charismatic gifts

[guanophore]

If spirtual enlightenment were as easy as the charismatic movement would entail then why wasn’t this open to St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa (both Doctors of the Church), or Mother Teresa?

The Spirit manifests the gifts as He wills. Some are gifted with the dark night of the soul, others with different gifts. Both are valid, both are necessary.

If all that is needed is laying of hands and being baptized in the Holy Spirit what then becomes the point of spirtual fortitude? (BTW: the full manifistaion of Holy Spirit is present in your soul from Baptism. It’s up to you to accept Him. Is baptisim in the Holy Spirit after Baptism a new 8th sacrement? Just wonderig)

I don’t think anyone said that laying on of hands and the experience of charismatic gifts is all that is necessary. For some people, it helps them to develop spiritual fortitude.

I disagree that the full manifestation of the HS is present from Baptism. While the HS is given at that time and seals the believer, and one is again sealed in Confirmation, for many Catholics, the HS is NEVER manifested. On another thread, I have been involved in a discussion about the number of “nominal” (in name only) Catholics. I have taught confirmation classes with high school students that are much more plugged into their mp3 players than they are the Spirit. Some come from Catholic families that were never taught to manifest the HS.

The HS being poured out or entering/sealing a believer is not the same as experiencing manifestation of that Spirit in daily life, or in the gifts of the Spirit. The “Baptism of the Spirit” is a phrase used to denote that those gifts, received at Baptism and confirmation, are released and made active. I liken it to a room that is wired for lights. The wiring is present, the electricty is is live, the switch works, but the lights have never been turned on.

How else could the student strength his soul if not through such spirtual trials and tribulations? I would think it is through full use of these 7 gifts (like fortitued) along with virtues that bring about the heroic figure of a Mother Teresa.

The gifts mentioned in Corinthians also have the ability to strengthen the soul.

Giving into fortitude is painful where giving into the emotionalism of group psychology is enjoyable and easier.

I think this might be a misunderstanding. Suffering is still painful, whether the person suffering prays in tongues or not.

desiring the Gifts (created things), loving these gifts, crowds our desires/love for the Holy Spirit.

I think this is also a misunderstanding. When we speak of the gifts of the HS in Corinthians we are not speaking of any “created things”. These gifts are manifestations of the HS, and have their source in His Divine Nature, and not any created nature. Scripture teaches us to earnestly desire the best gifts, so there must be a way to do this that is consistent with the rest of what scripture teaches about suffering.

 

[grandfather]

We have choices to make in life. We can choose to focus on our trials and tribulations, the crosses that are borne during this lifetime, or we can focus on the resurrection. We are called to walk in the light of Christ, as children of the resurection. .

We certainly have choices to make in this life. The either or choice posited is not one of them. This is like saying we can choose between eating an ice cream cone or breathing. The reality is you can have an ice cream cone as long as you breath. Jesus got to the Resurrection through the Cross. It is not either or. You can’t have one without the other no matter what you choose to focus on.

Someone said those who don’t like charismatics resent all the fun they have. I do like charismatics, but honestly have difficulty with the fact that they seem to disengage their intellects and ride on feelings and emotions and say illogical things like we have to choose between focusing on suffering or resurrection, and not even see the problem with it. They make things up like this and believe it. Show me a saint that ever said something like this.

 

[DebChris]

We certainly have choices to make in this life. The either or choice posited is not one of them. This is like saying we can choose between eating an ice cream cone or breathing. The reality is you can have an ice cream cone as long as you breath. Jesus got to the Resurrection through the Cross. It is not either or. You can’t have one without the other no matter what you choose to focus on.

Someone said those who don’t like charismatics resent all the fun they have. I do like charismatics, but honestly have difficulty with the fact that they seem to disengage their intellects and ride on feelings and emotions and say illogical things like we have to choose between focusing on suffering or resurrection, and not even see the problem with it. They make things up like this and believe it. Show me a saint that ever said something like this.

Being Charismatic does not mean that I have not had any difficult periods in my life. As guanophore mentions in his last post, the release of the gifts within my life has helped with the fortitude necessary to endure. I am strengthened by the Holy Spirit throughout my trials. The Apostles were told that they would be persecuted and brought to trial but not to worry because the Holy Spirit would give them the words necessary. Their testimony is a public testimony.
On the mountain during the Transfiguration, the Apostles wanted to build three tents but Jesus reminded them that they needed to come down from the mountain and into the valley. Remaining on the mountain can be a temptation. We are not called to ignore the realities of life. The athlete while running the race sweats and muscles may cramp but he keeps going. He sees before him the finish line.
Time spent in prayer whether on the mountain or in the valley is necessary. The fruit of the Spirit described in Galations 5:22-23 (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control) appears only after cultivation, time spent in public and private prayer. It is called a sacrifice of praise because it is given when I may not necessarily feel like it. A friend even gave advice on how to regain joy lost during troubled times. As you walk through the valley say “praise” as your left foot hits the ground and “glory” each time the right foot strikes. “Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I say rejoice.”(Phil 4:4)
My focus needs to be on God and not myself in order to walk in the light of the Resurrection. This lifting of heart and mind to Christ allows me to focus on whatever I am called to do at the moment. “I have the strength for everything through him who empowers me.” (Phil 4:13)

 

[Doug50]

The Holy Spirit has been in your spiritual house since the time of your Baptism. Too many people ignore this “guest”. Instead of seeing this Him as a spirtual instructor that Thomas Aquina tells us He is, today, people see Him in the image as a kind of party clown here to seed only joy into their lives - like an endless birthday party. What people want is what I’ve heard termed “spiritual utilitarianism” - - what’s in this for me or how do we “create a better life for ourselves”? People demand homilies be ever more entertaining and uplifting…what about dry or painful truths? “For some people, it [the charismatic gifts] helps them to develop spiritual fortitude.” I think that’s a crock and an example of what Martinez defined as the needs of weak soul. To quote a previous poster: “Some people think they will suffer nobly and with courage. What an illusion. Suffering is bitter and desolate and alone”. This was said by the Saint Mother Teresa took her name from and who died at 24 in agony, Therese of the Child Jesus.

 

[grandfather]

Conscience informed by intellect is our guide. This has to do with knowing. If I experience the gift of spiritual joy it is an emotion, which is good, because God made us with emotion and He became man and experienced everything it is to be human, but for sin, including emotion. It is easy to get confused and try to use this emotional experience from God with knowing. I can take it as a way of confirming my spiritual condition, that all is well, and to some extent it is. The Holy Spirit, the Comforter is the giver of joy to my soul. But what was going on in me intellectually, in knowing, that led to joy? It is the realization in faith that God loves me, forgives me, wants to be with me forever, for one thing. The emotion opposite joy is sorrow. Does the Holy Spirit also bring me to sorrow? He does. How am I convicted of my sin if not by the Holy Ghost? So I experience these two seemingly opposing emotions, joy and sorrow to the point of tears, and even experience them simultaneously. I don’t seek this. I don’t ask God for joy, because I want to feel good. It just comes. I think about God and joy comes, and sorrow also. A title for Mary is Sorrowful Mother, Our Lady of Sorrows. When one is emmersed in these emotions deeply they seem to merge and it is both painful and delightful at the same time. This is all good, to know or experience these things. There are two kinds of knowing one is of the intellect and the other is in experience. We can not allow experiential knowing to be our guide, because we can be decieved there. The knowing that is our guide is the knowledge that comes through faith in that which God has revealed to all. But it is easy to see how we might have wonderful spiritual experiences, that always affect us emotionally, and try to rely on them as the guide or sign that we are on the right path, spiritually healthy, and then therefore seek these highs.

 

[DebChris]

The Holy Spirit has been in your spiritual house since the time of your Baptism. Too many people ignore this “guest”. Instead of seeing this Him as a spirtual instructor that Thomas Aquina tells us He is, today, people see Him in the image as a kind of party clown here to seed only joy into their lives - like an endless birthday party. What people want is what I’ve heard termed “spiritual utilitarianism” - - what’s in this for me or how do we “create a better life for ourselves”? People demand homilies be ever more entertaining and uplifting…what about dry or painful truths? “For some people, it [the charismatic gifts] helps them to develop spiritual fortitude.” I think that’s a crock and an example of what Martinez defined as the needs of weak soul. To quote a previous poster: “Some people think they will suffer nobly and with courage. What an illusion. Suffering is bitter and desolate and alone”. This was said by the Saint Mother Teresa took her name from and who died at 24 in agony, Therese of the Child Jesus.

As has been stated many times, we each received the Holy Spirit at Baptism and Confirmation. As guanophore posted, a room may be wired for lights but until the switch is flipped there is no light. There is no power until the lamp is plugged into the powersource.
At the Jesus Day conference I attended in Chicago, one of the messages was to do everything I could in a given situation. After that, sit back, relax, and expect a miracle. In my own life, I had reached a dead end after doing everything possible. This led me to an Easter retreat beginning on Holy Thursday. I received my miracle, the baptism of the Holy Spirit that same Ascension Thursday and was empowered to continue. This empowerment did not change the circumstances of my life but gave me new insight as to how to proceed.
Experience is real and does not overshadow what my conscience tells me to do in order to walk with Christ. Jesus said, “I came that they might have life.” Suffering and sorrow are very real life experiences as is pain. I know, however, that I draw my strength from Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. I am but a branch on the vine.
While Steven was being stoned, he saw the clouds opened up and one like the Son of Man. There are stories of the early martyrs singing as they entered the colliseum to be devoured by lions. There is also eyewitness testimony of the martyrdom of Maximillian Kolbe. Those who died with him continued in prayer and song, unlike those in other bunkers who cried and cursed God. To be a martyr is to be a witness to the greatness of God even when facing hardship and death. Martyr means witness.

 

[guanophore]

The Holy Spirit has been in your spiritual house since the time of your Baptism. Too many people ignore this “guest”.

Exactly! this is why the Charismatic Renewal has been so helpful to many of the faithful, helping then to be better hosts/hostesses to that Spirit on a daily basis.

Instead of seeing this Him as a spirtual instructor that Thomas Aquina tells us He is, today, people see Him in the image as a kind of party clown here to seed only joy into their lives - like an endless birthday party.

I have known some Pentecostals like this. However, I think it is unfair to judge everyone by what certain superficial emotional persons do.

What people want is what I’ve heard termed “spiritual utilitarianism” - - what’s in this for me or how do we “create a better life for ourselves”?

This is a natural human desire.

People demand homilies be ever more entertaining and uplifting…what about dry or painful truths?

I would be satisfied with something that has some substance.

“For some people, it [the charismatic gifts] helps them to develop spiritual fortitude.” I think that’s a crock and an example of what Martinez defined as the needs of weak soul.

I don’t understand this. What is a crock? If you know that people have weak souls, and need help to develop spiritual fortitude, what is the crock? I don’t understand why you would not encourage weak souls even more to grow?

To quote a previous poster: “Some people think they will suffer nobly and with courage. What an illusion. Suffering is bitter and desolate and alone”. This was said by the Saint Mother Teresa took her name from and who died at 24 in agony, Therese of the Child Jesus.

Not everyone is called or gifted to suffer in this way. We each have our own vocation in life, and our own suffering that is assigned to us as our cross to bear. Mother Teresa and Therese are heroic souls that bore their suffering with great dignity and focus. Not all souls are graced with such dignity or ability. The Lord works with people where they are, and is gentle with the weak. A bruised reed He will not break, nor a smoldering wick will he put out.

You make it sound like people should not seek any consolation, but just pull up their bootstraps, suck it up, offer it up and move on!

 

[guanophore]

Conscience informed by intellect is our guide. This has to do with knowing. If I experience the gift of spiritual joy it is an emotion, which is good, because God made us with emotion and He became man and experienced everything it is to be human, but for sin, including emotion. It is easy to get confused and try to use this emotional experience from God with knowing. I can take it as a way of confirming my spiritual condition, that all is well, and to some extent it is. The Holy Spirit, the Comforter is the giver of joy to my soul. But what was going on in me intellectually, in knowing, that led to joy? It is the realization in faith that God loves me, forgives me, wants to be with me forever, for one thing. The emotion opposite joy is sorrow. Does the Holy Spirit also bring me to sorrow? He does. How am I convicted of my sin if not by the Holy Ghost? So I experience these two seemingly opposing emotions, joy and sorrow to the point of tears, and even experience them simultaneously. I don’t seek this. I don’t ask God for joy, because I want to feel good. It just comes. I think about God and joy comes, and sorrow also. A title for Mary is Sorrowful Mother, Our Lady of Sorrows. When one is emmersed in these emotions deeply they seem to merge and it is both painful and delightful at the same time. This is all good, to know or experience these things. There are two kinds of knowing one is of the intellect and the other is in experience. We can not allow experiential knowing to be our guide, because we can be decieved there. The knowing that is our guide is the knowledge that comes through faith in that which God has revealed to all. But it is easy to see how we might have wonderful spiritual experiences, that always affect us emotionally, and try to rely on them as the guide or sign that we are on the right path, spiritually healthy, and then therefore seek these highs.

Your post indicates a prejudice against non-intellectual ways of knowing. Experiential knowlege is not somehow less pure or reliable than intellectual knowledge. One can be led astray just as well through the intellect as one can by through emotion.

I disagree that the opposite of joy is sorrow. They are two sides of the same coin, yes, but opposite both of them is nihilism. The feeling of emptiness, depression, and numbness that prevents one from feeling either one. I agree that emotional “highs” should not be sought, or the gifts either (rather seek the Giver), but the knowing that comes through intuition, and other non-intellctual sources is just as valid and reliable as intellect. In our Western culture, we have not been taught to develop and use it properly, that is the problem.

 

[po18guy]

The Holy Spirit has been in your spiritual house since the time of your Baptism. Too many people ignore this “guest”. Instead of seeing this Him as a spirtual instructor that Thomas Aquina tells us He is, today, people see Him in the image as a kind of party clown here to seed only joy into their lives - like an endless birthday party. What people want is what I’ve heard termed “spiritual utilitarianism” - - what’s in this for me or how do we “create a better life for ourselves”? People demand homilies be ever more entertaining and uplifting…what about dry or painful truths? “For some people, it [the charismatic gifts] helps them to develop spiritual fortitude.” I think that’s a crock and an example of what Martinez defined as the needs of weak soul. To quote a previous poster: “Some people think they will suffer nobly and with courage. What an illusion. Suffering is bitter and desolate and alone”. This was said by the Saint Mother Teresa took her name from and who died at 24 in agony, Therese of the Child Jesus.

Doug50, why not take the time you put into all of your thoughtful responses, and devote it to PRAYER on behalf of those whose behaviors you disagree with. Since they clearly have not been convinced of your point of view, why not put the Lord on the job?

 

[grandfather]

Your post indicates a prejudice against non-intellectual ways of knowing. Experiential knowlege is not somehow less pure or reliable than intellectual knowledge. One can be led astray just as well through the intellect as one can by through emotion.

It is not my opinion that we are guided by conscience informed by intellect. The Church teaches this. My personal intellect (knowing) can err or fail to grasp truth. Catholic dogma can not err. I know and understand dogma with my intellect, not personal experience. Personal experience without a conscience formed by intellect says if it feels good do it. This is the ideology behind the sexual revolution in the material world and pentecostalism in the spiritual realm. It feels good so I know it must be right. I went to a prayer meeting and had this experience and I just know it is of God is a theme echoed by the prentacistal types. Personal spiritual experience could be valid and from God, but we can not be sure, because all personal revelation is somewhat unreliable. We can not rely on it. This is again not my opinion or bias. It is what the Church teaches. How many stories do we read about of people committing serious crimes claiming God told them to do it? Some of them must have had some personal experience of some sort they sincerely believed was real. If we let our personal experience non-intellectual way of knowing guide us this can happen. If we are guided by faith, knowing the truths God revealed to all, contained in public revelation and guarded by the Church in her teaching authority we will not go wrong. This does not mean personal spiritual experience is bad or false. The saints had many encounters with God and always submitted themselves to the authority of the Church.

 

[Doug50]

Doug50, why not take the time you put into all of your thoughtful responses, and devote it to PRAYER on behalf of those whose behaviors you disagree with. Since they clearly have not been convinced of your point of view, why not put the Lord on the job?

What makes you so sure I don’t? Ever hear of tough love? Hard hitting points and sarcasms can get to truths more pointedly then pretend sweetness.

 

[Doug50]

Your post indicates a prejudice against non-intellectual ways of knowing. Experiential knowlege is not somehow less pure or reliable than intellectual knowledge. One can be led astray just as well through the intellect as one can by through emotion.

I disagree that the opposite of joy is sorrow. They are two sides of the same coin, yes, but opposite both of them is nihilism. The feeling of emptiness, depression, and numbness that prevents one from feeling either one. I agree that emotional “highs” should not be sought, or the gifts either (rather seek the Giver), but the knowing that comes through intuition, and other non-intellctual sources is just as valid and reliable as intellect. In our Western culture, we have not been taught to develop and use it properly, that is the problem.

Mother Teresa’s dark night of the soul produced luminous life
There is, of course, no answer that will rationally satisfy the Hitchenses [athests] of this world, but there is the sure knowledge that comes from faith.

In “Guidelines to Mystical Prayer” (Dimensions, 1980), the Carmelite sister Ruth Burrows perceptively explains from her own mystical experience that those who have some level of union with God will likely “know” God, but they will not know how they are knowing. The knowing bypasses our finite intellect and consciousness so we can know that we know God, yet we may spend our lives in a spiritual aridity.

That is why in writing about the dark night of the soul, the classic mystics such as the 16th century’s Spanish saint, Teresa of Avila, always stressed **that our feelings and any experiences **of God are not indicators of spiritual depth or union.

Rather a genuine life is the most profound witness to a life of union with God.

In a time of aridity, Saint John of the Cross, another Spanish mystic and a contemporary of Teresa of Avila, advised in his book, “Dark Night I”: “Be content simply with a loving and peaceful attentiveness to God.” To some, that advice can seem like a cruel joke. How could I be lovingly attentive to someone who seems so completely absent?

 

[Michael_Francis]

Having drifted from its topic, “Charismatic gifts”, to other matters not related, this thread is now closed.
MF