CHARISMATIC HYSTERIA

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Well, first reason is to fulfill the philosophical principal that one cannot talk about what one has never seen. secondly, out of human respect in which case friends have insisted I go. However, as I told a friend of mine the other day, I would rather wait till later to go to purgatory. I don’t want purgatory while I am alive.:tiphat:
 
You equate going to a Charismatic Mass with being in Purgatory? You must really find them distastetful!!! :eek:
 
👍 Yes.
Oh by the way, I am a kind, well educated(B.A. Theology from a famous local catholic University) NEW YORKER. We see all kinds here, and all. Yes, we are not naive: a brady bunch type. I love my City.
 
I’m glad you’re kind and well educated. Now, I’d better go examine my consience, do my prayers and hit the hay. I got low census at the hospital tonight, but I’m on call. Saw some fireworks with the kids luckily. God is good.

I’m sure those charismatics love God and will go to Heaven, btw. They seem really nice and enthusiastic, don’t you think? Very precious people, IMO.
Good night! 🙂
 
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misericordie:
It is quite funny actually that some have mentioned that NO, Vatican II never said the organ is to be highly esteemed as the instrument of preference, and that Gregorian Chant is also to be given priority in the Roman Rite, and that polyphony is also to be valued. Now, is this then not true?? Did the Vatican say this or Not? And if it did, then why is it being contested?
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This can not be contested, because the document is very clear in its praise of these musical styles. There is no doubt that they are the only musical styles explicitly recommended.
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misericordie:
Yes, (sad to say) the Vatican did give some leeway to bishops regarding their dioceses and instruments used, but then did the document actually specifically, and by name say: electric guitars, drums, etc.?
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The document says other musical styles may be allowed, but it does not name anything else. This is because it explicitly leaves the decision in the hands of the local bishops, presumably because local bishops would be more familiar with the cultures in their dioceses. Again, the document is very clear here.
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misericordie:
In any logic class one is always taught to attack the argument, not the one who makes it. To do otherwise would be to mimic current politics.
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Could you please present a logical attack on this argument?

A. All evidence presented thus far from Church authorities (documents and members of the hierarchy) supports the assertion that the charismatic style of worship can be a valid and licit form of worship in the Mass. (The document gives the bishops leeway; the bishops approve charismatic Masses, and cardinals and the Pope have voiced their support of the charismatic movement.)

B. There has been no evidence presented from Church authorities denying that the charismatic style of worship is a valid and licit form of worship in the Catholic Mass.

C. Therefore, the charismatic style of worship can be a valid and licit form of worship in the Mass. The presence of charismatic elements in a Mass does not mean the Mass is invalid, illicit, or not Catholic.
 
naknek, there are people who still don’t believ the world is round. hence, I am ONLY using all Church documents and tradition to say(I believe I still have a First Ammendment Right to express my views: plus the right Confirmation gave me to speak up about the faith) AGAIN that the Church NEVER said use electric guitars, drums, etc, but HAS said that Gregorian Chant, Polyphony and the Organ are to be the main worship methods. You seem to imply that the Vatican has given thge Bishop papacy over his diocese. NOT:rolleyes: . If that were the case, we would not still be waiting for a new Roman Missal, or the lectionary (full of inclusive: politically correct language) that the AMERICAN Bishops sent to Rome for approval, would not have been sent BACK for re-do, by orders of Rome. Lets not forget please that the Pope still is the Vicar of Christ on Earth, not the local Bishop(some are more interested in playing Golf than correcting these pop-hip-hop, rock and roll masses). WHY has the Vatican intervened so many times to overide many decisions the USA Bishops have made? Well, of course the ones in the USA are the more liberal ones, of the WHOLE world! But, also because some of them abuse thier authority to shut orthodox priests, while giving lee-way to those involved in weird life-styles.
I would re-post ALL by postings once again, but I don't want to be repetitive. In the meantime i will only:ehh: :yawn: yawn.
 
Of course the Pope has authority over the bishops. And when the Vatican has perceived abuses by the bishops, it has not hesitated to correct them. But I do not believe it has done so with respect to the inclusion of charismatic singing/swaying/etc. in the Mass. Do you have any evidence that it has?
 
Actually yes: The LATEST!! Document from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments(Cardinal Arize), ijn which he points to liturgical abuses which rise out of false charity. Though he does not actually say charismatics, he does point to what is to be done and avoided in Mass, and in his what is to be avoided list, are things that take place in most charismatic Masses.

The documents name is: Redemptionis Sacramentum.:clapping:
 
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misericordie:
Actually yes: The LATEST!! Document from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments(Cardinal Arize), ijn which he points to liturgical abuses which rise out of false charity. The documents name is: Redemptionis Sacramentum.:clapping:
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Thanks for the reference! The document is available online. I could only find three references to music in the document, and none of them says anything about the style of music in the Mass. It does reaffirm the bishops’ authority in this matter, though. Here are the references:
*
[25.] Commissions as well as councils or committees established by the Bishop to handle “the promotion of the Liturgy, sacred music and art in his diocese” should act in accordance with the intentions and the norms of the Bishop;

[53.] While the Priest proclaims the Eucharistic Prayer “there should be no other prayers or singing, and the organ or other musical instruments should be silent”

[57.] It is the right of the community of Christ’s faithful that especially in the Sunday celebration there should customarily be true and suitable sacred music, and that there should always be an altar, vestments and sacred linens that are dignified, proper, and clean, in accordance with the norms.*

What part of the document were you referring to, that would effectively render the charismatic style of worship illicit?
 

169 , #170. Since anything which departs from the official liturgical books, reverence, and rubrics, would be seen as: “falsification of the liturgy”, it would then be accurate to state that many charismatic Masses do fall under that category, since of course the hip-hop style, the scramings of aleluya while mass is going on(by lay people) the priests coming into mass dancing merengue, the maracas, drums, and dances during mass which are similar to the hussle, can all be seen as: FALSIFICATION OF THE LITURGY.​

This being said, I will now:yawn: :yawn: yawn.
 
OH!! Yes, I forgot # 53, while the Eucharistic acclamation is taking place, all should be silent, that word is NEVER present in many charismatic masses. It seems noise=adoration of God for many.

:yawn: :yawn: :yawn:
 
Well, those two passages do discuss remedies for abuse, but they don’t do anything to define specific abuses (those are discussed earlier in the document) – and they certainly don’t say anything one way or the other about any style of music. Looks like the charismatic style of worship is still OK, then.

*[169.] Whenever an abuse is committed in the celebration of the sacred Liturgy, it is to be seen as a real falsification of Catholic Liturgy. St Thomas wrote, “the vice of falsehood is perpetrated by anyone who offers worship to God on behalf of the Church in a manner contrary to that which is established by the Church with divine authority, and to which the Church is accustomed”.[278]

[170.] In order that a remedy may be applied to such abuses, “there is a pressing need for the biblical and liturgical formation of the people of God, both pastors and faithful”,[279] so that the Church’s faith and discipline concerning the sacred Liturgy may be accurately presented and understood. Where abuses persist, however, proceedings should be undertaken for safeguarding the spiritual patrimony and rights of the Church in accordance with the law, employing all legitimate means.*

Anyway, I’m getting a bit tired myself … and I’m on the West Coast! So I’m off for now. I appreciate your time so far! 👍
 
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misericordie:
OH!! Yes, I forgot # 53, while the Eucharistic acclamation is taking place, all should be silent, that word is NEVER present in many charismatic masses. It seems noise=adoration of God for many.

:yawn: :yawn: :yawn:
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Can’t argue with that – it’s there in black and white! If anyone is ignoring that rule in a Mass, they should change that behavior, obviously.

Bye for now!
 
Trutth is never relative. Some people are desperate to prove a liturgical abuse as OKAY. NOT:rolleyes:
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 I am not yawning of sleepines, but of sheer boredom of going around in circles here.:yawn:           Like I said, it is still hard to convince someone the Earth really is round when their mind is made up to believe otherwise.
When arguments are posted here addressed to me that charismatic masses are ALL fine and dandy, no problem, I will respond with:   :yawn: , then a:ehh: , and another :yawn: .
               :rolleyes: .
 
Misericordie,

Can you please cite for me the document that specifically prohibits electric guitars and drums?

Thank you.
 
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misericordie:
naknek, there are people who still don’t believ the world is round. hence, I am ONLY using all Church documents and tradition to say(I believe I still have a First Ammendment Right to express my views: plus the right Confirmation gave me to speak up about the faith) AGAIN that the Church NEVER said use electric guitars, drums, etc, but HAS said that Gregorian Chant, Polyphony and the Organ are to be the main worship methods. You seem to imply that the Vatican has given thge Bishop papacy over his diocese. NOT:rolleyes: . If that were the case, we would not still be waiting for a new Roman Missal, or the lectionary (full of inclusive: politically correct language) that the AMERICAN Bishops sent to Rome for approval, would not have been sent BACK for re-do, by orders of Rome. Lets not forget please that the Pope still is the Vicar of Christ on Earth, not the local Bishop(some are more interested in playing Golf than correcting these pop-hip-hop, rock and roll masses). WHY has the Vatican intervened so many times to overide many decisions the USA Bishops have made? Well, of course the ones in the USA are the more liberal ones, of the WHOLE world! But, also because some of them abuse thier authority to shut orthodox priests, while giving lee-way to those involved in weird life-styles.
Code: 
  I would re-post ALL by postings once again, but I don't want to be repetitive.  In the meantime i will only:ehh: :yawn: yawn.
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While the Pope does have authority over the Bishops, the Bishops have a significant amount of authority over their own dioceses.
 
The Organ is th Instrument of precedence, Gregorian Chant and polyphony. THIS IS THE only SPECIFIC (yes, by name) instument and SACRED Music Vatican II mentions.

Let me change the question to make it less relative: Can anyone tell me where in the Vatican II documents, or in any document in the last 2000 years or so of Catholic history, the electric guitar, drums, and rock and roll masses (not to mention the charismatic mass I went to where the priest was dancing merengue) Are given PRECEDENCE or SPECIFICALLY recommended as Instruments of worship???
Remember, it is not a “me” “me” “me” mass, but a God centered Mass which the Church intends. hence getting the entertainment Masses are not kosher.
Wait: I am starting to:yawn: :yawn: yawn. No, the Earth IS round.
 
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