Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[po18guy]

There’s a wonderful story about a local priest in the diocese where my school is. This priest was active during the liturgical reforms and obediently accepted the changes as they came. Eventually however, he began to notice that the general attitudes of his flock were changing and that the new rite was not fostering the kind of spiritual growth that he once had at his parish. He came into contact with another priest who then began to convince him as to why the new rite was flawed. He then returned to the old mass. Parisohners from all over the diocese came to his parish because of their love of the old rite. Several months later, the Canadian congress of bishops banned the old mass, and this priest was told he would have to stop. He refused. He made his case to the bishop and pointed out exactly what our Holy Father had just pointed out in the MP, that the Church cannot turn around and say what was once holy is now no longer holy. He was forced to celebrate mass secretly, and attended to traditionalist across the nation.

The point? This priest could not blindly bow down to authority. Sometimes it is right and proper to fight, and for fighting for the liturgy of the last two thousand years, he was proven right in the end. Sometimes authority can be wrong, misguided, and in such cases we must take extra precautions not to be fooled, else we become schismatics. This priest was able to resist the SSPX and the violent reforms of his bishop, may God bless him for it!

There is an older story of a similar priest who fought the abusive authority of the church. Many believed that the manner in which he celebrated was the best, far superior to that which the inflexible church demanded. This priest became so popular that his following eventually moved from underground to mainstream. He was so loved that his church now has 33,000 denominations. His name? Martin Luther.

 

[latinmass]

The Holy Spirit was still here. If with God, a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day, he got here in 2 days. Jesus was in the tomb for 3. I think he got here pretty fast seeing all that had to be done. Latinmass, don’t put God in a box. He does not fit.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

“Don’t put God in a box” is a cliche used by the devil to add things to Church teaching that God does not want added to Church teaching.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

"Don’t put God in a box" is a cliche used by the devil to add things to Church teaching that God does not want added to Church teaching.

Are my horns growing yet?
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[jeaniemarie]

Are covenant communities still part of the CCR?

 

[Margarite]

WOW! I took a break for a weekend and there has been so much to catch up on.
I read most of this, but after reading so much I could not continue without stepping in.

First off, obedience is THE MOST important “virtue.”
As my priest said on Easter, “When a monk makes the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, poverty is easy, because you have everything provided for you, you don’t need to worry; chastity, well, even a married man needs to practice chastity; but obedience is the hardest, it is so hard to be humble and obey.”

Now this doesn’t mean that if the monks serve two different types of meat and the abbot says “I prefer chicken” that does not mean that all the monks have to eat chicken, because he only prefers chicken, he is not saying that everyone has to eat it. But if he says Brother eat chicken, well then the brother should eat it.

So it is with the popes, I don’t care how many there have been, if they just say “I prefer Chicken (or the Charismatic Movement)” well, I can disagree, it is only when the pope says “You must eat chicken” that I must agree.

I am not only talking about obedience in regards to the Charismatic movement, but I am talking about it because some people on this thread seem to agree with groups and priests who have refused to obey much like the Devil. Our priest was just talking about that this Sunday, he said that the Devil is smart, he always makes the bad path look good. Luther thought he was doing the right thing, all his followers thought that they were doing the right thing (I hope), but they were WRONG and so are any priests and people who separate themselves from the one true Church especially through pride and disobedience.

I may prefer the TLM because I find it to be more reverent and beautiful, and I think it is most pleasing to God, but it is not pleasing to God that we leave the Church, that we leave the Body of Christ.
Our Lord appeared to St. Margaret Mary and asked her to do certain things on Fridays, well, some of her mother superiors said that she could not do this and Christ told St. Margaret Mary that it was of the upmost importance that she obey her superior first and get her superiors permission to continue the devotion He had asked of her. She showed an equal amount of love for Our Lord by obey her superior, as she did by doing the devotion.
(I hope I said that right)
The same goes for the Charismatic Movement. I don’t know about these newcomers to the thread, but I know that Dustin’sDad, and IrishSaints and I want to know more on paper.

I must say that you Charismatic people are not doing a good job of selling your product (so to speak). I have asked repeatedly what the rules are, tell me something specific. I am glad that you all “feel good,” but I want to know more about the cause. I want you to prove philosophically that these “gifts” that you experience are from the Holy Ghost.
That is one of the most wonderful parts of the Church is that everything can be proved philosophically. It is very logical, but the Charismatic movement does not fit into this.

Now don’t say that because I don’t love the Church and am not a faithful member because I don’t agree with the popes taste, that has nothing to do with my faithfulness. I want a response without any personal jibes or heckling.

Thank you and sorry I rambled on for so long.

 

[DebChris]

I guess what i am asking is is it almost like its own “rite” so to speak. if a parish has a group, does the parish priest say Masses or does the movement have its own priests. I guess i really dont kmow how to word my question.

Some parish priests become involved, some do not. It depends on how they are led and how many other obligations they have.
,
I wouldn’t say it has its own “rite”,…just that they allow for the manifestation of the gift of prophecy, in an orderly fashion, after some quiet time after the reception of the Eucharist.

It is common for the parish priest to allow another priest to say the Charismatic Mass. As Dorothy states most pastors are so busy, they just don’t have time to add another Mass. Her discription of the Mass is pretty accurate.A Charismatic Mass follows the same Latin rite found in most parishes. The prayer group may invite a particular priest to celebrate the Mass. This invitation can only be given with the parish priest’s consent and knowledge…
The last time I attended a charismatic Mass, the parish priest concelebrated with the invited priest. Before Mass, he was prayed over. It was a healing Mass and when this newly initiated (I don’t have a better word) priest prayed over people the power of the Holy Spirit working through him was evident. Many of those he prayed over were slain in the Spirit. .
In January his parish had a Life vigil rosary. He led the decades said in Spanish and Latin.
As I have mentioned in several previous posts, you will not always know who is or is not charismatic. The last time I attended a FIRE rally, the Charismatic Mass was concelebrated by two bishops. Many priests were available throughout the day for the Sacrament of Reconciliation. FIRE stands for Faith, Intercessory Prayer, Repentence, and Evangelization. Go, if you ever have the opportunity.
I would not say that the movement has its own priests, per se. Each priest has received the Sacrament of Holy Orders either before or after becoming charismatic. He is subject to the same discipline and obedience as any other Catholic priest. He can be a member of a paticular order (Franciscan, Benedictine, Dominican, Jesuit…) or he can be a diocesan priest. The working of the Holy Spirit has not boundaries.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Where was the Holy Ghost for all those hundreds and hundreds of years between the establishment of the Church and the 1960’s? Please see post #32 and #44. He was always here, but in the 1960’s some felt it necessary to create what is not necesarry out of emotion and a need to see something.

This need for emotion, to “feel” leads to a lot of novelties like holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer and rock/pop during the Liturgy. I agree with your comments here and the next post.

 

[DebChris]

Magarite, the rules of charismatic Catholics are the same rules that every other Catholic is obiligated to follow. It does not feel like an obligation any more than a person who loves another feels “obligated” to cook, clean, or do whatever else needs to be done for the person he/she loves. The motivation is different.
Being charismatic does not mean my faith is stronger than that of a person who is not charismatic. Only the Lord can read a person’s heart. The charismata are gifts. They do not make me superior to anybody else. In fact, any sense of superiority is warned against by the ICCS.
You used the example of the abbot of a monastery.Every monk must be obedient to the abbot. At the same time the abbot is called to be obedient to every monk . Obedience is this sense means to listen. The abbot needs to listen to the members of his flock, of his monastery. He knows that the monastery does not really belong to him but to Christ.
I would disagree wholeheartedly that faith can be proved philosophically. What I would ask you to do, however, is to scroll back to Post #391. On that post you will find the numbers of 3 other posts that will lead you to different references including scripture, the catechism, and the ICCS Vatican site.
I may not be back on for awhile. As you state, obedience means attending to other duties.

 

[DustinsDad]

The Holy Spirit was still here. If with God, a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day, he got here in 2 days. Jesus was in the tomb for 3. I think he got here pretty fast seeing all that had to be done. Latinmass, don’t put God in a box. He does not fit.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

With all due respect Deacon, I think latinmass’ question shouldn’t be brushed aside so easily. It’s a legitimate question.

I don’t think he was in any way, shape or form trying to “put God in a box.”

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad.

(And to eveyone else here - sorry for not posting in this thread for a while - I’m focussing on some other, eh, issues of late. Just passing through for now - my previous posts still stand an dI feel like alot of this is just being “rehashed”. In any case, Peace to you all…especially you Deb - I haven’t forgot about you!)

 

[po18guy]

“Don’t put God in a box” is a cliche used by the devil to add things to Church teaching that God does not want added to Church teaching.

Then please explain why Christ gave the Apostles the power to bind and loose. Since He knows past, present and future, and guaranteed that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church, why did he still give that power? Christ laid out the form of celebrating the Eucharist, and left the rest up to the Apostles. Any wonder that it has changed over the centuries? The “Universal” church has to cover every society, every culture and every language in every age until the end of time! Quite frankly, the Apostles would likely be shocked at the pre-V2 masses that were celebrated, so different in form were they from the early meetings on the Lord’s day! NOTICE: different in form, not substance. The Substance, the Eucharist, is unchanging and cannot change.

I cannot understand why there is so much fear (yes, fear) of the charismatic movement! Often, scripture says “Then, filled with the Holy Spirit, they…” The apostles then went forth and did great things to the glory of God. This is something to fear? Look around you at the sleeping parishioners, the struggling faith, the apparent lack of belief in the Real Presence during the mass. If the Holy Spirit could be used to wake them up, that is good, not evil!

Is the fear, disdain, dislike, (whatever) of the charismatic movement because the celebrations appear similar to a Pentecostal church? Remember that the Pentecostal churches are derived from the Catholic! We have everything the Pentecostal church does, and more. We have more Sacraments, more devotions, more history, more of everything. Just because one segment of Catholic celebration doesn’t contain everything about Catholicism, please don’t fear it, or worse, condemn it!

The Holy Spirit is the Blessed third Person, even if He is oftentimes the forgotten Third Person. It is through Him that all good is accomplished on earth. He was sent by Christ to be our “helper”. How can He help if you do not call upon Him?

May the peace of our Risen Lord Jesus Christ be with all.

 

[DebChris]

Are covenant communities still part of the CCR?

catholicfraternity.net/

There are covenant communities that are charismatic.
I found this link which you might find intereating. Once you go to the link, you will find connections to other links as well when you click links.

The strengthening of ties between the Fraternity and the Holy See gives additional clarity to the Catholic identity of the Fraternity

.

 

[palmas85]

Then please explain why Christ gave the Apostles the power to bind and loose. Since He knows past, present and future, and guaranteed that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church, why did he still give that power? Christ laid out the form of celebrating the Eucharist, and left the rest up to the Apostles. Any wonder that it has changed over the centuries? The “Universal” church has to cover every society, every culture and every language in every age until the end of time! Quite frankly, the Apostles would likely be shocked at the pre-V2 masses that were celebrated, so different in form were they from the early meetings on the Lord’s day! NOTICE: different in form, not substance. The Substance, the Eucharist, is unchanging and cannot change.

I cannot understand why there is so much fear (yes, fear) of the charismatic movement! Often, scripture says “Then, filled with the Holy Spirit, they…” The apostles then went forth and did great things to the glory of God. This is something to fear? Look around you at the sleeping parishioners, the struggling faith, the apparent lack of belief in the Real Presence during the mass. If the Holy Spirit could be used to wake them up, that is good, not evil!

Is the fear, disdain, dislike, (whatever) of the charismatic movement because the celebrations appear similar to a Pentecostal church? Remember that the Pentecostal churches are derived from the Catholic! We have everything the Pentecostal church does, and more. We have more Sacraments, more devotions, more history, more of everything. Just because one segment of Catholic celebration doesn’t contain everything about Catholicism, please don’t fear it, or worse, condemn it!

The Holy Spirit is the Blessed third Person, even if He is oftentimes the forgotten Third Person. It is through Him that all good is accomplished on earth. He was sent by Christ to be our “helper”. How can He help if you do not call upon Him?

May the peace of our Risen Lord Jesus Christ be with all.

I was wondering when one of you guys would bring this often forgotten into the equation. I wonder if the Holy Spirit feels neglected and forgotten

In an elemental sense, yes, the Pentecostal communities have some basic link to Catholicism. the same link that all the other protestants have. Nothing more.

There is no fear of the Holy Spirit and his workings. Only of men claiming that they can control that power. Yes, many claim to be able to turn it on and off at will:thumbsup: Montanus did it and countless other hucksters throughout the ages did as well Pretty cool huh, mere men can control the workings of God. Private prayer languages, private revelations on demand, healings, healings and more healings on demand every week, just show up, its bound to happen. And if it doesn’t its your fault, you didn’t try hard enough.

I guess the thousands that went to Lourdes and didn’t get healed should have saved their cash and just gone down to the local CCR revival. I guess Catholic Charismatic prayer cloths and healings over the radio are next. Thats the way the protestants went. They made a lot of money at it by the way. I hope the Charismatics don’t miss the boat on this one:thumbsup: .

Yes, we can channel the power of God, oops, sorry, the often forgotten and neglected Holy Spirit, through our hands. And if someone in the audience doesn’t feel it, then they are not trying hard enough or they don’t believe.

And if you are going to sit there and tell me there are not those in the movement who claim to be able to manipulate the Holy Spirit to suit their purposes, however good those purposes may seem to be, and act just as I have described, then you are in serious denial.

They are the ones that we are afraid of.

 

[DebChris]

There is no question that there are charllatans who claim to do God’s work while lining their pockets.
True submission to the Holy Spirit, on the other hand, leads to quicker conviction of sin even as the overwhelming and embracing love of God is experienced. Like Isaiah and Peter, the initial reaction is acknowledgement of our sinfulness. We know from Scripture how powerfully God worked through those men. We know from the history of the Church how powerfully God worked through a little man from Assisi and others who have been recognized by the Church as saints.
I am well aware of those who believe “once saved, always saved.” I have encountered Job’s comforters who would tell me a lack of faith is the reason I have cluster migraines. God does heal and he could remove this affliction instantaneously if He so chose. I know also the words of St. Paul, “through weakness Power reaches perfection” and the words from the OT that “the physician too prays to the Lord that his diagnosis may be correct and the person be healed.”
There is nothing to fear from charletons. “He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world.” “It is not one who cries 'Lord, Lord 'who will enter Heaven, but rather he who does the will of the Father.”

 

[Brian777]

There is an older story of a similar priest who fought the abusive authority of the church. Many believed that the manner in which he celebrated was the best, far superior to that which the inflexible church demanded. This priest became so popular that his following eventually moved from underground to mainstream. He was so loved that his church now has 33,000 denominations. His name? Martin Luther.

Yes but Marty was a heretic! This priest seems simply to want to say the Traditional. There is no heresy in that

 

[Margarite]

Yes but Marty was a heretic! This priest seems simply to want to say the Traditional. There is no heresy in that

The priest put his own ideas above the orders of his superiors. When he became a priest he swore to be obedient. Well, he broke his oath.

Again I refer to St. Margaret Mary, Christ himself asked her to do a particular devotion, but if her superior told her not to, then he told her that obedience to her superior was the most important thing.
Pride and lack of humility was what destroyed the devil.
GTG

 

[Michael96]

Just come across this thread.

I don’t have experience of the charismatic movement myself but my daughter went to a Catholic Charismatic festival last year and came back really inspired; it did her faith the world of good. I may go this year if I can get the time off work.

 

[po18guy]

I was wondering when one of you guys would bring this often forgotten into the equation. I wonder if the Holy Spirit feels neglected and forgotten

In an elemental sense, yes, the Pentecostal communities have some basic link to Catholicism. the same link that all the other protestants have. Nothing more.

There is no fear of the Holy Spirit and his workings. Only of men claiming that they can control that power. Yes, many claim to be able to turn it on and off at will:thumbsup: Montanus did it and countless other hucksters throughout the ages did as well Pretty cool huh, mere men can control the workings of God. Private prayer languages, private revelations on demand, healings, healings and more healings on demand every week, just show up, its bound to happen. And if it doesn’t its your fault, you didn’t try hard enough.

I guess the thousands that went to Lourdes and didn’t get healed should have saved their cash and just gone down to the local CCR revival. I guess Catholic Charismatic prayer cloths and healings over the radio are next. Thats the way the protestants went. They made a lot of money at it by the way. I hope the Charismatics don’t miss the boat on this one:thumbsup: .

Yes, we can channel the power of God, oops, sorry, the often forgotten and neglected Holy Spirit, through our hands. And if someone in the audience doesn’t feel it, then they are not trying hard enough or they don’t believe.

And if you are going to sit there and tell me there are not those in the movement who claim to be able to manipulate the Holy Spirit to suit their purposes, however good those purposes may seem to be, and act just as I have described, then you are in serious denial.

They are the ones that we are afraid of.

Spirits must be tested. Some in the charismatic renewal, as in all groups, are lead astray. That must be discerned and avoided at all costs. The Holy Spirit guides us, not the opposite. The opposite comes from the evil one.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Then please explain why Christ gave the Apostles the power to bind and loose. Since He knows past, present and future, and guaranteed that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church, why did he still give that power? Christ laid out the form of celebrating the Eucharist, and left the rest up to the Apostles. Any wonder that it has changed over the centuries? The “Universal” church has to cover every society, every culture and every language in every age until the end of time! Quite frankly, the Apostles would likely be shocked at the pre-V2 masses that were celebrated, so different in form were they from the early meetings on the Lord’s day! NOTICE: different in form, not substance. The Substance, the Eucharist, is unchanging and cannot change.

I cannot understand why there is so much fear (yes, fear) of the charismatic movement! Often, scripture says “Then, filled with the Holy Spirit, they…” The apostles then went forth and did great things to the glory of God. This is something to fear? Look around you at the sleeping parishioners, the struggling faith, the apparent lack of belief in the Real Presence during the mass. If the Holy Spirit could be used to wake them up, that is good, not evil!

Is the fear, disdain, dislike, (whatever) of the charismatic movement because the celebrations appear similar to a Pentecostal church? Remember that the Pentecostal churches are derived from the Catholic! We have everything the Pentecostal church does, and more. We have more Sacraments, more devotions, more history, more of everything. Just because one segment of Catholic celebration doesn’t contain everything about Catholicism, please don’t fear it, or worse, condemn it!

The Holy Spirit is the Blessed third Person, even if He is oftentimes the forgotten Third Person. It is through Him that all good is accomplished on earth. He was sent by Christ to be our “helper”. How can He help if you do not call upon Him?

May the peace of our Risen Lord Jesus Christ be with all.

Excellent response — How does the song go, ***“Come Holy Spirit, Come - light my fire” *** It is so awesome.
Prayers &^ Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Just come across this thread.

I don’t have experience of the charismatic movement myself but my daughter went to a Catholic Charismatic festival last year and came back really inspired; it did her faith the world of good. I may go this year if I can get the time off work.

Michael GO!! You will never regret it.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[po18guy]

Yes but Marty was a heretic! This priest seems simply to want to say the Traditional. There is no heresy in that

True, but disobedience began it all. Since the two forms of masses are equal in grace, how about remaining obedient, praying for and patiently teaching your superiors?

We forget the first step to follow Christ: “Deny yourself”
We often forget the second step as well, lacking patience.

Christ’s peace.