Charismatic Evangelical Church transforming christianity

[Mickey]

I agree wholeheartedly with you here - but the area where we disagree is that you seem to be prepared to give Protestantism a “pass” and suggest it is okay. It is clear that you do not, but are doing so in a laudable attempt at charity and so forth.

This is, I feel, a difference of style and nothing more. You are willing to sugar-coat the truth a little in order to make it more paletable - I am not. There is merit to both our approaches, I am sure - but mine is the one which has to be used at the end of time. I am impatient, that is all . . .

Yes. You are impatient. Impatience is a passion that we should strive to overcome.

I appreciate your zeal for the Catholic Church, but you will never force protestants to convert by telling them they are heretics. It is better to be charitable to our brothers and sisters in Christ and to love them and pray for them—that the Holy Spirit will guide them to the truth. With all due respect, I think your approach is counter-productive.

 

[Peterdiago]

but you will never force protestants to convert by telling them they are heretics.

I never called a single Protestant a heretic - very few of them are. Only a Baptised Catholic can be a heretic. They are, however, followers and members of a church which teaches heresy.

It is better to be charitable to our brothers and sisters in Christ and to love them and pray for them—that the Holy Spirit will guide them to the truth.

I am being charitable - I am telling them of the dangers of the path they are embarked on. If there was someone who denied the divinity of Jesus and said that all religions were bunkum, would you take such a “charitable” line?

I challenge that suggesting Protestantism is anything less than a heresy and a direct afront to the Catholic Church and Jesus Christ is charity; it is not. Charity springs from love and compassion and care - and I care enough about these people to tell them the truth.

Protestants do what they do because of ignorance, or a feel-good emotional rush. Or because they have been indoctrinated with hatred of the Catholic Church. Those are the only reasons - if someone was doing something which lead them into danger because of these reasons, charity would tell you to tell them of it.

With all due respect, I think your approach is counter-productive.

And I think that doing anything else is not only counter-productive, but is also not what Christ wants. Notice that Christ Himself and all the Apostles go around and offer a very black and white, hard-line teaching on what the Truth is. And most of them get killed for it!

You say that we should pray that the Holy Spirit shows them the truth; I say that Christ told us to teach all nations, not just to pray for all nations. Evangelisation is the Great Commission - and when there are heresies they have to be crushed. As a significant number of Bishops who are now Saints did.

Am I likely to be remembered as a Saint of the Church who crushed Protestantism? No. Am I likely to meet people in Heaven who I have converted to the truth of Catholicism by simply stating the bare facts? Yes.

Look at the arguments thrown from the other side - the idea that Catholicism is not Christianity and so forth. Look at what the Islamics say - that Christianity is a lie. That is zeal, that is determination. That is why they are winning converts - because they do not bimble around and say "Well, you get a pass . . . "

Nope, they say that those who they think are wrong are wrong - and people convert in the face of conviction and no truth whatsoever!

We have truth and practically no zeal - is it any wonder that the Evangelical cancer grows day by day?

 

[JimO]

This is, I feel, a difference of style and nothing more. You are willing to sugar-coat the truth a little in order to make it more paletable - I am not. There is merit to both our approaches, I am sure - but mine is the one which has to be used at the end of time. I am impatient, that is all . . .

I wouldn’t call it sugar coating, because that would be adding falsehood to the Truth to make the Truth “go down better”. I simply choose not to verbally “get in someone’s face” because I want them to be attracted to the faith. I assume that by “end of time” you mean the generalized term taught by the Church that refers to the entire time since Christ died and rose from the dead.

You speak of Catholic heretics rather than members of churches which teach heresy. I would say that the Catholic is always in a better situation until he dies - because all he has to do to come back into the fold of infinite love is say “Bless me, Father, for I have sinned . . .” while the Protestant can NEVER get to that place. He can recieve graces, certainly, but he can never reach as high as the fallen Catholic can with a simple act…

…That is the difference between us - you say it is better to be honestyly seeking Christ and looking in the wrong place, while I say it is better to be in the right place and not looking.

No, I am referring to those that JesusforMadrid labelled as “calling themselves Catholic”. I should know who I am referring to and I maintain that someone who is genuinely seeking Christ, albeit ignorant of the fullness of the Truth in the Catholic Church, is much better off than the Catholic who willingly lives in mortal sin. You don’t have to be a heretic to live in mortal sin and an awareness of the fullness of the faith can make someone more culpable. That is the basis for the concept of invincible ignorance.

I agree with you that the best place for any person is full communion with the Catholic Church AND remaining in a state of grace within the Church.

 

[Peterdiago]

I simply choose not to verbally “get in someone’s face” because I want them to be attracted to the faith.

Pity Christ didn’t do that - or Saint Paul. Or Saint James. Or . . . .

That’s the issue here - people speak of charity, and yet they don’t seem to grasp that what they are showing isn’t what Jesus showed. Jesus called people fools when they were. St. James called them ignorant. St. Paul was pretty “in your face”.

So am I - and you know what? In my experience it works far better than any other method. When I read your posts, if I were Protestant and wanted to carry on beliving that Protestantism was okay, I would have thought that you thought it was okay. With mine, I would not.

Now, of course, I’ve pushed you 'til you’ve admitted that you don’t think that. We don’t agree on all things - but I’ve got you to be just as in your face as I have.

So, I’m content

 

[Damascus]

I agree that tough love is the way to go in most cases.

But a word of caution I should have mentioned earlier- What will happen on these forums from my own personal experience here would be this:

toss the words Blasphemy, Heresy, Anathama or the like out enough times and suddenly you will find yourself in a place where you will have more Catholics upset than Protestants. Yes. I was there. I had to tone down the zoom level a ton of notches so that I would not have to reply back to the multitude of Catholic posters crying out - unfair! Not charitable! No one will convert to the faith if you keep this up! Are you advocating another inqusition? Or a Crusade? What is the matter with you? Dont you know that the CCC states blah blah,??

So I just got to the point where I felt frustrated and decided hey, its not worth it. Then it hit me, wow, that is kinda what the Church has done. Make our Churches Look Protestant. Take away the smells and bells. Not so much talk of Hell anymore. I have never heard the words Blasphemy Heresy or Anathama in Church since I have been a Catholic. But more and more of the same old attempts at watering things down with the hopes the people will come. Couple this with all the movements going on and its terrifying.

Oh well. At least Jesus promised us the gates of Hell would not prevail. But why do we have to make it so much easier for Satan’s smoke to enter it?

I really wish we could use your method of tough love “P” but, I am worn out.

I hope you stick it out in your way, but please remember you may end up getting banned - someone will report you as being “uncharitable” or some other nonsenical thing. The squeaky wheel will get the grease and you may get the shaft.

Good Luck “P”. You are refreshing.

 

[Peterdiago]

Oh, I like you, Damascus. I really do - right now, you remind me on the days when I get tired! And, doubtless, in about a week or so the pendulum will swing and I’ll be the one worn out and tired and you’ll all full of fire and zeal!

I really wish we could use your method of tough love “P” but, I am worn out.

Read my signature - it’s from a story I wrote. And it’s the thing that sustains me from day to day doing this.

I hope you stick it out in your way, but please remember you may end up getting banned - someone will report you as being “uncharitable” or some other nonsenical thing. The squeaky wheel will get the grease and you may get the shaft.

LOL! Well, yes - I can see that happening. It’s happened before on a non-Catholic but Christian forum.

But, I have a girl who sits behind me while I work - and she is obsessed with Catholic martyrs. She tells me constantly about Jesuits who had their fingernails torn out and the stumps of their fingers chewed by Indians.

Kind of puts a ban into perspective, doesn’t it?

Good Luck “P”. You are refreshing.

I try to be

 

[Damascus]

P-

Maybe you can help me on the Apologetics thread re: Purgatory. I did okay so far, but help is good.

OP- dont get me wrong, I have every desire to see people be better Christians. I just think they have to crawl before they can run.

 

[Peterdiago]

Can’t refuse a brother’s request for help . . . .

 

[Sabda]

No no, re read my earlier posts. I am saying that competition is good for the Catholic Church, in your opinion the only “True” church. I am saying that the Catholic Church is much stronger in areas where it faces competition–the US, South Africa, South America–than where if doesn’t-e.g. Spain.

If competition is good for the Catholic Church, and the Roman Church is good, than indeed competition is indeed good.

It’s my understanding that much of South America is mainly Catholic. If that’s true, than what your telling me is that I should be happy that Evangelicals are taking Catholics out of the Church. NO, I’m not happy about that!

BTW, you are clearly not aware of the diversity with in Catholicism. There are many different rites with in the Catholic Church. Each has there own unique traditions and liturgy. We are the one house on the hill with many rooms.
Here is some reading material for you.

 

[Mickey]

They are, however, followers and members of a church which teaches heresy.

My apologies–you are saying that they are members of heretical churches.

I am being charitable - I am telling them of the dangers of the path they are embarked on. If there was someone who denied the divinity of Jesus and said that all religions were bunkum, would you take such a “charitable” line??

I don’t think that most protestants are denying the divinity of Jesus Christ. But I agree that there are sects which still lean toward Arianism or Nestorianism.

Charity springs from love and compassion and care

Agreed.

and I care enough about these people to tell them the truth.

Perhaps it is your delivery. Your agressive methods may indeed convince some people of the truth of Catholicism. But many more have come to see the light through charity, love, compassion and gentleness. Some people take five, ten, fifteen years before they enter the Church. Others take a lifetime and convert on their deathbed. I have been talking with a baptist friend for about three years. He is convinced that the Catholic Church is the fullness of truth. But it has been a long journey. Our discussions began somewhat argumentatively. I was agressive. It turned him off. When I took the path of love, charity and compassion—there was a paradox shift.

You say that we should pray that the Holy Spirit shows them the truth; I say that Christ told us to teach all nations, not just to pray for all nations. Evangelisation is the Great Commission - and when there are heresies they have to be crushed. As a significant number of Bishops who are now Saints did…

I am not saying that we should not evangelize. I am saying that you can evangelize until the cows come home–but only the Holy Spirit will change hearts.

Am I likely to meet people in Heaven who I have converted to the truth of Catholicism by simply stating the bare facts? Yes.

You will convert no one–only the Holy Spirit does that.

Look at the arguments thrown from the other side - the idea that Catholicism is not Christianity and so forth.

Prejudice is a tough nut to crack.

Look at what the Islamics say - that Christianity is a lie. That is zeal, that is determination. That is why they are winning converts - because they do not bimble around and say "Well, you get a pass . . . ".

Many times they hold a sword to your neck and say, “convert or your head comes off.”

 

[Fidelis]

The OP’s original statement somewhat reminds me of Nikita Kruschev’s ironic prediction of Communisms inevitable triumph over democracy:

"We will bury you!"

Where are Kruschev and Communism now?

 

[JimO]

Pity Christ didn’t do that - or Saint Paul. Or Saint James. Or . . . .

Yes, Jesus did, in some cases, in others He did not. He addressed each person individually. He had tough words for hypocrites and compassionate words for the ignorant and sinners. By the way, Jesus could see into the heart of a person, you and I cannot.

In the case of the epistles, they were typically addressing particular abuses and addressing doctrinal issues. Tough words were used where necessary, true. The Church also uses tough language where necessary.

Often, in the case of Protestants who know little or nothing about the Catholic faith, you are dealing with someone who is truly ignorant and they might just be open to the Truth if they aren’t immediately put on the defensive. I have known many Protestants who have grown up in a vacuum regarding the Catholic Church. Many have converted, but it took time and proper formation, not simply saying, “Your church is wrong and the Catholic Church is the only true Church.”

I will grant you that getting into someone’s face is sometimes the only way to get through and is an appropriate way to evangelize them, particularly if you know the person well and they understand that you are truly using the tough LOVE approach (as opposed to simply the tough approach for its own sake) and if they know you care about them as a person. However, when one takes the same approach with others, particularly strangers, one can come across as arrogant, unloving, and more concerned about being right than concerned about the person’s eternal soul. One can also come across as insecure in their faith and undermine their efforts to evangelize.

You and I have different approaches, which can both be effective given the circumstances. I have no problem with that after learning more about your passion for the faith. What I do have a problem with is you implying, or stating outright, that my approach is dangerous, heretical, or somehow compromising the faith.

 

[JimO]

When I read your posts, if I were Protestant and wanted to carry on beliving that Protestantism was okay, I would have thought that you thought it was okay. With mine, I would not.

Now, of course, I’ve pushed you 'til you’ve admitted that you don’t think that. We don’t agree on all things - but I’ve got you to be just as in your face as I have.

So, I’m content

You obviously haven’t read many of my posts. You just keyed in on a single phrase on this one thread and went off on a presumptuous tangent about me as a person. Perhaps if you had been a little more patient and allowed me to dialogue with the OP, you would have been more satisfied. I believe in framing a discussion before getting right to the meat of it and my original point to the OP was that his statement regarding seeing the fruits of the Spirit more in Evangelicals than in Catholics was based on his own limited observations and not very accurate. I intended to move on from there until we danced off on this tangent arguing about whose approach is better. I doubt now that I can make my points with the OP because it’ll take him an hour to read the entire thread. Oh well…

Also, I can get as in your face as the next guy, but I’ve learned when it’s appropriate and when it’s not. If you want some face time fine, but we should probably do it in private messages so we don’t get banned . I understand and appreciate your zeal. I know many converts who are like the smoker who has quit and is much more outspoken to other smokers. That’s a good thing.

I’m glad you feel content, but if you did a little research into my 2,000+ posts over the years before framing your opinion of me, you would have seen that I have “admitted” many times to many people that the Catholic Church is the fullness of the Truth. But, if you need to feel like you forced it out of me, then I won’t argue the point.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Yeah, market-driven Christianity, instead of truth-driven Christianity - that’s the *real *way to go

Amen!
Give me Truth based Christianity over market-based Christianity any day.

 

[valient_Lucy]

I’ve read three things said on this thread, not in the OP, that I disagree with.

1 False advertising on the part of Evangelical missionaries in Latin America. Someone mentioned that in Latin America, Evangelical missionaries are using Our Lady of Guadalupe to attract and appeal to potential converts. This is false advertising at its worst, since the Evangelical Church will, at best, ignore The Blessed Mother, or at its worst, teach that apparitions such as Our Lady of Guadalupe are possibly demonic.

2 Sending missionaries to Sicily to engage in “sheep stealing.” If Evangelical missionaries are going to European countries, why not concentrate on the Muslim immigrants who are streaming into Europe?

3 The idea of a “market driven” Christianity. The problem with that is, it emphasises personal preference and choice at the expense of truth. We have this very preverantly in the United States, but I don’t think that this has resulted in a persuit of truth. Rather, it has resulted in a persuit of “whatever makes me feel good at the time.” I have friends who jettison Christianity in exhange for a Western kind of Buddhism, and other friends who blend Christianity with Wicca/witchcraft. This is the result of market-driven theology.

I also find it interesting that JesusforMadrid encourages competition and a diversity of worship style and ideas, and yet thinks that Catholics should jettison the perpetual virginity of Mary, since it impedes unity between Churches, as well as Catholic Marian devotion. So, diversity within the marketplace is good, except Catholic diversity?

 

[JohnnyReb]

What is Catholicism doing to evangelize areas that have few Christians. IMO, Evangelicalism is growing because they/we are sending out missionaries to these places. Since I know little about Catholic ministry, what is the CC doing to evangelize? Is there a shortage of missionary work for instance?

 

[MariaG]

What is Catholicism doing to evangelize areas that have few Christians. IMO, Evangelicalism is growing because they/we are sending out missionaries to these places. Since I know little about Catholic ministry, what is the CC doing to evangelize? Is there a shortage of missionary work for instance?

So the predominantly Catholic Christian Latin America has few Christians?

Mother Teresa, yeah, she was working in such a Christian country. I mean India has tons of Christians.

She was one of the most visible ones. The problem is that the Catholic Church does not “advertise” her work of evangelization because the work is for God and not for ignorant people who make ignorant claims.

 

[JimmyJeff]

The Economist magazine had an interesting article on the rise of Pentacostal/charismatic Christianity.

If you haven’t read it, here is the source:
economist.com/world/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=8401206

Forget theology for a minute: one thing that is heartening for Evangelicals, and must be depressing for Roman Catholics, is how the Evangelical Church is growing in Latin America, Africa and China, mostly the charismatic brand of Evangelical Christianity. China is now the second largest nation of practicing Christians (estimated 100 million), the large majority of whom are Evangelicals.

Oh Goody! A contest for Jesus!

I’m not a Catholic but this post is irritating. This is how I read it, “Hahaha more people are becoming Evangelical so that must make it better and me right!” Actually no it doesn’t. It is much easier to be an evangelical or to join an Protestant church than it is to become Catholic.

 

[JohnnyReb]

So the predominantly Catholic Christian Latin America has few Christians?

Mother Teresa, yeah, she was working in such a Christian country. I mean India has tons of Christians.

She was one of the most visible ones. The problem is that the Catholic Church does not “advertise” her work of evangelization because the work is for God and not for ignorant people who make ignorant claims.

Please don’t think that I am saying the CC does not evangelize. I guess I would like to know what CC missionary work looks like, what these efforts look like. I am not Catholic…I have been in the Pentecostal movement for several years. Pentecostalism has grow because the movement sees itself as just that…a missionary movement. Missions is a central focus and it emphasized to all people within the movement.

 

[djrakowski]

2 Sending missionaries to Sicily to engage in “sheep stealing.” If Evangelical missionaries are going to European countries, why not concentrate on the Muslim immigrants who are streaming into Europe?

It was my former church that sent missionaries to Sicily, and even though they do engage in missions work in a variety of non-Christian countries, particularly in Africa, the Indian subcontinent and southeast Asia, they send far, far more to Catholic countries like Italy and those of Latin America. Clearly, they don’t consider such countries to be legitimately Christian.

3 The idea of a “market driven” Christianity. The problem with that is, it emphasises personal preference and choice at the expense of truth. We have this very preverantly in the United States, but I don’t think that this has resulted in a persuit of truth. Rather, it has resulted in a persuit of “whatever makes me feel good at the time.” I have friends who jettison Christianity in exhange for a Western kind of Buddhism, and other friends who blend Christianity with Wicca/witchcraft. This is the result of market-driven theology.

We’re already seeing this in the evangelical movement in the United States. If you’d like to see how this is manifesting itself in one very prominent church led by a very prominent pastor, visit the webpage of Saddleback Community Church, particularly this page about worship venues.