Charismatic Evangelical Church transforming christianity

[JesusforMadrid]

Does truth not matter? All of these different churches hold to widely divergent theologies on the most fundamental issues, including the issue of soteriology. Therefore, it is hard to say that all of these people formally belong to the same church, and that all of them believe the same truth. Either that, or holding to true doctrine doesn’t matter. Which is it?

Can truth manifest itself in contradictory ways?

We also believe that there is one Church, and that it belongs to Christ, not the Pope. Please consider reading up on what we believe about the papacy.

My argument is slightly different: diversity of religious alternatives is good for Christ’s body, which is His Church. In practical terms, my local evangelical parish is likely to be more responsive to the needs of all people in my city if there are alternatives for those people, be they Roman Catholic, Anglo Catholic, Ethiopian Catholic, whatever. When people can vote with their feet, Churches become better.

I think it is very interesting that Catholic churches are embracing Evangelical approaches today, such as the Purpose Driven model or the Alpha Course.

Of course I think that truth is important; it would be difficult to follow “The Way, the Truth and The Life” were it not. I do believe that the Roman Catholic Church contains truth, as revealed in the Bible and the early Creeds. However, it is also flawed in its interpretations of those truths in several important ways.

Does the Roman church have a perfect understanding of God?Does the Roman Church fully understand the Trinity? No, for it would need to be God to do so. Does its message contain sufficient truth for salvation? How about other churches?That is the key question.

 

[djrakowski]

My argument is slightly different: diversity of religious alternatives is good for Christ’s body, which is His Church. In practical terms, my local evangelical parish is likely to be more responsive to the needs of all people in my city if there are alternatives for those people, be they Roman Catholic, Anglo Catholic, Ethiopian Catholic, whatever. When people can vote with their feet, Churches become better.

I think it is very interesting that Catholic churches are embracing Evangelical approaches today, such as the Purpose Driven model or the Alpha Course.

You’re still not addressing whether truth matters. You’re only talking about meeting felt needs, which is independent of teaching the truth. Met needs are great, but the truth is what gets us to heaven.

There’s nothing wrong with the Purpose-Driven model or Alpha courses as long as their teachings align with the teachings of the Catholic Church. As I understand it, Alpha was started by Anglicans, and has been modified to suit the needs of other churches, including Catholicism. But it didn’t just drop into Catholicism unmodified, because unmodified, it doesn’t teach Catholicism.

 

[Cardinalsong]

There is only one Church, Christ’s. That it is manifested in different ways doesn’t take away from the unity of the Holy Spirit.

The fact is, competition is good. In Europe, where there are “monopoly” churches–i.e. Roman Catholic dominated countries such as Portugal, Italy and Spain; Anglican dominated countries such as England and Wales; Lutheran dominated countries such as the Scandinavian countries and Finland–there is also less spiritual life. In the US, where there probably are 40,000 denominations or more (if you consider every independent Evangelical church a denonomination), there is far greater church attendance. Indeed, in Protestant America, the Roman Church is much stronger (in terms of % of practicing Roman Catholics as a share of the total Roman Catholic population) than in Catholic Spain, Italy and Portugal.

The reason: more competition is good for Christianity, just as it is good for the marketplace. Churches who know that they have to serve their parishoners or they will go elsewhere generally do a better job of that service.

I wish we had 40,000 denominations in Spain. The Evangelical Church would be stronger and so would the Roman Catholic church.

Regardless, there is only one Christian Church and it is Christ’s, not the Pope’s.

Competition is good?? Now I’ve heard everything!

 

[JesusforMadrid]

You’re still not addressing whether truth matters. You’re only talking about meeting felt needs, which is independent of teaching the truth. Met needs are great, but the truth is what gets us to heaven.

There’s nothing wrong with the Purpose-Driven model or Alpha courses as long as their teachings align with the teachings of the Catholic Church. As I understand it, Alpha was started by Anglicans, and has been modified to suit the needs of other churches, including Catholicism. But it didn’t just drop into Catholicism unmodified, because unmodified, it doesn’t teach Catholicism.

Sorry, I reedited in my original post.

Of course I think that truth is important; it would be difficult to follow “The Way, the Truth and The Life” were it not. I do believe that the Roman Catholic Church contains truth, as revealed in the Bible and the early Creeds. However, it is also flawed in its interpretations of those truths in several important ways.

Does the Roman church have a perfect understanding of God?Does the Roman Church fully understand the Trinity? No, for it would need to be God to do so. Does its message contain sufficient truth for salvation? How about other churches?That is the key question.

 

[djrakowski]

Competition is good?? Now I’ve heard everything!

Exactly… competition can only be good in a form of Christianity in which truth doesn’t matter. That form of Christianity is not found in the Catholic Church.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Competition is good?? Now I’ve heard everything!

You heard it first here. By the way, this is demonstrably true. So fire away, baby!

 

[Peterdiago]

Does the Roman church have a perfect understanding of God?

Yes, she does. Do individual members of the Church Militant? No.

it would need to be God to do so.

She is the Body of Christ - how much more divine does she need to be to understand her husband?

Does its message contain sufficient truth for salvation? How about other churches?That is the key question.

The other churches DO NOT HAVE their own message - they have a bastardized, corrupted, cut-down, watered-down, poor-man’s version of the truth of Christianity - which is Catholic.

Competition is only good when people need different things - and that is not what people need. People need a single thing - which is Catholicism. Every single aspect of competition which you cite is division, and a direct afront to the words of Christ.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Exactly… competition can only be good in a form of Christianity in which truth doesn’t matter. That form of Christianity is not found in the Catholic Church.

No no, re read my earlier posts. I am saying that competition is good for the Catholic Church, in your opinion the only “True” church. I am saying that the Catholic Church is much stronger in areas where it faces competition–the US, South Africa, South America–than where if doesn’t-e.g. Spain.

If competition is good for the Catholic Church, and the Roman Church is good, than indeed competition is indeed good.

 

[Peterdiago]

the Catholic Church, in your opinion the only “True” church.

Also in the opinion of the VAST majority of all Christians who have ever lived, the entire population of Heaven, and God.

I find our supporters to be impressive.

Competition is NOT good - because it leads to the fact that people may choose a church which is flawed. Your argument proceeds from the error that other churches are just different, and not inferior.

Competition means that there are churches which do not hold the same things as the Catholic Church to be true. This means they are wrong. Therefore, competition causes people to believe in things which are not the truth.

Bear in mind until Luther began his Reformation there was a single Church in Europe - and that there was no competition. The Protestant Reformation and the spread of that heresy has been responsible for the secularization of the world.

You have a faulty cause and effect model - you see a general sense of lukewarmedness and secularization, and fail to see that it itself is due to the Protestant heresy. It is NOT mitigated or made better by the advancement of heresy. Evil is NEVER a good idea.

 

[djrakowski]

Sorry, I reedited in my original post.

Of course I think that truth is important; it would be difficult to follow “The Way, the Truth and The Life” were it not. I do believe that the Roman Catholic Church contains truth, as revealed in the Bible and the early Creeds. However, it is also flawed in its interpretations of those truths in several important ways.

Does the Roman church have a perfect understanding of God?Does the Roman Church fully understand the Trinity? No, for it would need to be God to do so. Does its message contain sufficient truth for salvation? How about other churches?That is the key question.

What did it mean when Jesus prayed that we would be one (John 17:11)? What did Jesus mean when he said, “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.” (John 16:13)? Of which church of those with conflicting doctrines is St. Paul speaking when he says “if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15)? To which of these conflicting churches are we to take disputes to be settled (Matthew 18:17)?

In other words, on each of the matters on which Christians disagree, there can only be one right answer. Competition between Christian churches, which you assert is good because it meets the needs of Christians in the community, ignores truth because it blurs the line between the differences to which these churches hold.

So I hold to my analysis that, in your model of church competition that thinks totally different and conflicting truth claims are good for the body of Christ, truth must not really matter.

 

[djrakowski]

No no, re read my earlier posts. I am saying that competition is good for the Catholic Church, in your opinion the only “True” church. I am saying that the Catholic Church is much stronger in areas where it faces competition–the US, South Africa, South America–than where if doesn’t-e.g. Spain.

If competition is good for the Catholic Church, and the Roman Church is good, than indeed competition is indeed good.

Either you’re backing off your earlier comments in which competition is good for the body of Christ, or you’re admitting what we believe, which is everyone who is Christian is so, whether they know it or not, because of the ministry of the Catholic Church.

It is not merely my opinion that this is the one true church - it is historically factual (and defensible), as well.

 

[Fidelis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusforMadrid
The Economist magazine had an interesting article on the rise of Pentacostal/charismatic Christianity.
Forget theology for a minute: one thing that is heartening for Evangelicals, and must be depressing for Roman Catholics, is how the Evangelical Church is growing in Latin America, Africa and China, mostly the charismatic brand of Evangelical Christianity. China is now the second largest nation of practicing Christians (estimated 100 million), the large majority of whom are Evangelicals.

I am always amused when non-Catholic Christians crow about things like this. For one thing, you need to broaden your source material besides selected articles and anecdotal evidence. If you do so, you will learn that the growth in fervent forms of religion is indeed growing in those countries, however it is not merely a Pentecostal/Evangelical/Charismatic/Fundamentalist Protestant phenomena. In fact, it a neck and neck race between these sects, Roman Catholicism, and Islam. Here are a couple of articles (by a Protestant author) that may help you broaden your perspective on this:

catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0018.html
catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0026.html

The second amusing part of this is putting it into historical perspective. John Henry Newman, famous convert from Protestantism once said: “To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.” Modern Evangelicalism has only been around less than 200 years. The Catholic Church, however, has been around more that 2000 years. In that time, She has seen them come, and seen them go.

To take just one example, look at Arianism, a robust and agressive popular heresy that, from the 4th through the 7th centuries threatened to swallow the Catholic Church, so much so that at one point up to 75% of the Christians were Arian. But the Church outlasted it, and it is now merely a historical footnote. This is also, incidently, now slowly becoming the case with the original “Reformation” churches. Soon they’ll all be museums. It is my opinion that, when it comes to modern Protestantism, “This too shall pass.” But the Catholic Church rolls on and on…

 

[MariaG]

If competition is good for the Catholic Church, and the Roman Church is good, than indeed competition is indeed good.

Respectfully, are you using the “Catholic Church” and the “Roman Church” interchangably? This is confusing as well as rude.

We are the Catholic Church. In the Catholic Church there is also a Roman Rite of which is only ONE of the rites that are in communion with the Pope. Only when trying to differentiate between rites withing the Catholic Church, has the Catholic Church ever self-identified as the Roman Church.

We are the Catholic Church and identify ourselves as such in all official documents of the Church except in the aforementioned exceptions. Since your usage is not one of those exceptions, it would be polite to refer to a church by the name that she has always laid claim to.

Respectfully,
Maria

 

[JimO]

Forget theology for a minute: one thing that is heartening for Evangelicals, and must be depressing for Roman Catholics…

Why do you presume that Catholics would be depressed if people are finding Jesus Christ? I would hope that all could find Him through the Catholic Church, but I’d rather them find Him somewhere else than not at all. Would you be depressed if the trend changed and millions began finding Jesus through the Catholic Church?

Also, the fruits of the Spirit are often manifested in subtle, quiet ways resulting in the believer showing the love of Christ in personal ways, one person at a time. They don’t have to be manifested dramatically in public. Your personal observations of the “fruits” in individuals is certainly no measure of them. Most of the fruits are internal and cannot be observed by the casual observer. Can you judge a man’s heart? You say that you see more “fruits of the Spirit” in those who join Evangelical churches than those who call themselves Roman Catholic. Well, a lot of people call themselves Roman Catholic just like many people call themselves Christians. That doesn’t mean they are serious about their faith or have a relationship with Christ.

 

[Peterdiago]

Why do you presume that Catholics would be depressed if people are finding Jesus Christ? I would hope that all could find Him through the Catholic Church, but I’d rather them find Him somewhere else than not at all.

He’s not there - no other church has the Sacraments where Jesus Christ is really and substantially present. Only the RCC has those.

Therefore, these people are NOT finding Jesus - they are learning a series of half-truths about him. It would be like saying that someone who ears McDonalds and wears Nikes is an American; they are not, and no American would suggest that they were.

Well, a lot of people call themselves Roman Catholic just like many people call themselves Christians. That doesn’t mean they are serious about their faith or have a relationship with Christ.

But only Roman Catholics have the chance and opportunity for the relationship with Christ which He himself demanded. Other Churches can have some sort of relationship, but it is not the relationship which Christ wanted.

I find it interesting that you have this in your signature;

“Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” - Peter

And yet you appear to be arguing exactly the opposite. That quote follows the hard teaching on the Eucharist - something which every single non-Catholic rejects. St. Peter says that after many others have left (John 6:66 - easiest Bible verse to remember!) because of the Eucharistic discourse.

Don’t you see that this is exactly what the Protestant heresy has done? It has caused many to leave Christ’s Church and follow the traditions of men. It has caused people to leave the one who has the words of eternal life.

Non-Catholics do NOT have the full relationship with Christ that Catholics can have, and they can NEVER approach the level of relationship that a Catholic can. A Catholic can approach Jesus Christ in the flesh; body, blood, soul and divinity. That’s a level of relationship no Protestant can ever achieve.

That is why Protestantism should be fought with every fibre of our being - because it makes lowers the bar for what a relationship is and can be. Shoot for the moon and you’ll land among the stars even if you miss. Shoot for something lower and you’ll land on your face if you fail.

 

[JimO]

I find it interesting that you have this in your signature;

“Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” - Peter

And yet you appear to be arguing exactly the opposite.

You have read much into a single phrase of mine where I simply suggested that someone could find Jesus without being a member of the Catholic Church. And, you basically ignored the point of my post, which is in the second paragraph that deals with the manifestation of the fruits of the Spirit. At the risk of going off on a tangent, I must at least make a partial response.

I’m afraid you are not entirely accurate in your statements and I don’t want anyone to misunderstand what the Church teaches. The Catholic Church teaches that a person can both encounter Jesus Christ and receive the Holy Spirit without becoming Catholic, through proper Trinitarian baptism (CCC 1271). Baptism makes them a member of the Body of Christ and gives them the title of Christian. If not, then the Church could not recognize the baptism of other churches and would have to re-baptize all converts, which it does not. A person might not receive the Body and Blood of Christ sacramentally through the Eucharist outside the Church (with the exception of those churches whose sacraments are recognized as valid), but that is different and not the only way to receive Christ. It is the fullness of our relationship with Him, but not the only way to have a relationship with Him. There is incomprehensible grace and immeasurable grace in receiving Jesus in the Eucharist, but He is not entirely absent from those who cannot receive Him in this manner. In the same way the teachings of the Catholic Church are the fullness of the Truth while other Christian churches can still teach Truth. Thus, I restate my point that I would hope that all would find Jesus through the Catholic Church, but would rather them find Him somewhere else than not at all. I would add that I hope and pray that this encounter would lead them to the fullness of the faith in the Catholic Church.

Regarding my other point, you know as well as I do that there are many who have been baptized and even confirmed in the Church, who reject the teachings of the Church, live in a state of mortal sin, do not have a relationship with Jesus, and who risk hell. I would argue that they are in a worse state than those Christians who do not have a full understanding of what the Church teaches and are ignorant of the Truth, but who have a relationship with Jesus.

 

[Mickey]

The reason: more competition is good for Christianity, just as it is good for the marketplace.

Oh my!

 

[Mickey]

We are the Catholic Church. In the Catholic Church there is also a Roman Rite of which is only ONE of the rites that are in communion with the Pope.

As a Byzantine Catholic I say, “Amen”!

 

[Peterdiago]

It is the fullness of our relationship with Him, but not the only way to have a relationship with Him. There is incomprehensible grace and immeasurable grace in receiving Jesus in the Eucharist, but He is not entirely absent from those who cannot receive Him in this manner.

And I never suggested He was - I said that to imply that Protestantism is ever “good enough” is flawed logic.

I would add that I hope and pray that this encounter would lead them to the fullness of the faith in the Catholic Church.

I agree wholeheartedly with you here - but the area where we disagree is that you seem to be prepared to give Protestantism a “pass” and suggest it is okay. It is clear that you do not, but are doing so in a laudable attempt at charity and so forth.

This is, I feel, a difference of style and nothing more. You are willing to sugar-coat the truth a little in order to make it more paletable - I am not. There is merit to both our approaches, I am sure - but mine is the one which has to be used at the end of time. I am impatient, that is all . . .

Regarding my other point, you know as well as I do that there are many who have been baptized and even confirmed in the Church, who reject the teachings of the Church, live in a state of mortal sin, do not have a relationship with Jesus, and who risk hell. I would argue that they are in a worse state than those Christians who do not have a full understanding of what the Church teaches and are ignorant of the Truth, but who have a relationship with Jesus.

You speak of Catholic heretics rather than members of churches which teach heresy. I would say that the Catholic is always in a better situation until he dies - because all he has to do to come back into the fold of infinite love is say “Bless me, Father, for I have sinned . . .” while the Protestant can NEVER get to that place. He can recieve graces, certainly, but he can never reach as high as the fallen Catholic can with a simple act.

Grace is offered to the Catholic in the simplest, most direct manner possible - to Protestants, it is offered obliquely and together with a lot of other material which is sometimes damaging to the Faith.

That is the difference between us - you say it is better to be honestyly seeking Christ and looking in the wrong place, while I say it is better to be in the right place and not looking.

 

[djrakowski]

Oh my!

Yeah, market-driven Christianity, instead of truth-driven Christianity - that’s the *real *way to go