Charismatic Movement:Love it or hate it?

[misericordie]

sherilo:

I was baptized Catholic, but raised Protestant. And even though I have spent the last few months studying my way back home, and don’t claim to know a quarter of what I hope to learn about the faith, I feel that I must respond to this issue. Since the question was asked, a charismatic church, be it Catholic or Protestant, is not for me. I have seen what Protestant charistmatics do with the gift of tongues, the clapping, swaying, etc. It is as if the entire worship service is centered around speaking in tongues. I have seen people who respond to the “alter call” almost forced to speak in tongues to prove their receipt of the Holy Spirit. I also question the emotion of it all. While it is true that love is an emotion, it is also true that emotions and feelings are powerful, and can take on a life of their own. I am wary of any worship service where the emotional aspects are an integral part of the service. Where is the reverence? It just seems possible that a charismatic Mass could lead to a focus on self rather than God.
Lastly, I see a trend toward church hopping in the Catholic church that I though was only a Protestant thing. That is unsettling. However, I will continue my journey home with God’s guidance.

A soon to be flesh and blood Catholic,
Sherilo

I AGREE! Also, FEELINGS offten betray us humans. GOD IS NOT ABOUT FEELINGS=jumping up and down, clapping, dancing the tango in mass etc. Look at the life of those who experienced God directly: the MYSTICS such as St. John of the Cross. He did not depend upon his mystical experiences: actually he says one MUST be cautious about them. He also experienced the “Dark Night of the Soul.” NOT what is going to happen to many in certain movements when they DON’T feel God, when God hides from them(language of St. John of the Cross) and they cannot feel Him? Will they STOP believing in God? As was the case with a friend of mine who thought following God was all about ALWAYS FEELING happy, and when the storm came, he dispaired. "The passions must be subject to the will and the Intelect(St. Thomas Aquinas THE DOCTOR of the Church, and the ONLY THEOLOGIAN recomended by VATICAN II.

 

[misericordie]

Mysty101:

Where was the manner of celebrating the Mass documented in the Bible? Even the Tridentine Mass didn’t come about until much later. The original Eucharist was a real feast with all kinds of other food also.

SuZ

This is a VERY weak unresearched argument. To use this argument is like saying once a person is an adult they should go back to using diapers. Why is it some members of certain movements which have seeped into the Church, want to have the liturgy/Mass THEIR way??? Why so much disobedience to the RUBRICS and laws of the Church in order to satisfy the need to FEEL=emotional worship, which sometimes becomes a form of mass hyseria?

 

[misericordie]

SPOKENWORD:

Tru, You have to be walking in the spirit to understand it.Thats how the Holy Spirit works. The only falling im doing is falling in love with Jesus. Sometime to much theoligy and not enough intimacy.

So what you are saying is no need to think, just FEEL? This would be TOTALLY against all the Catholic tradition, especially the teachings of Aquinas, and ALL THE TEACHINGS OF POPE JOHN PAUL II. So no need to think, just feel?? .

 

[misericordie]

Corpus Cristi:

Just screw it, you are not going to conform anyone here to your way of thinking. You have your novus ordo mass, and we have our charismatic one. It’s settled. You don’t have to bash what you don’t like. Just leave it alone, and have nothing to do with it. There are lots of things that you say we are, that we aren’t, and there are a lot of misconceptions about the charismatic renewal that aren’t true, that your spewing. I’ve also read implications in posts, that the divine liturgy, is strictly novus ordo masses. Please, talk about blind . . .

Wow, I guess your demonstration of Charity here too is from the Spirit?

 

[misericordie]

tru_dvotion:

SuZ and what of it? We are not bound to follow “approval”; we are bound to follow Catholic Dogma, Canon Law, and official communiqués from the Holy See. The renewal has an office in the Vatican. So? There are many offices in the Vatican. People quote the Pope’s welcoming address to a group of pilgrims as if it was something we are bound to follow. Do not issue warnings, unless you have the information to back it up. We are NOT bound to follow a lay movement or an apparition, not even if these are approved by the Church. Please get your facts straight.

Many “catholic” charismatics I know don’t care about Canon Law, Dogmas, or Doctrine, neither do many know about those nor even WANT to know=just feel.

 

[Les_Richardson]

tru_dvotion:

No Word, you have not offended me. If there was something for me to forgive I would, but actually you are the first person who is willing to make a case from an opposing viewpoint in a friendly way. Although I disagree with your conclusion, you have my respect. Yes, I do believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I also believe these are operational today. They have been operational all along in different ways. But always the Spirit gifts and moves according to the needs of the Body and not on command or because people are seeking it. There are many immature souls who are active in the renewal, and all they seek are the gifts and the experiences along with them. There is pride too, they go about claiming they are gifted this way or that way, and poor things do not realize how repulsive that is. We recognize gifted people from their mercy and humility and compassion and not how well they can boast about their gifts. Besides, God’s greatest gift sometimes is no gift at all, certainly not for those seeking personal recognition. Even when all our intentions are pure and unselfish, we cannot really determine what gifts may build us up and what gifts may ultimately cause our downfall. We are even less aware what the Body needs, so it would be utterly pointless to seek particular gifts with our limited scope of understanding. We all have to walk in faith, but we cannot follow anyone blindly, Jesus warned us about that. That is why we have the Church, the Scriptures and Catholic Tradition, so we won’t have to follow in blindness and we can keep on the right path. God give us sight, he gave us intellect, and these will not fail us if we use them wisely. But to go after one’s heart like an ox on a string is foolishness, because the human heart is corrupt and while one minute it can be a temple of the Holy Spirit, it can be a refuge of the Devil in the next. Jesus used Peter to make a case for this, and yet Peter was with our Lord for three years when this happened. Who am I then and who are we all to think we can fair better than Peter, how can we be at all certain, we are always speaking and acting in accordance with the Holy Spirit? Yes, Mary teaches obedience and faithfulness to her little cohort, but she is also a teacher, and do not forget, as the spouse of the Holy Spirit, she is also the dispenser of wisdom.

Well said. I couldn’t have summed it up any better. God Bless.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Joey1976:

Suellen,

Your post is beautiful. Your post was right on the money. People need to open their minds and not be close minded. You are right when you recieve the gifts of the Holy Spirit you will be changed forever. People need to embrace this and be open to this. Research and read about the Charismatic Movement and read what Pope John Paul has to say about it. Most importantly pray about it!!! I was sceptical about it and questioned it. I was exposed to it through a Protestent and was very weary about it because i though it was very Protestant. But i prayed about it and next thing I know i was in Steubenville being Bapized with the Holy Spirit. I prayed and questioned it and God showed me as clear as day. It was amazing. So, if anyone doesn’t take our word for the Charismatic movement, then ask God he will show you.

This is just what seems to run counter to the more balanced posts by such as SPOKENWORD and others. “People *need *to embrace this.” To me that sounds like get with the program! Small wonder that others would want to push back when they hear that, knowing the depth and spiritual fulfillment of their own faith and relationship with Christ, *sans *charismatic renewal.

An interesting study is the history of various revivals in North America in the protestant sector. There are some commonalities. But one thing that sticks out in my mind, it has been a while, God chose to use the least attractive and charismatic(human charisma) persons to carry His message, and the revival normally happened after periods of intense prayer by those who had powerful faith. Further, the Holy Spirit, in baptizing those who heard the Word and repented, in most cases caused a deep and emotional conviction of sin, true contrition, if you will.

Not tongues, not interpretation, not prophecy, but just down on your knees before God Almighty humble contrition. “Lord have mercy on me a sinner!”

Personally, I say fine, enjoy the charismatic experience if you will. But when you’re finished, let us know, because there is some heavy lifting that needs to be done. Some serious prayer work. We have an enemy that needs to be fought over here. The world is turning pagan/gnostic/New Age around us. We need to engage the enemy. Put on our armour, mount up and meet the charge.

See you on the battlefield.

 

[PAX777]

My Charismatic Fruit I bear to this Forum is that we all take a Breath and read Matthew 7:1-29.

usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew7.htm

This reading has opened my heart to the Authority of Jesus teachings on, Judging, Gifts, searching, good & bad Fruit, a building a strong foundation on the Holy Catholic Church.

 

[Mysty101]

Les Richardson:

Personally, I say fine, enjoy the charismatic experience if you will. But when you’re finished, let us know, because there is some heavy lifting that needs to be done. Some serious prayer work. We have an enemy that needs to be fought over here. The world is turning pagan/gnostic/New Age around us. We need to engage the enemy. Put on our armour, mount up and meet the charge.

See you on the battlefield.

And Charismatic prayer would be against this??? How often do you praise God? Praise prayer (which by the way is very beneficial to the person prayying) is the most neglected form of prayer. I had gone to a conference in Presentation BVM Catholic Church in Philadelephia. Msgr Walsh spoke on the parable of the unjust judge–

Luke 18 4 “For a while he refused; but later he said to himself, ‘Though I have no fear of God and no respect for anyone, 5yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will grant her justice, so that she may not wear me out by continually coming.’ "b 6And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7And will not God grant justice to his chosen ones who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long in helping them? 8I tell you, he will quickly grant justice to them.”

Msgr Walsh spoke on this parable, but not from the aspect of the importance of persistence in prayer (of course he did say that persistence in prayer is very important and we were not to think that he was minimizing it), but he emphasized this portion of the passage:

7 “And will not God grant justice to his chosen ones who cry to him day and night?”

This scripture not only tells me of God’s love and willingness to help us, but also tells me that He ***wants us to call to Him day and night. *** We KNOW we would only want to hear from those we love.That we MUST cry to Him day and night. This is our goal, and we must strive toward it. And we can do it together if we pray in communion with others in a Parish or Prayer group. Msgr Walsh has established small prayer groups, one meeting each day, so there will be a prayer group praising every night. And therefore everyone involved in this endeavor will be praising every day, either with his own voice for himself and others, or through the voice of the others.

SuZ

 

[Mysty101]

misericordie:

Many “catholic” charismatics I know don’t care about Canon Law, Dogmas, or Doctrine, neither do many know about those nor even WANT to know=just feel.

Many traditional Catholics.I know don’t care about Canon Law, Dogmas, or Doctrine, neither do many know about those nor even WANT to know=just feel…

Many traditional & Charismatic Catholics** do** care about Canon Law, Dogmas, or Doctrine, many know about those and WANT to know
… what is your point?

SuZ

 

[Mysty101]

misericordie:

So what you are saying is no need to think, just FEEL? This would be TOTALLY against all the Catholic tradition, especially the teachings of Aquinas, and ALL THE TEACHINGS OF POPE JOHN PAUL II. So no need to think, just feel?? .

This is not a belief of CCR
SuZ

 

[Mysty101]

misericordie:

Why is it some members of certain movements which have seeped into the Church, want to have the liturgy/Mass THEIR way??? Why so much disobedience to the RUBRICS and laws of the Church in order to satisfy the need to FEEL=emotional worship, which sometimes becomes a form of mass hyseria?

Yes, many are Liturgically abusive, but many are not—there are also many abuses in non-Charismatic Masses
As I said the Charismatic movement is approved by the Vatican. Trust me, the Pope knows what goes on. Some allowances are made (as in cultural Masses), but some of the things you do not like are not even abuses.

from the GIRM
*

*The Entrance
*

1. The singing at this time is done either alternately by the choir and the people or in a similar way by the cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the dioceses of the United States of America there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Roman Missal or the Psalm from the Roman Gradual as set to music there or in another musical setting; (2) the seasonal antiphon and Psalm of the Simple Gradual; (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) a suitable liturgical song similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.55
   The same instruction is given for the Offertory song, and very similar for the Communion song. The #4 option is very vague and most Bishops leave blanket approval to their Pastors’ selections.*
   And although many of you may not like it, there is nothing which say music which includes clapping may not be used.

We did have a wonderful healing service after the Healing Mass Tuesday night. Many people rested in the Spirit—no hysterics just a peaceful submission to the power of the Holy Spirit. It was in Church with a priest present, and after the Mass was ended. This is when we pray for healing. There are three teams, and naturally more people go to the Priest’s team, but we also have many people come to us for prayer. We do pray in English, and also in tongues (no interpretation necessary, sorta like what humming would be to singing), and I feel it just come up a bit—between the intercessory prayer as we are praying over the person. I feel it is sincere prayer, and the resting in the Spirit helps the person be open to the Peace of the Spirit.

SuZ

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

Corpus Cristi:

I would like to know what you people think about the charismatic movement. Since I’ve converted, I’ve been going to a charismatic catholic church for mass and prayer groups (not the parish I belong to or “registered under” though). I was raised in a pentecostal denomination, but it didn’t really appeal to me at the time. I’ve now been really drawn to that form of worship. What do all of you think of it?

I’m a private pray-er and don’t like praying in public, apart from the Mass, this talking in tongues is not what I think the Apostles did after the death of Jesus, the Holy Spirit was in them and everybody understood in their own language.
Have you ever thought how it is that Mary can appear anywhere in the world and speak that language ?, well in my opinion it’s because she is full of the Holy Spirit, and the Bride of the Holy Spirit.
I heard a priest speaking in tongues at a Marian Movement prayer meeting, & I wanted to run for the hills, it may-be for some, but it’s not for me, if your comfortable with it, then fine, but I wasn’t.

 

[Paul_Stephens]

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Paul Stephens
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