Charismatic Movement:Love it or hate it?

[tru_dvotion]

Tru- Dvotions, * I guess you believe that all christians are at the same level in their walk with Jesus.I,m going to have to disagree with you.
*

Dear Word, I will certainly not disagree with you on that one, and this entire thread is a good example how true is what you are saying. But then… if those at the beginning of their spiritual journey can assume they have all the answers, and everybody must subscribe to it…(and to be generous, let’s not even mention the tantrums) and truly… the renewal encourages this type of conduct, how did someone said? "fight a good fight”, what do you think, is it a good thing or not? But this is purely a side issue, and I would much rather discuss some of the problems with the teachings in the renewal than the behavior of some of its followers.

 

[charly]

I don’t love it or hate it. As it’s place in the Mass, we should follow the rubics. I don’t hold up my hands when praying at Mass or hold hands during the "Our Father prayer. It’s simply not in the rubics. I became familar with the Charismatic Movement back in 1967, by going to the meeting with my mother at the Newman Center at the college I attended. I thought the music was great and the prayers uplifting and attended those meeting every Wednesday for three years. (My mother didn’t drive at night, so I was the only way she could attend.) The Charismatic Movement has its place in The Catholic Church but not within the Mass.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Mysty101:

I do not consider this a respectful remark. This, to me, is ridicule of the way I sometimes pray. I do not think you would like this attitude toward the way you pray. I am not judging you—but your remark is offensive to me.

SuZ

Dear SuZ,

I apologize for offending you. But neither our Lord nor our Lady prayed in tongues, and the word “babble” is often used by charismatics when they teach others to pray in tongues. So unless you can rephrase this statement for me without altering its meaning, it will stand. But as I said, I will rephrase it if you have a suggestion how to make this statement more agreeable to you.

 

[Mysty101]

tru_dvotion:

You are correct gnome! And I would like to add that silence is also a wellspring of joy and happiness!

Contempletive Prayer is certainly a wonderful form of prayer as is Charismatic prayer, and Memorized Prayer. And it is said that singing is praying 2x. (Fr Tom Di Lorenzo of radio in Boston also said our feet should never be still when we pray—but that is another topic) Surely God is pleased with all forms of prayer–but remember “Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name…” I somehow think this would be indicating that the 2 or 3 are praying aloud.

SuZ

 

[Psalm45_9]

Once again, sung with voices and eyes raised to God:

“Come, let us worship and bow down before Christ.”

Response: “O Son of God, risen from the dead, save us who sing to You. Alleluia.”

“Singing shouting, crying out and saying the triumphal Hymn:”

Response: “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of hosts. Heaven and earth are full of Your glory, hosanna in the highest. Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord, hosanna in the highest.”

“Take, eat, THIS IS MY BODY, which is broken for you for the remission of sins.”

Response: “Amen.”

“Drink of this all, THIS IS MY BLOOD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins.”

Response: “Amen.”

“Thine own of Thine own, we offer You, in behalf of all, and for all.”

Response: “We praise You, we bless You, we thank You, O Lord, and we pray to You, our God.”

“Praise the Lord from the heavens, Praise Him in the highest. Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!”

“Save Your people, O God, and bless Your inheritance.”

Response: “We have seen the true light, we have received the heavenly Spirit, we have found the true faith, and we adore the undivided Trinity as it has saved us.”

“May our mouths be filled with Your praise, O Lord, so that we may sing Your glory, for You have deemed us worthy to partake of Your holy, divine, immortal and life-giving mysteries. Keep us in Your holiness, so that all day long we may learn Your righteousness. Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!”

(Extraordinarily Charismatic, and ancient too)

I love the Divine Liturgy!

 

[gnome]

tru_dvotion:

Though charismatics quote St Paul, they ignore all his rules. Instead of two praying, they have sometimes hundreds praying in tongues at a time. The slaying in the spirit is a pure Protestant invention, and is neither Scriptural, nor Catholic. My posts on examining falling has been ridiculed, but I tell you, reasoning IS part of discernment! We simply cannot find one single Bible passage for the slaying in the spirit! Also, they lay hands on one another wily-nily.

I’d like to discern too… can someone please point out where in the
Scripture that illustrates “slaying in the spirit” and the “lay hand on
one another”? Thanks.

 

[Psalm45_9]

gnome:

I’d like to discern too… can someone please point out where in the
Scripture that illustrates “slaying in the spirit” and the “lay hand on
one another”? Thanks.

Confirmation, that’s as close as you’ll get. That’s the only time laying of hands on laymen is mentioned in the Bible. Acts 19:6 mentions this along with the gift of tongues. However, these were authentic tongues, because someone could understand their predictions. However, we can only be confirmed once. I was at the 2004 Easter Vigil.

 

[Mysty101]

Prayer language? Ha, when did our Lady or our Lord babble to the Father in tongues

Well you could start by leaving out the “?” and the Ha. Maybe Just ask “When did Our Lady & Lord pray to the Father in tongues?”

And I could only answer that I have no way of knowing how they prayed to the Father in all instances–I’m sure their every prayer is not documented. Just as there is no way of knowing that they did pray in tongues, there is no way of knowing they did not.

Romans 8:26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

SuZ

 

[tru_dvotion]

I agree with Psalm45:9

Nobody will be able to explain it to you gnome, where these came from. Not from the Bible and not from Catholic Tradition. These are all novel additions and we know those are forbidden. Only existing revelation can be expanded further, but nothing new is supposed to be added onto existing revelation. This is Catholic Dogma. Just as I did not get a straight answer, you will not get one either. No answer exists. All that charismatics can offer is subjective rhetoric based on personal experiences and feelings.

 

[Mysty101]

PS The title of this thread is “Charismatic Movement”

I don’t think anyone involved in the Charismatic movement would deny snyone elses connection to the Holy Spirit----it is just different…not better or worse, just different.

SuZ

 

[Mysty101]

tru_dvotion:

I agree with Psalm45:9

Nobody will be able to explain it to you gnome, where these came from. Not from the Bible and not from Catholic Tradition. These are all novel additions and we know those are forbidden. Only existing revelation can be expanded further, but nothing new is supposed to be added onto existing revelation. This is Catholic Dogma. Just as I did not get a straight answer, you will not get one either. No answer exists. All that charismatics can offer is subjective rhetoric based on personal experiences and feelings.

Please be careful. The Charismatic movement is approved by the Vatican.

SuZ

 

[tru_dvotion]

Mysty101:

Well you could start by leaving out the “?” and the Ha. Maybe Just ask “When did Our Lady & Lord pray to the Father in tongues?”

And I could only answer that I have no way of knowing how they prayed to the Father in all instances–I’m sure their every prayer is not documented. Just as there is no way of knowing that they did pray in tongues, there is no way of knowing they did not.

SuZ

Consider it left out and please forgive my sarcastic addition. I am sorry.

You are correct that not everything was written down. But do you not think if the charismatic movement had any credence, there would have been something in the Bible about it? I mean a whole movement that desires to overtake the entire Church and to “renew it”, and there is nothing about its central teachings and practices in the Bible? Do you not find that odd?

 

[Mysty101]

tru_dvotion:

Consider it left out and please forgive my sarcastic addition. I am sorry.

I mean a whole movement that desires to overtake the entire Church and to “renew it”, and there is nothing about its central teachings and practices in the Bible? Do you not find that odd?

Thanks for the apology and more importantly acknowledging my point.

Why do you say that? I know many authentic Catholic Charismatics and while they would love to see everyone burning brightly with the fire of the Spirit, they do not force their ideas on anyone. Our Charismatic Mass is the most crowded, but it is only one Mass, there are 7 other Masses. They are very enthusiastic, and many interpret this as attempting to control. I will provide more links when I have more time.

SuZ

 

[gnome]

Mysty101:

Contempletive Prayer is certainly a wonderful form of prayer as is Charismatic prayer, and Memorized Prayer. And it is said that singing is praying 2x. (Fr Tom Di Lorenzo of radio in Boston also said our feet should never be still when we pray—but that is another topic) Surely God is pleased with all forms of prayer–but remember “Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name…” I somehow think this would be indicating that the 2 or 3 are praying aloud.
SuZ

Mother Teresa only said “He cannot be found in noise and restlessness”. Singing is not noise and restlessness…a choir sing songs of praise to support the congregation in praying. So it’s important for the choir to choose songs with meaningful lyrics that fit the Readings of the Mass.

When I gather to pray the Hail Mary Full of Grace…, and Our Father, I understand the prayers and I know it’s in the Scripture and I know the people I pray with have same understanding.
But if the person next to me pray with something he/she doesnot even understand, and I don’t understand, then my conscience says I should not gather since I am not able to discern whether he/she is praising or cursing. (If I say something wrong, please forgive. It’s what I believe based on little experience)

 

[Mysty101]

tru_dvotion:

Dear Word, I will certainly not disagree with you on that one, and this entire thread is a good example how true is what you are saying. But then… if those at the beginning of their spiritual journey can assume they have all the answers, and everybody must subscribe to it

…(and to be generous, let’s not even mention the tantrums) and truly… the renewal encourages this type of conduct, how did someone said? "fight a good fight”, what do you think, is it a good thing or not? But this is purely a side issue, and I would much rather discuss some of the problems with the teachings in the renewal than the behavior of some of its followers.
I missed this post. Just exactly what are you saying? Where did you encounter these people? They certainly don’t sound like authentic Catholic Charismatics to me. If you wish to explore the Charismatic movement, please stick with authentic Catholic groups, if you are Catholic. Nothing against Protestant groups, but if I were looking for traditional worship, I would go to a Catholic Parish, so I would also feel the same about Charismatic worship.

SuZ

 

[tru_dvotion]

Mysty, thank you for the first part.

As for your question, have you red some of the previous posts? Please read them. But I am rather surprised you have not observed the move in your parish. Why would it be called a movement if it was not meant to change or to alter what IS? A movement is not simply a devotion, a way of life or a form of prayer. Even the definition of the word suggests otherwise. But I am very much interested what you think about the rest of my post, the parts you did not respond to.

 

[Mysty101]

tru_dvotion:

Consider it left out and please forgive my sarcastic addition. I am sorry.

You are correct that not everything was written down. But do you not think if the charismatic movement had any credence, there would have been something in the Bible about it? I mean a whole movement that desires to overtake the entire Church and to “renew it”, and there is nothing about its central teachings and practices in the Bible? Do you not find that odd?

Where was the manner of celebrating the Mass documented in the Bible? Even the Tridentine Mass didn’t come about until much later. The original Eucharist was a real feast with all kinds of other food also.

SuZ

 

[tru_dvotion]

Mysty101:

I missed this post. Just exactly what are you saying? SuZ

Sorry, I called just called you Mysty,

Suz, just take a look at posts #78 and #128 on this thread. In part, I was referring to those when I was responding to Word.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Mysty101:

Where was the manner of celebrating the Mass documented in the Bible? Even the Tridentine Mass didn’t come about until much later. The original Eucharist was a real feast with all kinds of other food also.

SuZ

Ah SuZ, that would take a lot of references! Why, first of all at the Last Supper for starters. And in John when Jesus first talks about the Eucharist. All the rest of the mass, Tridentine or Novus Ordo are all based on the Scriptures.

 

[gnome]

Psalm45:9:

Confirmation, that’s as close as you’ll get. That’s the only time laying of hands on laymen is mentioned in the Bible. Acts 19:6 mentions this along with the gift of tongues. However, these were authentic tongues, because someone could understand their predictions. However, we can only be confirmed once. I was at the 2004 Easter Vigil.

Yes. And Confirmation is done only by the Bishop, or in exceptional cases by a Priest appointed by the Bishop.