charismatic gifts

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po18guy said:
Amen! I have been telling others of my experience after receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit. What this did was to release the gifts that I received at confirmation. My faith life went from run of the mill to one that is on fire! I am compelled by the Holy Spirit to spread the Gospel. I can’t stop!
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I know 1st hand whereof you speak. Like a fire shut up in our bones. It was about 35 years ago I was Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

I know my Catholic friends think there’s something different about me. Maybe I’m just eccentric 😃

It is not a cure all. I fell away from all faith for a very long time. I most admire and cherish those whose love and holiness exceed my own. My tutors in Christ.

I’m surprised God didn’t just throw me over. But he did not.

I’m so happy he made me a Christian and Catholic. Surprises the dickens out of me. And if you would have told the kid that I was long ago that he would one day be Catholic, he would not have belived.

Blessed Be God Forever!
 
As a Charismatic I have become more forgiving more calm, more open&more loving- that is the greatest gift the Holy Spirit could ever give me.I’ve never spoken in tongues and you know what it doesn’t matter in least in the circle of people I hang out with. It fact we are more orthodox in many ways then so called"traditionalists". If you have the Gift of love all things become possible and God has used me wonderously far more than I deserve… “Preach the Gospel and If necessary Use Words” St.Francis of Asssisi
 
It was participation in Charismatic event, like Franciscan University’s annual summer retreats in the 70’s that brought me closer to Christ. I would say I had a real conversion experience. I don’t mean to bash Charismatics at all. I’m still very charismatic in so many ways, who isn’t? Afterall if you are baptized then the Holy Spirit works through you know doubt.

Many of the people I knew fell away as did I eventually. But I fell into the Church of Christ a very stern group in comparison. It was no picnic. My wife’s conversion is a true miracle if you know their beliefs. But fully practicing 2 separate beleifs is actually a sinful thing to do because it is equivalent to saying you are in communion with them. Far to many people are placing “feeling” above the teachings of the Church and sadly that has reulted in a lot of problems that I won’t go into. If you fall into this category, look out, things are swinging back and your head might get knocked off on the way back to orthodoxy. As if I really know. I just thought of something funny to say.

You guys have written a lot for me to digest and I appreciate it. I will dig deeper as the Spirit leads me.
 
I have learned a lot these past two days Re: charismatic gifts & the Charismatic Movement. Although some people experience a kind of spiritual change for the better in their lives (on fire for the Lord), there is the danger of falling away from the Catholic Church teachings and the sacramental life. If we desire spiritual consolations all the time, how can we accept the crosses that come along in life? How can we accept just living the day-to-day ordinary life? The faith experience is believing without seeing, without signs, just knowing that God is present, even when things seem dark.
 
This is an excellent thread, which I wanted to respond to and compliment the discussion participants, so I can find it easier again! 🙂

~~ the phoenix
 
What’s the difference between knowing and feeling? We here TV preachers saying “Feel the the power of the Holy Spirit.” Does deeping your faith mean deeping your feelings or deeping your knowing, your understanding of your faith?

Is Evil real? Are people the possesors of inalienable human rights? Where does evil come from? And where does humans rights come from (not to be confused with civil rights since there are no universal government laws)?

Do you feel that humans have inalienable rights or is it a “self-evident truth”?

If there is such a factual thing (as opposed to an imaginary thing) as human rights then we know of them by reason of faith. You can’t prove endowed inalienable rights exist as simply being human. Because there is nothing in nature that endows us with a right to life.

Atheists like to use the Problem of Evil paradox in debates with Christians to argue against the existence of God and hince to imply that Naturalism is the correct metaphysical understanding for reality. But there’s a fundamental flaw in their possition. They assume that Evil actually does exist to make this paradoxical argument. The problem for them is, if evil does exist then their Naturalism must be false. For Naturalism, nature is both a-theistic and a-moral. So in nature there’d be no true evil and no true good - one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

If a male lion genocides another’s cubs of whose pride he’s taken over is that evil? No. But it is if humans genocides another’s children. If there actually is a difference, what makes us different from the lions and how do we know we are different? Moral Truth. God is Truth. We know this Truth by reason of faith. It’s not about feelings. Feelings and emotion are something else.

Secular humanism is an oxymoron because the secular part holds to a belief in Naturalism and its phylosophical rejections of moral realism (moral truths). But humanism rejects this secularistic possition and holds to a belief in a universal moral realism (moral truths) of human rights endowed unto all.

You will find it very hard to get an atheists to reject the existence of human rights and evil, and naturalism. The vast majority of athiest simply doesn’t understand that universal moralities have no reality within phyosophical Naturalism.

I hope I deeping your understand that universal morality is a faith based knowing. That’s my sharing of my faith for the day.😉
 
This information from Catholic Pentecostals by Kevin and Dorothy Ranahan should help.
Both Catholic pentecostals (or Charismatics) and denominational Pentecostals have the “same experience of the Holy Spirit. For Catholics the experience is an important element in the whole life of worship, sacramental celebration, rich dogmatic tradition and apostolic work. Pentecostal denominations were formed by Christians who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit within certain other fundamental denominations and who were forced out of their home churches because others did not accept their experiences as valid. Thus for many pentecostal denominations the baptism of the Spirit and the experience of the gifts has been such a central focus as to tend to exclude other rich facets of Christian community life.”
The preaching of 19th and 20th century Revivals was often emotional and geared toward a rural population with little education. The stereotype of pentecostalism is that of the “Holy Roller.” Catholic pentecostalism is less about the individualistic Christian ethic of those Revivals (Are you saved?) and more about the life of the community being renewed and purified by the power of the Holy Spirit.
The experience of those in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal has been accepted and embraced by the Vatican.
 
We should not seek gifts, but the Giver of gifts.

God will bless those who love Him, in the way that He chooses.

Whatever is in His will for us will make us satisfied, contenct. If He wants you to be a prophet or healer then receive it from Him, because that is His will for you, but covetting these or any specific gifts is a mistake. If He does not will this for you, be content. Whatever His will is for you is perfect for you.

The one gift that we know that is universally in His will, for all of us, is love. God is love. Love is above all of the other particular gifts or graces, greater than all. If you have love you will be content. If you are content you know you don’t need anything else. If you do not have it you will never be content, and instead seek things that He gives to others, which might not be good for you.
 
Some Charismatics may rely on feelings more then faith.Happily that has not been my experience.Just as there many in Our church who believe if the say the right prayers and obey “the rules” that is enough. Your’ heart has to be there - not just your mind and not just feelings.Aquinas with all his accomplishments his fantastic mind and theological insights felt it was nothing next to his personal experience with God. That some Catholics might have fallen to Protestants during the hey day of the Charismatic movement is sad- I don’t think they realized the precious gift the gave up for a mere emotional feeling. But I’ve known a lot of Catholics that left because the felt no personal relationship with Christ.That is not because we have no “born again” relationships in Catholicsm -we call it a "conversion " experience. Catholic Mysticism, Theology and lives of saints are replete with such experiences. But what we have that keeps us in line with the Church is our love of the Church and her Traditions and our relying on those to guide us- not relying on"private " revelation.That is a pit fall that is to easy to fall into. What I think I’m trying to say is that the Charismatic Movement is not the enemy-- we are fellow travelers in a journey that as a Church we take together. Just as Byzantine or Melkite Catholics have a different way of worshiping does not mean they are disloyal or freaky or strange- we both rely on the the Church ,the Magisterium and ,hierarchy and each other.We are Not of the ilk of Lefebevre or the ultra traditionalist who actually left the church to have their own way. We are obedient and see the church as Father, Mother the breath we breathe, our be all and end all-headed by Christ and guided by Christ’s vicar on earth the pope. We are just as orthodox as the pope!
 
Why do you equal emotion with experience? I have the experience of my years. And that experience has lead me to realize that emotions are fleeting.

“But I’ve known a lot of Catholics that left because the felt no personal relationship with Christ.” Is it possible that thier weekness was a fault from their own emotional desires? “To know Christ is to love him.” I don’t see a problem with anyone rejoicing in their knowing but I must admit to being bottherd by charismatics wanting to jazz up every mass because that’s how they wish to worship. For me, a meditiative person, it’s distracting to my focusing on the Mystery. I don’t see how worshipping God, no matter how you do it, if the focus is outwardly to him is borring.
 
juliamajor said:
Some Charismatics may rely on feelings more then faith.

The Charismatics I have met do indeed rely on feelings. RELY is the operative word. What are feelings? Emotions! How do you know God loves you? Is it by what you feel? If you feel His love does that prove that He loves you? If someone does not feel His love does that prove God does not love him? You know God loves you not by what you feel, but by what He did. What then do you know, spiritually, by what you feel? Nothing! Feelings are good. God made us with emotion. But they are not the means by which we know truth. Charismatics seek emotional experiences. Why? They see them as signs that prove something.
Your’ heart has to be there - not just your mind and not just feelings.Aquinas with all his accomplishments his fantastic mind and theological insights felt it was nothing next to his personal experience with God.
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Here’s the problem I’m having with the charismatic movement along with many of the new retreats that put so much focus on experiencing emotional highs. It isn’t necessary to actually learn about my religion to get the high.

Visually, when it comes to the wathcing the emotional expressions, I can’t tell the difference between much of the charismatic expressions and an Amway covention. youtube.com/watch?v=lMgUe4HUMSU

I’ve been to Catholic retreats where the organizers seem to have borrowed their methods from social psycology and labled it religious. In Texas ACTS retreats are growing as a social movement with alot of push and excitment from its organizers. If you didn’t know any better you’d think they were selling Amway.

If you ask anyone what goes on at an ACTS retreat they won’t tell you cuz it’s a big secrete. They’ll tell you if you know the secrete it’ll spoil the process. Huh? “The process?” What process? My faith isn’t a secrete and I’m not suppose to hold it as such. So the secrete must be held to not spoil the social psy.
 
Doug50 said:
Why do you equal emotion with experience?

I believe I equated feelings with emotions.
I have the experience of my years. And that experience has lead me to realize that emotions are fleeting.
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The outer is important. It is the form. It is supposed to lift us inwardly and communally to worship and conversion, which is inner. Both dimensions are essential. Making a racket is bad form.
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Doug50,

I humbly suggest that you might be over analyzing all of this. The Twelve were all charismatic, that’s how they accomplished the miracles in scripture. It’s not that using our charisms is a new development-rather it is a return to the early church. The faith experience becomes sterilized if the charisms, gifts from God Himself, are not used. It deadens faith to relegate such blessings to the fringe.

If we went about healing and performing miracles in today’s society, don’t you think that whole nations would flock to the church? Just find an orthodox, charismatic priest and make a few inquiries. I can only bear withness to the amazing things the Spirit has accomplished when I say my pathetic “yes” to Him.

Christ’s peace.
 
weakness is part of humanity if emotion is a weakness.Emotional desires are they wrong? If so why did God give us a range of them.We need Faith and Fire-the apostles all knew Christ but it was only with the descent of the Holy Spirit that things moved rapidly and the Church was born.Meditation sure I do that a lot.Prayer-yes.As for Charismatics wanting to jazz up every mass.Most untrue at least around my area.My fellow Charismatics and me were considered oddballs and freaks and limited to what we could do.Our Masses did not interfere with regularly scheduled services- we had them at weird hours and days but our pastor said it wasn’t his thing so in obedience we ended them.Believe me it has left me a little empty.Maybe it makes shallow but I am mind body and spirit worshipping with all three makes me feel deeply in touch with God .Since becoming a Charismatic I’ve grown so much in lovewith Christ that I’ve become confident enough to study and teach scripture- and serve Him in multiple ministries .Do i feel “regular Mass is boring- not at all.I will say something that is a truism of Catholic scripture study as opposed to Protestant study - with Protestants it is either or with Catholics it can be both-example m=Mary is a human woman and the mother of God one does not contradict they other.What i’m trying to say is we don’t and shouldn’t be at each others throats and we should both be at work in the vineyards of the Lord without thinking"mine is better than yours”.
 
juliamajor said:
What i’m trying to say is we don’t and shouldn’t be at each others throats and we should both be at work in the vineyards of the Lord without thinking"mine is better than yours".
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Absolutely! BUT, only one of us is correct. Seekers of all faiths who are not satisfied and want a deeper relationship with the Lord; those who want more and know that there IS more, tend to move toward Catholicism. Catholics who are poorly catechized and somewhat weak in their faith move away toward the “emotional” and entertainment-oriented churches. I call everyone to the fullness of faith; Baptists, Mormons, Protestants of all stripes and Pentecostals-who have the Spirit but lack the Body. Personal fullness of faith for me was realized only after the gifts of the Holy Spirit were released by a charismatic priest. Remember, it is not “our” church, it’s God’s. And, as I was called to it, so I call others.

Nevertherless, better to have part of Christ than all of Satan.
 
I do know that my mother received many graces when she became a member of the Charismatic Movement back in the 70s. She began doing more spiritual reading, her gift of helping others (namely – the elderly and the sick) came about, and she became a member of the Legion of Mary and became quite devoted to our Blessed Mother with a greater love for Jesus. My mother brought Communion to the shut-ins and to those people at the rest homes. She truly loved the people she served for Christ’s sake.

In 1997 she was diagnosed with terminal colon cancer which metastasized to her liver and other vital organs. Throughout her three-year battle with cancer, she bore this cross courageously. She didn’t complain, and she continued to have a sense of humor even.

I believe my mother entered into a deeper interior spiritual life as a result of her experience with the Charismatic Movement. She never focused on just the gifts. She just began to really love more like Christ Jesus and Mary His Mother.
 
Amen!The Gifts are not important next to the relationship you foster with the Lord.People who dwell on the gifts can cause rivalry in the church-as we know from paul’s letters.Thanx for your testimony
 
Do you desire to have these gifts? Go back and read my original posts where I quote the archbisop and John of the Cross.

When the apostles recieve the gift of speaking in tonges is was so that everyone listenting could understand (in their own language) what was being preached to them. I hear no comparison coming from charismatics who believe their’s is the same gift.
 
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