Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[Dorothy]

ha, anything is possible, but I would love to met a traditionalist who can endure any kind of charismatic event.

If the reason they cannot endure it is because they have a deep and consistent prayer life, then that is very good.

 

[Freshman88]

If the reason they cannot endure it is because they have a deep and consistent prayer life, then that is very good.

I don’t mean to twist your words - but are you saying that a deep prayer life leads to a distaste for the charismatic movement? Certainly that’s what your words seem to imply … I suspect a mistype.

 

[Dorothy]

I don’t mean to twist your words - but are you saying that a deep prayer life leads to a distaste for the charismatic movement? Certainly that’s what your words seem to imply … I suspect a mistype.

What I am saying is that if a person has a deep contemplative prayer life then charismatic style prayer groups can be a distraction.

On the plus side, I have seen charismatic prayer groups aid in “jump starting” the faith life of many. Then, after a few years or so they leave the prayer group and become active participants in parish life.

 

[Hrvoje]

Also, the idea that the primitive mass is a more superior form, is a notion not supported by traditionalists, for the very reason that it denies organic growth and tradition. On the contrary, support for a return to a more primitive mass seems to be quite popular in liberal circles.

I didn’t say that the primitive mass is superior. How can one mass be superior to another?
I said that if one rejects the changes to the Pauline rite, then one should, in the interests of conserving tradition, reject also the Greek rite.

If you believe that the Latin rite is an organic development of the primitive, Greek or any other ancient vernacular rite, why do you not believe that the Pauline rite is such a development?
Not enough time for real development? The fact that it happened rather rapidly and not trough several centuries? Or do you believe that it wasn’t of greater spiritual benefit to the faithful?
I really want to know, as I’m genuinely curious about your take on this.

 

[DebChris]

Is it possible to be a charismatic obedient traditionalist Catholic?

Absolutely. What is important is that you are following Christ.
Even in traditional parishes, there are groups that meet together for worship from novenas to the rosary. Many charismatics participate in these prayer groups as well as the intercessory groups for which the Charismatic Renewal is known.
You may in fact be surprised to discover who the charismatics in your parish are if you do attend a charismatic prayer group. They are not all loud and rambunctious. Yes, you can expect to find songs of worship as charismatics gather. We come to praise the Lord. We also come to listen to any word of encouragement that He may have for us. In order to listen, it is important that we come to a point of stillness, a point where all is quiet and the sense that God is in our presence can be palpably felt as He speaks to each heart. While most words of prophecy spoken are words of encouragement, at times there are words of admonishment or direction. We may be called to repentence, to greater use of the Sacraments, especially the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
Once, after driving the 50 miles to my weekly meeting in WI, it was clear that obedience to God, as spoken through the prophecy, meant I needed to leave immediately and attend to an issue in my own life. “If when you come to the altar remember that your brother has a grievance against you, go, be reconciled, and then return to offer your gift at the altar.”
To avoid confusion, prophecy is not a prediction of the future. It is the message of God spoken through a human instrument. It is always subject to discernment. Is it in agreement with Scripture, with Tradition, with the circumstances of my life?
It was a prophecy spoken within this prayer group that confirmed that God was asking me to give up my career for the sake of my family. We are called to obedience regardless of results.

 

[Freshman88]

I didn’t say that the primitive mass is superior.

I didn’t say that you thought so either, I was just merely pointing out why traditionalist don’t support such an idea.

How can one mass be superior to another?

It’s faithfulness to Catholic theology, its ability to create a proper atmosphere, and its faithfulness to liturgical tradition.

I said that if one rejects the changes to the Pauline rite, then one should, in the interests of conserving tradition, reject also the Greek rite.

My understanding of the early liturgical rite isn’t perfect, and I’ve only touched upon on works which deal with broader liturgical themes. My understanding however, is that the mass of the Apostolic age mirrored Jewish worship and would have mostly been in Hebrew. It was my understanding that Greek, Latin or whatever, replaced Hebrew as a liturgical language over time. These languages were then perserved so as not to mess around with particular phrasing of the liturgy. To this day the Church still believes this, and the language of the Pauline rite is still officially Latin.

If you believe that the Latin rite is an organic development of the primitive, Greek or any other ancient vernacular rite, why do you not believe that the Pauline rite is such a development?
Not enough time for real development? The fact that it happened rather rapidly and not trough several centuries? Or do you believe that it wasn’t of greater spiritual benefit to the faithful?
I really want to know, as I’m genuinely curious about your take on this.

All of the above and more.

My main concern is with organic development. The liturgy is given to each generation, and each generation has a responsibility to pass down the liturgy to the next generation. Sometimes a prayer is added, a chant introduced, an action added, but overall growth is slow. This is out of respect for each and every bishop and saint who in their wisdom and out of authority added their own little mark to the mass. To take out a part of the mass, is to loose a part of our heritage. Every single event in the liturgy has a meaning and a purpose and so everytime we replace or take out such an action, we are also taking out another sign, another wise teaching or pious act. Also, by abrutbtly and violently changing the mass you are in way disrespecting those generations who played by the rules - is the generation who decides to abruptly change the liturgy more important or more wise then their previous generations?

Now in the past the Magesterium was respectful of this. No generation dared to rip apart the liturgy of their forefathers so that it could better suit the Church of their day. No, they were wiser then this, they understood that there was a wealth of knowledge and piety held within the liturgy. Indeed they saw the liturgy for what was, a deposit of faith.

Yet in 1970, a generation felt that it was facing problems more severe then the Church had already faced and so they discarded these traditions of the mass. Indeed they treated the liturgy as if it were some kind of tool to evangelize. Yet we are not meant to shape the mass, the mass is meant to shape us.

Those who challenge traditionalist usually bring up two points. The new mass is licit and the new mass does a better job at evangelizing. The first point is true, I believe the magisterium has the authority it has.The second point is also right, perhaps for American evangelists, but ask an Orthodox what he thinks of the new mass.Regardless, both these points seem to come from an improper understanding of the liturgy. The liturgy for them is a product of the Church, they do not see the liturgy as shaping the Church but rather the Church as shaping the liturgy. This is at the heart of the problem, a misunderstanding of what liturgy is and what its importance is.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Is it possible to be a charismatic obedient traditionalist Catholic?

Hi Jerry-Jet,

I think that is a beautiful question. I say yes you can.

This article gives the answer in a boader scope:

theuniversityconcourse.com/V,3,11-10-1999/Brown.htm

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

What I am saying is that if a person has a deep contemplative prayer life then charismatic style prayer groups can be a distraction.

On the plus side, I have seen charismatic prayer groups aid in “jump starting” the faith life of many. Then, after a few years or so they leave the prayer group and become active participants in parish life.

Hi there sis,

I would say for me that I enjoy both hearing from the Lord in contemplation and also praising Him with tongues!

Sometimes we listen and sometimes we speak, isn’t that what a relationship is?

 

[DebChris]

Freshman 88 mentions the sudden implementation of the NO in 1970. That is the poor implementation to which I referred in an earlier posts. This was contrary to the spirit and direction of Vatican II. It was not the experience of all of us that lived through the reforms that came out of Vatican II.
Our liturgy does indeed come from the Jewish liturgy. This is the form of worship that the Apostles would be used to. The early Church attended synagogue and then met in homes for the Breaking of the Bread. These early Christians would have worshipped in Aramaic, the language they understood or in Hebrew, the language of worship in synagogues throughout the world. Greek eventually became the language of the Mass until it was replaced with Latin, the vulgar language of the people. There was controversy with this change. Greek was the language of the aristocracy and the learned. The* Kyrie* remained in Greek.
I did not experience communion rails being suddenly torn out or the wholesale removal of statues. The priests in the churches where I attended Mass did not wait before implementing the changes, according to the schedule outlined by Pope Paul VI. Indeed, the Document on Sacred Liturgy warned against this sudden implementation, for the sake of the laity.
As part of our cathecism. the post chaplain turned the altar around in order to teach us the different parts of the Mass. He never turned it back. The Mass was still celebrated in Latin which gradually changed to English. If I remember right, the Kyrie was the last to be changed. I could easily have understood it remaining in Greek.
During Advent and Lent, it is not unusual for the Kyrie to be recited in Greek and the Agnes Dei in Latin where I now attend Mass.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Is it possible to be a charismatic obedient traditionalist Catholic?

I certainly hope and pray that I am and will always remain one
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Brian777]

The Latin rite as we know it came about from the holy council of Trent.
That’s not 2000 years.
If you subscribe to the idea that we can’t change the rite for the sake of conserving tradition, then you must argue in favor of the primitive (as in original) Greek liturgy of the apostolic and early post apostolic age.

All in the spirit of charity, brother.

The Apostle who started our Rite, St. Peter said the Mass in Latin because that was the language of the people where he founded his particular church. Therefore the greek was part of the Eastern Rites, and only in the Greek rites themselves.

Also, the Tridentine mass was codified at trent, and many of the Dogmas and doctrines were finally codified as well. THIS BY NO MEANS means that before Trent these weren’t just as binding or prevelant in Church Tradition. The Mass may have varied from place to place, but it was pretty much the same deal visually. So i think we need to remembber that different liturgical practices can abound, but they must be within the same block of one another, maybe the same street, but not all the way across town

 

[Dorothy]

Hi there sis,

I would say for me that I enjoy both hearing from the Lord in contemplation and also praising Him with tongues!

Sometimes we listen and sometimes we speak, isn’t that what a relationship is?

Yes, that is true. But after 28 years in the renewal I truly felt led to stop going to prayer meetings and focusing more on quiet prayer.

I am in no way slamming the renewal. I have heard very many positive things happen to faith and deepening one’s prayer life through great prayer groups that are obedient to the Magisterium.

 

[Brian777]

I am not sure if you would agree with what you said. After all, teh CCR is now a tradition kept over the whole church. In fact, in nearly every diocese, we now have a charismatic liason to the bishop. This helps the movement stay connected with the universal church.

So if the CCR has become a tradition of the church, why is it not untouchable?

I think people have prejudice that they cannot let go of. Ask the popes!

So you mean to say that the movement isnt just part of the parish having modern style masses with drums and guitars and all that happy-clappy stuff? Its actually something outside the mass?. Its not actually connected to the diocese?

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Yes, that is true. But after 28 years in the renewal I truly felt led to stop going to prayer meetings and focusing more on quiet prayer.

I am in no way slamming the renewal. I have heard very many positive things happen to faith and deepening one’s prayer life through great prayer groups that are obedient to the Magisterium.

I have heard what you said about the CCR / baptism in the Spirit really jump starting a person’s faith. I agree wholeheartedly.

Did you know that before Mother Angleica started EWTN, she was prayed over and received the gift of tongues?

I have heard that many have gone on to do great works in the church after their call to the CCR.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

So you mean to say that the movement isnt just part of the parish having modern style masses with drums and guitars and all that happy-clappy stuff? Its actually something outside the mass?. Its not actually connected to the diocese?

Hmm I am not sure if I can answer this because I am not sure what you are asking.

I will say that in our diocese, we have many events for the CCR. These are the bigger events btw.

Now, the parish groups are overseen by the Liason. Those groups do hold masses at thier parishes and other events there like Life in the Spirit Seminars.

Ther eis a difference between the parish level and the diocese level. But the Liason is there to oversee and make sure that all is done with the approval of the Bishop. That is what I meant when I said that we stay connected to the church.

 

[DebChris]

So you mean to say that the movement isnt just part of the parish having modern style masses with drums and guitars and all that happy-clappy stuff? Its actually something outside the mass?. Its not actually connected to the diocese?

There is definitely more to the Charismatic movement than “happy-clappy stuff.” There are Charismatic Masses, and there are groups that meet weekly. The prayer group that I most frequently attend is an intercessory prayer group. The meeting begins with a couple of songs. Sometimes we can already feel God’s presence as we come into quietness or softly begin to pray in tongues. It is at this point that there may be a prophecy or interpretation of tongues. We praise and give thanks to God for answered prayer. After a couple of more songs and quiet in which God may or not speak we begin intercessory prayer for ourselves, for people we know, for the community in which we live, for the saftey of our troops, for an end to abortion, and for other areas of concern. We include the requests people have given us as well as requests that come to mind during the prayer meeting. This weekly meeting in no way resembles a Mass.
The first prayer group to which I belonged could be considered more “happy-clappy.” We would group hug anybody who came in late. There would be songs. The person who played piano was a professional with muscular dystrophy. There would be prophecy, as mentioned in an earlier post. A teaching was also an integral part of each meeting. The subject taught could be about prophecy, what it is and isn’t. It could be about discernment. Sometimes we would have guest speakers such as Abbot Garret from Pecos talk about love or reconciliation. This meeting did after all take place at a retreat center. It is here that I heard the testimony of a priest who was contemplating leaving the priesthood until the Holy Spirit touched his life with the Baptism in the Spirit. A Life in the Spirit Seminar might be part of the meeting. And of course we prayed for one another as well as other needs that came to mind. We would sing “Fill my House Onto the Fullest” and the room would fill with people before the end of the song. After the meeting food would be served and we would fellowship with one another.
When I went to work the next day, the avowed agnostic would know exactly where I had been the previous night. I did not need to say a word.
Each prayer group has its own unique characteristics.
When I was a new Charismatic, I had the opportunity to attend a Charismatic Mass monthly. This took place in the fellowship hall fo the Cathedral with the Bishop’s full knowledge. The last time I attended a Charismatic Mass was last year. It was the healing Mass of which I wrote in an earlier post.

 

[Brian777]

Hmm I am not sure if I can answer this because I am not sure what you are asking.

I will say that in our diocese, we have many events for the CCR. These are the bigger events btw.

Now, the parish groups are overseen by the Liason. Those groups do hold masses at thier parishes and other events there like Life in the Spirit Seminars.

Ther eis a difference between the parish level and the diocese level. But the Liason is there to oversee and make sure that all is done with the approval of the Bishop. That is what I meant when I said that we stay connected to the church.

I guess what i am asking is is it almost like its own “rite” so to speak. if a parish has a group, does the parish priest say Masses or does the movement have its own priests. I guess i really dont kmow how to word my question.

 

[Dorothy]

I guess what i am asking is is it almost like its own “rite” so to speak. if a parish has a group, does the parish priest say Masses or does the movement have its own priests. I guess i really dont kmow how to word my question.

Some parish priests become involved, some do not. It depends on how they are led and how many other obligations they have.

I wouldn’t say it has its own “rite”,…just that they allow for the manifestation of the gift of prophecy, in an orderly fashion, after some quiet time after the reception of the Eucharist.

 

[latinmass]

Where was the Holy Ghost for all those hundreds and hundreds of years between the establishment of the Church and the 1960’s? Please see post #32 and #44. He was always here, but in the 1960’s some felt it necessary to create what is not necesarry out of emotion and a need to see something.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Where was the Holy Ghost for all those hundreds and hundreds of years between the establishment of the Church and the 1960’s? Please see post #32 and #44. He was always here, but in the 1960’s some felt it necessary to create what is not necesarry out of emotion and a need to see something.

The Holy Spirit was still here. If with God, a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day, he got here in 2 days. Jesus was in the tomb for 3. I think he got here pretty fast seeing all that had to be done. Latinmass, don’t put God in a box. He does not fit.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B