CHARISMATIC HYSTERIA

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DigitalDeaconIt’s funny how the Church after 2000 years is just now getting to know the Holy Spirit through the Charismatic movement.

I am so glad for the Charismatic movement because finally after 2000 years we can finally know how to worship God.

Sounds silly doesn’t it? Did it ever dawn on you that perhaps just perhaps the Charismatic movement is not from God?

Just a thought…

God Bless!
 
How do you know there is no such thing as a charismatic parish? Have you checked with the bishop of every diocese in the church to see if they have given permission for a charismatic parish in their diocese? I know you are wrong because I attend a parish that is specifically designated by the Bishop of our diocese to be a personal parish (not a georgraphic or ethnic one) with a charismatic orientation.
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misericordie:
With all respect, it seems you don’t seems you REFUSE to see that the charismatic movement has had the deviations I previously posted. I did post VARIOUS examples on this threadf as to the HOW and the WHAt. However, you state that I don’t explain. IF the examples I set here are not what has happened at YOUR parish, well good. However, please don’t deny that it occurs in MOST charismatic masses. Also, there is NO SUCH thing as a Charismatic PARISH. There are however, CATHOLIC parishes, which tolerate or support the Charismatic renewal. When we humans are brain-washed into a certain idea, and someone comes along who disagrees with us, psychological denial usually comes into place.

You imply that your postings to this thread, seem to be to difficult for me to understand. The contrary has been true, it it to simplistic, and basically, fails to recognize that there has been for the majority, a total deviation from TRUE liturgical worship based on catholic TRADITION, in the charismatic renewal. Furthermore you are making arguments to subjectivally deny that, and go on to make certain statements full of fallacy BECAUSE they lack objectivity, and don’t focus on THE TOPIC but rather on ME. That in philosophical-logical argumentation is: a fallacy.
Also, with all the proof here on liturgical dancing and the rest of liturgical abuse, which DO for the most part happen at “charismatic” parishes, many still fail to accept that something HAS been wrong with the charismatic renewal(NOT THE PEOPLE: NO ONE IN PARTICULAR) in general, and until those deviations are recognized, they will CONTINUE to happen.
I end by stating yes, there are great holy people in the charismatic renewal, but most members, DO need to study very carefully the Liturgical laws and books on that liturgy, and the Mass, in order that the Mass does not become a personal whim, but rather, what the church as Mater et Magistra (Mother and Teacher) intend it to be, as found in the Rubrics of the Mass, and Liturgical law: AND HENCE JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF WHO SPEAKS TO US IN A PERFECT WAY THROUGH THE CHURCH, MORE SO THAN EVEN ON A PERSONAL WAY.
On any future post I make on this thread, I will only point to all my previous ones here, which I re-affirm.
May the peace of Christ and Mother Mary bless everyone here.:tiphat:
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t3502rc:
How do you know there is no such thing as a charismatic parish? Have you checked with the bishop of every diocese in the church to see if they have given permission for a charismatic parish in their diocese? I know you are wrong because I attend a parish that is specifically designated by the Bishop of our diocese to be a personal parish (not a georgraphic or ethnic one) with a charismatic orientation.
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I thought parishes were supposed to be open to all catholics, not just a charismatic group? What’s next, a neo-catechumenate parish? A polka Parish? A mariachi parish?
:yawn: :ehh: :yawn: .
:blessyou:
 
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aByzantineCatho:
DigitalDeaconIt’s funny how the Church after 2000 years is just now getting to know the Holy Spirit through the Charismatic movement.

I am so glad for the Charismatic movement because finally after 2000 years we can finally know how to worship God.

Sounds silly doesn’t it? Did it ever dawn on you that perhaps just perhaps the Charismatic movement is not from God?

Just a thought…

God Bless!
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Good use of a straw man. That is definitely a misrepresentation of the Charismatic movement.
 
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misericordie:
I thought parishes were supposed to be open to all catholics, not just a charismatic group? What’s next, a neo-catechumenate parish? A polka Parish? A mariachi parish?
:yawn: :ehh: :yawn: .
:blessyou:
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There are territorial parishes and personal parishes. Territorial parishes are for those of a particular region, and personal parishes are for those of a particular background, such as a particular ethnic group. All are open to all Catholics.
 
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misericordie:
The Organ is th Instrument of precedence, Gregorian Chant and polyphony. THIS IS THE only SPECIFIC (yes, by name) instument and SACRED Music Vatican II mentions.

Let me change the question to make it less relative: Can anyone tell me where in the Vatican II documents, or in any document in the last 2000 years or so of Catholic history, the electric guitar, drums, and rock and roll masses (not to mention the charismatic mass I went to where the priest was dancing merengue) Are given PRECEDENCE or SPECIFICALLY recommended as Instruments of worship???
Remember, it is not a “me” “me” “me” mass, but a God centered Mass which the Church intends. hence getting the entertainment Masses are not kosher.
Wait: I am starting to:yawn: :yawn: yawn. No, the Earth IS round.
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What are the objective reasons for why drums and electric guitars cannot be used for sacred music? As it has been pointed out by others, other instruments and forms of music can be used besides those explicitly mentioned, in accordance with the determinations of the territorial authority.

Here is the logic of my position:
  1. Organ, Gregorian Chant, and Polyphony are to be given preference.
  2. The competent territorial authority can decide to allow the use of other instruments and musical expressions.
  3. Electric guitars and drums are instruments
  4. Electric guitars and drums are nowhere explicitly prohibited.
Therefore, while organ and the like are to be given preference, electric guitars and drums can be used.

In determining the truth of this situation, I do not care what your subjective feelings are about electric guitars and drums. Please provide a logical (I refer to formal logic) refutation of the argument I just presented.
 
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Prometheum_x:
What are the objective reasons for why drums and electric guitars cannot be used for sacred music? As it has been pointed out by others, other instruments and forms of music can be used besides those explicitly mentioned, in accordance with the determinations of the territorial authority.

Here is the logic of my position:
  1. Organ, Gregorian Chant, and Polyphony are to be given preference.
  2. The competent territorial authority can decide to allow the use of other instruments and musical expressions.
  3. Electric guitars and drums are instruments
  4. Electric guitars and drums are nowhere explicitly prohibited.
Therefore, while organ and the like are to be given preference, electric guitars and drums can be used.

In determining the truth of this situation, I do not care what your subjective feelings are about electric guitars and drums. Please provide a logical (I refer to formal logic) refutation of the argument I just presented.
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Promethiumx, It seems that all my above postings, which bear the evidence of proof(through various examples I have give about the charismatic movement and its praxis of liturgical abuse(again, I have pointed them out here, as well as others have FOR A WHILE NOW) but, as those who argue that the Earth seems NOT round, your questions seem to want answers from me that will be just repetitive, and to use a famuose phrase: will lead this topic in never ending circles.
Hence, I will respond to your “logic” by stating that, In order to not bore everyone by actually posting my posts all over again, I repeat in my mind ALL that I have posted here in this thread. Lastly, there is nothing more illogical than for any “catholic” group not willing to submit to Catholic Tradition, and what the Church has designated for centuries, as the proper way of worshiping in the MASS, and hence adoring in a horizontal fashion : (by mutual entertainment in Mass), rather then by the Vertical adoration of God, and for the sake of my thesis, one way of vertically adoring God is through Musica Sacra or Sacred Music, using the instruments, and genre of music Mother Church recomends. After all, I believe most catholics would agree that the Church has had more experience throughout all these centuries of how BEST to Liturgically worship God, and of course this is to be recognized by those who are obedient to the Official Magisterium of the Church, as opposed to those who obey only their own personal whims, and how THEY think the Church should worship. Oh wait, here it is again, :yawn: :ehh: :yawn: : Boredom of going around in circles. 😉
 
Baptism in the Holy Spirit
by Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFMCap

SUMMARY: The Baptism in the Spirit is not a sacrament, but it is related to several sacraments. The Baptism in the Spirit makes real and in a way renews Christian initiation. At the beginning of the Church, Baptism was administered to adults who converted from paganism and who, made on the occasion of Baptism, an act of faith and a free and mature choice. Today it is substituted instead by intermediary parents or godparents. In this situation, rarely, or never, does the baptized person ever reach the stage of proclaiming in the Holy Spirit “Jesus is Lord”. And until one reaches this point, everything else in the Christian life remains out of focus and immature. Miracles no longer happen and we experience what Jesus did in Nazareth: “Jesus could not perform many miracles because of their lack of faith” (Mt.13.58). The Baptism in the Spirit’s effectiveness in reactivating baptism consists in this: finally man contributes his part – namely, he makes a choice of faith, prepared in repentance, that allows the that allows the work of God to set itself free and to emanate all its strength. It is as if the plug is pulled and the light is switched on. The gift of God is finally “untied” and the Spirit is allowed to flow like a ftragrance in the Christian life.
ccc.garg.com/ccc/articles/Cantalamessa/Cantalamessa_002.html
 
Statement by Canadian Bishops on Catholic Charismatic Renewal

Before taking leave of his disciples, Jesus reassured them with these words: “And the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you” (John 14:26). He renewed their hope by promising them that he would not leave them orphaned, that his Spirit would come upon them, and that he would continue to be with them. If we needed a tangible sign that the risen Lord has kept his promise in this regard, the presence of the Charismatic Renewal in our Canadian Catholic Church is certainly one such telling sign.
ccr.org.au/canadianbishops.html
 
Question to Fr. Cantalamessa and I truly think this is your fear…
Q: As you are about to finish preaching a retreat attended by 1,000 Charismatic delegates from all over the world, what message would you like to give believers who do not know the Renewal?

Father Cantalamessa: I want to say to the faithful, to bishops, to priests, not to be afraid…

The Pope is not afraid. He has spoken of the ecclesial movements, and also of Charismatic Renewal, as signs of a new springtime of the Church, and he often stresses the importance of this. And Paul VI said it was an opportunity for the Church. There is no need for fear. There are episcopal conferences, for example in Latin America – this is true of Brazil – where the hierarchy has discovered that Charismatic Renewal is not a problem. It is part of the solution to the problem of Catholics who have left the Church because they don’t find in it a living word, a lived Bible, the possibility of expressing the faith in a joyful manner, in a free way, and Charismatic Renewal is a formidable means that the Lord has given the Church so that one can live an experience of the Spirit, Pentecostal, in the Catholic Church, without the need to leave the Church.

Nor should Charismatic Renewal be regarded as an “island” where some emotional people get together. It is not an island. It is a grace meant for all the baptized. The external signs can be different, but in its essence, it is an experience meant for all the baptized.
 
There are several on here that continue to screme out wanting to be heard in thier own opinion and that is all it is because they have failed repeatedly to offer any creadence to back up what they are saying. While those who have been involved with the Renewal for years have given you document after document from the highest prelates of the Roman Catholic Church and you refuse to hear what they are saying to YOU!

I would like to say thank you to those of you who have not been involved with the Charismatic Renewal but have spoken up for it.

Since you are constantly refering to the Bishops…yes there are many who walk in all the Charisms that the Holy Spirit has to give, including tongues. Here is a statement by them concerning the Charismatic Renwal.
And yes there are many Bishops who opereate in the Charisms of the Holy Spirit, Bishop Sam Jacobs for one…

Grace For The New Springtime
A Statement from the United States Catholic Conference of Bishops
on the Charismatic Renewal
Foreword

In its thirty years of existence, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal has brought personal spiritual renewal to the lives of millions of priests, deacons, religious, and lay Catholics. It has called countless alienated Catholics to reconciliation with the Lord and with the Church. It has deepened a love for Jesus and the Church among young people as well as so many others, including the unchurched.

Thus, for us, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is one of the signs of hope our Holy Father is referring to as “present in the last part of this century” when he speaks of “a greater attention to the voice of the Spirit through the acceptance of charisms and the promotion of the laity.” (Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 46)

We believe that “the renewed outpouring of the Spirit of Pentecost in our times” (cf. Called and Gifted for the Third Millennium, NCCB USCC) is particularly present in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and in the grace of baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Baptism in the Holy Spirit is empowerment of individuals and of the Church for its mission in the world: the proclamation of the Lordship of Jesus Christ and of His power to transform society.

Mary
Authentic Marian devotion and imitation is a welcome and growing dimension of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in the United States. Mary, Mother of the Church, who was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit “when the fullness of time had come” (Gal 4:4), will “lead the men and women of the new millennium toward the One who is `the true light that enlightens every man’ (Jn. 1:9).” (Tertio, 59) It is thus with great anticipation that we find within the Renewal this joyful awareness of the relationship of Mary and the Holy Spirit.
ccc.garg.com/ccc/articles/nonattributed/US_Bishops_001.html

Pani Rose
 
I am new to this thread, and am a Catholic Charismatic, but I feel I must speak to defend the Catholic Charismatic Movement because it has been maligned in this forum by people who either don’t have a clue about Scriptures, tradition and the doctrines of the Holy Catholic Church, or take pleasure in denouncing the spiritual experiences of other people.

There are probably folks here who have never made a Life in the Spirit Seminar but feel free to cast stones at a renewal movement that has not only had the blessings of several Popes, including JP II, and Bishops, but has affected more than 10 million faithful Catholics thruout the world.

To start with, the Pentecostal Movement is neither Protestant or Catholic. The Holy Spirit’s work is mentioned thruout the Bible, Old and New Testament alike.

Mary [who probably was given the gift of tongues] and the Apostles experienced the “infilling of the Holy Spirit” in the upper room, as described in the Acts of the Apostels (l;14) Jesus’s disciples are described as “devoting themselves to constant prayer” until the Holy Spirit came upon them. At Pentecost the Spirit filled their incomplete lives, freed them from fear, and gave them the courage to proclaim “Jesus is Lord!” Their new awareness of God’s power in their lives drew them into communities of loving service and witness to the world, and inspired them to be willing to lay down their lives for the kingdom.

The Holy Spirit continues to play an important role in the Church’s rebirth and renewal in our day.

Pentecostal experiences have taken place thruout the Catholic Church’s history, and judging from testimonies recorded in the biography of the saints, many of them displayed “charisms” similar to those displayed at Pentecostal prayer meetings. These manifestations of the Holy Spirit generally appeard at times of great darkness in the world, similar to the times we are now living in.

The Catholic Charismatic Movement is monitored by Diocesan liaisons, directed by priests who act as spiritual moderators and guides, in case any abuses might occur.
Abuses have occurred in this renewal movement, as in every other renewal movement - including the Marion Movement, which has its own case history of abuses.

I hope to continue to educate readers here as to the authenticity of this experience in our day and time.
 
Good Morning Church
Greetings Pani Rose!
Great posts and wonderful quotes.
I will be attending the SCRC Catholic Charismatic Convention in Anaheim CA over Labor Day weekend. The Laison for the Charismatic Renewal to the Holy Father will be there, once again.
I have copied many of the posts I have read here, and plan to make an appointment with him. I know as a fact, he has the Holy Fathers’ ear. He is also the one who has the most information and responsible for keeping us up to date with the latest rules.

It is not and has never been the goal or desire of Charismatic leadership to be disobedient to the Holy Father or Holy Mother Church. We have diligently worked to keep order and to correct any abuses as they arise. We will continue to do so.

However, the fact is, we have been encouraged by the Holy Father and our Bishops and Priests over the years. As evidence, there have been many quotes from them posted here, certainly not all of them.

On the other hand, I have not seen a single quote where the Charismatic Renewal has been named in any writing by the Holy Father or anyone else in high authority asking us to cease and desist from anything. Nothing whatsoever, being addressed to the Charismatic Renewal.

As long as we receive the above mentioned words of approval, I plan to continue to worship just as I do.

It would be wise to pray whether anyone here would grieve or attempt to stifle the Holy Spirit. There is always the slightest possibility you could be wrong.
 
What is all the fuss about musical instruments used in the worship of God?

King David sang songs of worship and the ancients used harps, lyres, flutes, drums, cymbals,etc., whatever instrument made a beautiful “noise” unto the Lord.

Please do not limit the people of God in the methods they use for worship. Charismatic Masses should follow all of the required norms for masses. That is why we have Diocesan liaisons to control any abuses. And if you have observed any abuses, contact the Bishop of that Diocese. I do the same when I observe abuses at non-Charismatic masses. And, believe me, they are legion!

That guitars, pianos, tamberines, etc., are used for musical accompaniement, do not break the Church’s rules. Organs can also be used, if that is the group’s preference.

That we are exuberant in our worship, should not shock anyone. Shokingly, Mary and the Apostles appeared “drunk” with exhiliration when observed on the first day of Pentecost. They babbled in tongues, made prophetic exhortations, probably jumped up and down with joy and danced, because the Holy Spirit had set them free from their fears and sorrows, and filled them with the power to to GO OUT and Preach the Gospel to the whole world. Some three thousand converts were made that day. WOW!

And you’re griping about a little show of enthusiasm by the Pentecostals! ???

And you are saying this movement is not from God? Christ said, “Those who are not against me are for me.” One cannot praise the Lord without having the Holy Spirit within him/her. That is a foundational belief of Christians. Satan does not praise the Lord! Only those filled with the Grace of the Holy Spirit, praise the Lord!

Your argument is not with Pentecostals - your argument is with God and the way He wishes to display His Presence, His Power, His Gifts, His Love. Always remember - God’s ways are NOT our ways.

For those who are “up tight” about the emotions displayed by Pentecostals, you really need to seek out the Holy Spirit and be set free from the “chains” of unbelief that bind you. What you have done is falsely presumed that God is not pleased with this kind of emotional behavior and exuberant style of worship! Then God must not have been pleased by Blessed Virgin
Mary and the Disciples of Jesus in the upper room!

You’ve got God in a box, my friend. The box that you have created with your own limited mind.
 
Good Morning Church

Good Morning Arlene Alice

Wow! Awesome posts! Wish I could express myself so beautifully.
 
Totally awesome! God is good all the time and all the time God is good!

Pani Rose 👍
 
All this **CHARISMATIC **stuff is Hog wash!

If you:
  1. Go to confession
  2. Receive the Eucharist
  3. Stop ticking off God with you Sins
  4. Pray
  5. Read the Bible
  6. Tithe 10% to a GOOD Church or Charity
The you will have NO need to flop on the floor like fish!

God Bless!
 
Clearly the Renewal is not for everyone. That’s fine. But it **is ** for some people, and the Pope says that’s fine, too. I for one plan to go with what the Holy Father has to say on the matter. I hope and pray that the world will be united in praise of God and in the love of Christ.

Thanks to everyone who has posted here, whether or not you agree with the Charismatic Renewal. I hope some of you do not mind if I have added bits of your posts in defensed of the Renewal to my file on Charismatic Catholicism.

I believe it is time for this particular thread to die. Insults like the one above mean that the substantive information has all been shared and nothing is left to say but “Is too” and “Is not.” I hope that one of the moderators will lock this puppy down and put it to bed.

And I eagerly invite any and every one of you to one of our weekly Sunday afternoon prayer meetings. Also we are having a Mass on August 15th, to celebrate and bless the upcoming school year. The priest who head up our local seminary will be praying the Mass for us. You are invited to attend. 👍

www.lumen2000.com
 
It’s not an insult but the Churches teachings for 2000 years.

I suspect Charismatic movement will die out just like all new novelities.

God Bless!
 
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