have ever found your faith due to the Church having “lost” this form of spirituality?

Most definitely, going to mass on Sunday is one thing but that just it, a routine. It never goes deep. I have seen people who have the sincerest intentions to go to mass but practice different set of values after the Sunday service and to be honest I am one of them.

The homily and sermons in my opinion would not suffice, one hour or two would not be enough, since “I thirst” for God. I want to know God. Questions would not have been answered, like why would I “Go in peace and proclaim the Good news of our salvation or Go in peace to love and serve the Lord”. When I myself knew little about salvation and am not in peace.

If the CCR somehow gets reigned in, or if Rome orders a cease and desist, where would you be then? These are both possibilities with this movement, however unlikely.

I am Cradle Catholic, and my learning of the Catholic faith would have suffered greatly without the CCR. My exposure to people who openly attacked the Catholic Church and the numerous scandals that barrage the Priesthood today would have damaged my spiritual beliefs and my staying within the church walls. Yes, I might end up being agnostic.

Good thing is, that is not my case now. The scriptures says, “ If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.” James 1:5.

The CCR opened my eyes to the faith within the Catholic church. Knowing what the Catholic Church stands for gave me the zeal to defend it from its detractors. The community of renewed Catholics united in defending the Catholic church made me even better. Questions were answered from Lay people who experienced the same things I experienced. Knowing you’re not alone in the struggles in life gave me a sense of relief and knowing God is not a cosmic police gave me Peace.

The Catholic Charismatic Community I serve in is following the strictest Catholic guidelines and is very much faithful to the Magisterium. It is a communion of families and a community of persons, called together as one people through a moment of encounter and a process of renewal, to a relationship of faith, hope and love with God.

I serve with my family. We get to experience a deeper meaning within the church and that to me is priceless. Rome would definitely benefit from the CCR. We still adhere and focus on the welfare of the basic unit of the society, the family.

The Charismatic Renewal is in and for the Church, not alongside the Church. In fact it is not against the church as people understand it. Traditionalism and Charismatic go hand in hand. To be specific, in the role of Parish renewal of individuals and families.

I am a product of that renewal.

Shalom

 

[EzraJacob]

It’s not an either/or sort of thing at all. I pray the Rosary every day, and I pray in tongues everyday. I find great power in both. And this is a more traditional approach to the faith - as traditional as it gets. You know the first thing the Catholic Church ever did, if you want to be technical, was speak in tongues (see Acts 2). These things are not in opposition whatsoever.

To be fair though, the Apostles spoke in tongues as in different languages, in which all the Jewish Pilgrims in Jerusalem at the time could understand. All I know, is that which is similar to what thous “pentacostals” do is speak gibberish.

I don’t mean to be rude, but I am very…suspicious, maybe?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I don’t mean to be rude, but I am very…suspicious, maybe?

My own personal experience is that when there is a group speaking in tongues it is accompanied by a powerful movement of the Holy Spirit that I can sense/feel. I’m naturally a bit of a skeptic(in the sense that I think some people are too easily convinced of things like this) but I can’t really explain my experience away. Usually what I experience is very powerful internal prayer that takes on a life of its own as if directed by God, accompanied by overwhelming emotion. So I think the charism is real. If there is some psychological explanation I would like to know about it.

 

[EzraJacob]

My own personal experience is that when there is a group speaking in tongues it is accompanied by a powerful movement of the Holy Spirit that I can sense/feel. I’m naturally a bit of a skeptic(in the sense that I think some people are too easily convinced of things like this) but I can’t really explain my experience away. Usually what I experience is very powerful internal prayer that takes on a life of its own as if directed by God, accompanied by overwhelming emotion. So I think the charism is real. If there is some psychological explanation I would like to know about it.

Thats the word I was looking for “skeptic”.

But if you find a profound movement and spiritual sense, then good for you. I am glad to hear such, and pray for the best for you and all who may find a spiritual oasis in such.

For me though, the most profound spiritual movement within my soul I have ever felt, has always been at mass. Smaller moments through Rosary and Divine Mercy and even during meditation(on Cross, Christ, Mary, Saints, etc).