Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[Margarite]

That’s right he swore obedience to the Church. Yet how is standing up for the truth an act of disobedience? Remember The diocese was clearly wrong and acting unjustly.

How can you claim to be Catholic and in union with Rome and spew such fallacies? It is horrible. Earlier, I saw that you compared your priest with St. Athanasius. Well, the only way I can say that your argument would hold would be if you thought that the bishop over that priest was a heretic. Now, I know you don’t think that, so your comparison is very bad. And when St. A. was persecuted by his bishop, he didn’t just go on doing what he wanted to do, he went to the pope. That is a very important thing. He didn’t disobey, he just went to a higher power and asked their decision. Just as a child who thinks their older sibling is unfair goes to their parent and complains, so should a priest who thinks their bishop is unfair should go to the cardinals and then the pope. That is why the Church has the hierarchal system.

I love how your just dishing out spiritual advice and commenting on a priest - (the laity these days, eh?)
Are you a priest? Why are you commenting if you aren’t? This is a stupid, and yes I mean stupid, argument.:nope:

Freshman88:
Anyway. That’s it exactly, obedience to Jesus. But what does that mean? Would you be more obedient to Jesus by following a wrongful law or by making a stand for the truth? I could have sworn Jesus was the Truth, not a bishop - that’s exactly the distinction that this priest made, and so he followed Jesus by following the truth. If you want blindful obedience, you can have it.
Christ is Truth, Truth set the Catholic Church above everyone and put it as the guide to follow. If this priest thought he was better than Christ then sure, he can dis the Church, but I think he was just letting pride get in his way. “I know that the TLM is better. If my bishop doesn’t agree then he is stupid. I am right. I will do what I want because I am right. Who cares about the Church that Christ set up? Who cares about the system that has fought heresy for over 2000 years? Who cares that the pope says that the NO is completely valid and equal to the TLM in every way? Who cares that the pope, Christ’s representative on earth, has put this bishop over me? Who cares that I swore to God that I would obey this bishop? I am right! I shall not obey!”
Well, as it was said earlier,
Christ obeyed the father by obeying men who were bad and who were doing wrong, but he still obeyed even unto death on a cross. Is this priest greater than Christ that he can disobey when even God obeyed?

I am sad that you prefer this single priest who is so proud, to the Church that Christ started. I will pray that you have a change of heart and realize that the “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church” is the only sure way to salvation. Please come home.

 

[DustinsDad]

Those who seek visions and ecstasies do so for their own edification.

I would say those who are given such, are given such for their own edification (aside from private revelations approved by the Chuch such as at Fatima) - but we are not to seek after them (see above post).

Such supernatural manifestations certainly are given at the discretion of the Good Lord, and they can “wake a person up” so to speak - spiritually. No catholic can deny this. The Lord also wakes a person up in a multitude of other, eh, “less glamorous” ways…in fact, more often than not.

I asked for the flame of faith to be ignited within me. It was, but I am not standing amidst the flames, reveling in them. I departed and took the flame to others who are placed in my path on a daily basis.

Very good - and praise God. I think all the faithful do this, modeled after Our Lady herself - just look at the first two mysteries of the rosary - after the Annunciation comes the Visitation. Our Lady received God Himself - the Incarnate Word - in her very being. And rather than simply sit in a corner and revel in this awesome (understatement of all time) event - she immediately she went forth in charity to help and aid Elizabeth in her time of need.

I guess I post this to demonstrate to you that the concerns regarding the Charismatic Movement many of us voice are not automatically rejections of the work of the Holy Spirit - think of the concerns as legitimate questions regarding how well the movement as a whole (and individually) are “testing the spirits.” We can be deceived.

There are some legitimate questions here.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Brian777]

True, but disobedience began it all. Since the two forms of masses are equal in grace, how about remaining obedient, praying for and patiently teaching your superiors?

We forget the first step to follow Christ: “Deny yourself”
We often forget the second step as well, lacking patience.

Christ’s peace.

I recently attended an indult Mass celebrated by the Vicar General of the Institute of Christ The King. He explained very well how though the NO was intended to be equal to the previous liturgies, it in fact is not. I wish i could tell you exactly what he said, but i forget the details. He said the problem is primarily with the translations. But he did say that the NO can be said in such a way that the Grace is not so easily attained. I was shocked
but i thought about how explained it. Then i went to another High Mass that same day, and then i went to my parish the next sunday for a NO celebration, and during mass i had a sudden understanding of what the Monsignor had said. It made perfect sense to me. The fact that it hit me during Mass tells me that it came from God.

 

[Brian777]

There’s a wonderful story about a local priest in the diocese where my school is. This priest was active during the liturgical reforms and obediently accepted the changes as they came. Eventually however, he began to notice that the general attitudes of his flock were changing and that the new rite was not fostering the kind of spiritual growth that he once had at his parish. He came into contact with another priest who then began to convince him as to why the new rite was flawed. He then returned to the old mass. Parisohners from all over the diocese came to his parish because of their love of the old rite. Several months later, the Canadian congress of bishops banned the old mass, and this priest was told he would have to stop. He refused. He made his case to the bishop and pointed out exactly what our Holy Father had just pointed out in the MP, that the Church cannot turn around and say what was once holy is now no longer holy. He was forced to celebrate mass secretly, and attended to traditionalist across the nation.

The point? This priest could not blindly bow down to authority. Sometimes it is right and proper to fight, and for fighting for the liturgy of the last two thousand years, he was proven right in the end. Sometimes authority can be wrong, misguided, and in such cases we must take extra precautions not to be fooled, else we become schismatics. This priest was able to resist the SSPX and the violent reforms of his bishop, may God bless him for it!

What happened to him in the end? Where is this man of faith now? God bless him!

 

[Margarite]

The reason I dislike the SSPX, the Charismatic Movement, etc… is that it is all about a person’s personal feelings!

I mean all the CM people are saying that they are part of that group because it makes them “feel good” and the “feel” closer to God. The SSPX people and all others like them (and yes I am talking to you Brian777 & Freshman88), leave the Church for these TLM’s because they “feel” better after mass, or they “feel” better during mass, or they “feel” closer to God because they “feel” that the mass is more beautiful.

I AM SO TIRED OF THIS FEELING STUFF!

---

I mean if you read Mother Teresa, you see that she did not “feel” God, but she carried on anyways, she did her best, she will probably become a cannonized saint if she isn’t already, (I can’t remember), and** SHE DID NOT FEEL** GOD!

I am sorry for ranting, but I am tired of this! One of the most wonderful things about our Catholic faith is the fact that it does not change according to our whims or feelings, but always stays the same for 2000 years. God is unchanging God is not about feelings, but rather about substance. I mean as my dad always says, “We can argue about how hot a hot fire is, but the fact remains that it is fire and it will burn.” You can say that a hot fire is 2000 degrees, while I say a hot fire is 200, but the fact remains that it is hot and it is fire and it will burn.

The Church is the Church. The Church is right in all things that are stated infallibly. If the members of the Church are wrong, it needs to be fixed, but it does not hurt the Church as a whole. The Church is untouchable and infallible. So anyone who tries to say they know better than the Church is fool. I am not saying that the members of the Church can’t be wrong, but that is no reason for attacking the Church or any other members of the Church.

As far as the Charismatic movment goes, I respect that y’all like it and “feel” inspired by it, but we who have not been a part of it are asking you questions about outside of your feelings. We want “facts and figures” so to speak. Feelings are great, but they differ from person to person and they are easily influenced. Faith and Logic are the best defences against the Devil and everything evil, so give us some faith based logic please.

Please forgive me if I sound too strong to you, but I don’t mean to offend you, I just mean to say what I need to say bluntly and without any politics. And to those of you outside the Church. Come back and stop running away from the fight. Get into the Church and fight the evil that is trying to take over. The Church will win in the end, but let’s make it win quickly and let’s finish this war soon.

PS: I think this is my favorite thread of all time!

 

[antimon]

the Charismatic Renewal IS NOT ABOUT FEELINGS. Those (whether charismatics or no) who think it is, are simply wrong. Charisms are just another gift from God for his Church. The style of charismatic worship is just another human expression of faith and worship. You could easily say that sacraments are about feelings, that prayer is about feelings, etc…

For example, we are encouraged to praise and thank and worship Lord whether we feel good or bad, whether we feel like or not. It’s a kind of sacrifice, when you decide to praise and thank Lord even when you are sad and lonely, for example.

Yes, there are many abuses and misunderstandings. But they are everywhere, in traditionalism too, so that is no excuse.

but when one looks upon it from a different perspective… isn’t even the faith in God influenced a lot by feelings? Would anyone of you believe in God if it made you depressed, dismal and desperate? Doesn’t your faith bring you joy and peace? If it doesn’t, then something is wrong.

 

[DebChris]

the Charismatic Renewal IS NOT ABOUT FEELINGS. Those (whether charismatics or no) who think it is, are simply wrong. Charisms are just another gift from God for his Church. The style of charismatic worship is just another human expression of faith and worship. You could easily say that sacraments are about feelings, that prayer is about feelings, etc…

For example, we are encouraged to praise and thank and worship Lord whether we feel good or bad, whether we feel like or not. It’s a kind of sacrifice, when you decide to praise and thank Lord even when you are sad and lonely, for example.

Yes, there are many abuses and misunderstandings. But they are everywhere, in traditionalism too, so that is no excuse.

but when one looks upon it from a different perspective… isn’t even the faith in God influenced a lot by feelings? Would anyone of you believe in God if it made you depressed, dismal and desperate? Doesn’t your faith bring you joy and peace? If it doesn’t, then something is wrong.

Emotions are fleeting, but the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not.
Charismatic Renewal is simply that, a renewal of the spiritual life. Jesus spoke about a house divided. Why would Satan want us to use gifts that brings individuals to a greater worship of God, and into greater intimacy with our Creator, a greater appreciation of what the crucifixion meant for us? It is not simply that Jesus was crucified. Crucifixion was common. Jesus overcome death that we might have life. Jesus took our sins upon Himself. We are a resurrection people. We have reason to rejoice.

 

[Irish_Saints]

Charismatic Renewal is simply that, a renewal of the spiritual life. Jesus spoke about a house divided. Why would Satan want us to use gifts that brings individuals to a greater worship of God, and into greater intimacy with our Creator, a greater appreciation of what the crucifixion meant for us? It is not simply that Jesus was crucified. Crucifixion was common. Jesus overcome death that we might have life. Jesus took our sins upon Himself. We are a resurrection people. We have reason to rejoice.

I’ve been following this thread silently for quite a while, watching the ebb and flow of conversation. I interject now because the above (bolded by me for emphasis) is part-and-parcel why many have difficulties with the Charismatic Renewal Movement.

Precisely, greater than what? Greater than attending Mass? Greater than receiving the Eucharistic Christ? Greater than praying the Divine Liturgy? Greater than solemnly reciting the mysteries of Our Lady’s rosary? Greater than living a life of simple faith and self-denial? I would really be interested in knowing what can be greater than these things?

I’m a former Pentecostal. I’ve been through all the hoopla with tongues and prophecy and words of knowledge and so forth. Assuming for the sake of argument any of it was valid (and looking back, I have my doubts), I can say that it all pales into insignificance by just one, holy Mass. Just one hour spent before the Blessed Sacrament. Just one rosary prayed from the deepest and most sincere part of our selves. Nothing at all is greater. Nothing.

Like others here, I am not eschewing the power of the Holy Spirit to do and act as He wills. I do indeed believe in the genuine charismata. I just question whether most of what passes for these “spiritual gifts” actually passes muster. For me, virtually everything I’ve personally encountered within the CRM does not pass the sniff test. There’s no centralized authority within the movement, no real standard of right or wrong, there is no one figure who can or will step up and address the obvious and flagrant abuses that take place within the movement.

Now, there are those who identify themselves with the CRM, or at least as “charismatics”, whom I greatly admire. Fr. Benedict Groeschel, Br. John Michael-Talbot, and others have a life that appears to transcend such minutia as charismaticism. In other words, whatever gifts they may have been given, they don’t wear them on their sleeves. You won’t find JMT singing “Stand Under the Spout Where the Glory Comes Out!”

I will say this: if charismaticism becomes the norm; that is, if it not only gains acceptance and approval but is somehow made compulsory, I’d have a real problem. It could very well be THE deal breaker. I am just THAT adamantly opposed to it.

 

[Michael96]

The talk of feelings is an interesting one.

I tend to start each prayer time now “putting myself in the presence of God”. I don’t imagine God is any more or less there just because of my awareness of his presence, but I find it helps my prayer time to “feel” his presence, and to spend some silent time simply being aware that I am with God (and inviting God to consciously or subconsciously fill me with his Spirit and with any guidance I need).

Something I picked up from a Jesuit is to visualise Christ’s presence during the day (e.g. in meetings at work). In this way it helps me be very aware of Christ’s presence during the day and it reminds me of who I am trying to be like. Again I would say that it does help to “feel” Christ’s presence.

I don’t think this is necessary and I don’t think it’s the type of approach that suits everyone, but it has helped me. I think it’s different strokes for different folks; some prefer set prayers that have stood the test of time and others, like me, prefer a more meditative approach and one that does involve being aware of the presence of God, or “feeling” the presence of God.

 

[DebChris]

The talk of feelings is an interesting one.

I tend to start each prayer time now “putting myself in the presence of God”. I don’t imagine God is any more or less there just because of my awareness of his presence, but I find it helps my prayer time to “feel” his presence, and to spend some silent time simply being aware that I am with God (and inviting God to consciously or subconsciously fill me with his Spirit and with any guidance I need).

Something I picked up from a Jesuit is to visualise Christ’s presence during the day (e.g. in meetings at work). In this way it helps me be very aware of Christ’s presence during the day and it reminds me of who I am trying to be like. Again I would say that it does help to “feel” Christ’s presence.

I don’t think this is necessary and I don’t think it’s the type of approach that suits everyone, but it has helped me. I think it’s different strokes for different folks; some prefer set prayers that have stood the test of time and others, like me, prefer a more meditative approach and one that does involve being aware of the presence of God, or “feeling” the presence of God.

Great post. This is how I “feel” God’s Presence although I can’t say that I visualize Him. When I spent time in Conyers, I was told how to “go into [my] closet,” by simply using the word God or Love until the word disappears. I had learned a different method when Abbot Garret spoke at the Marian House of the Lord, the name of the retreat center where I first came in contact with Charismatics. There I learned about praying the Jesus Prayer on Jesus beads as a way of entering into contemplation.
Even the first time I entered the grounds of the retreat center, I could feel the pervading peace. I felt the same Peace on entering the grounds of the Franciscan Retreat Center where I would go for silent retreats.

 

[DebChris]

Irish Saints
I think I have on several posts mentioned being invited to an Apostolic Pentecostal church. I had already gone to Mass, so I was within the laws of the Catholic Church.
The men and women separated into separate prayer closets. They remained there until they worked themselves into a frenzy praying in tongues. My basic reaction as I watched the service was the danger of Jim Jones. A young boy suddenly began praying in tongues and there was an baptism immediately after the service. What I did not see was any consent to the baptism. This is the type of emotionalism to which I suspect many on this thread and others refer.
After that I was hounded, accused of not being a Christian or saved because I did not speak in tongues.I simply replied that some Catholics do speak in tongues. I had not yet met any, but I had seen a news article about Catholics praying in tongues.
The person who had invited me did not understand how I could not be moved, how I could simply watch as the preacher spoke. For her part, she would not accept my return invitation to come to Mass, to see how Catholics worship.
The charismata are gifts given by the Holy Spirit to be used in his service. They are not a requirement for Salvation.

This is a reference to my last post. Thomas Merton felt God’s presence when he walked into a Catholic Church. That sense led to his conversion.
Please look at each word that I used after the word greater. Perhaps deeper would be a better term. I have a deeper understanding of the Sacraments, of what God’s love truly means than I did before my Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Freshman88]

What happened to him in the end? Where is this man of faith now? God bless him!

He is a semi-retired pastor at the local EF community, and is in full communion with Rome and the diocese .

 

[Freshman88]

How can you claim to be Catholic and in union with Rome and spew such fallacies? It is horrible.

lol, hold your horses there - what exactly is false?

Earlier, I saw that you compared your priest with St. Athanasius. Well, the only way I can say that your argument would hold would be if you thought that the bishop over that priest was a heretic. Now, I know you don’t think that, so your comparison is very bad.

No it is quite good, both were fighting for what was right when they were expected to conform to what they knew was wrong.

he didn’t just go on doing what he wanted to do, he went to the pope.

. Incorrect, St. Athanasius did indeed continue to keep on doing what he wanted to - which was to promote Orthodoxy.

He didn’t disobey, he just went to a higher power and asked their decision.

Again incorrect, he did disobey, he continued to preach the ever-begotteness of the Son despite being punished by his Patriarch, to whom he was loyal to, not Rome.

Just as a child who thinks their older sibling is unfair goes to their parent and complains, so should a priest who thinks their bishop is unfair should go to the cardinals and then the pope.

and what if our peccable Holy father was not helping?

Are you a priest? Why are you commenting if you aren’t? This is a stupid, and yes I mean stupid, argument.:nope:

Not it isnt a stupid arguement - your sitting in your desk chair dishing out comments pertaining to the spiritual well being of this priest. You, as the laity have no business commenting on a priest who is now under the diocese. Priests are spiritual superiours and they can give out the kind of remarks that you are making on this priest, remarks you have no business making.

Christ is Truth, Truth set the Catholic Church above everyone and put it as the If this priest thought he was better than Christ then sure, he can dis the Church, but I think he was just letting pride get in his way.

Just wow, slow down here … “though he was better than Christ?” where do you get that kind of none sense from? He knew that the Church could not lawfully ban the EF mass, he acted accordingly, and was right the whole time as the recent MP shows.

"I know that the TLM is better. If my bishop doesn’t agree then he is stupid. I am right. I will do what I want because I am right.

A) He was right … B) They weren’t talking about which was better, he was protesting the banishment of the EF altogether.

Who cares about the Church that Christ set up? Who cares about the system that has fought heresy for over 2000 years?

Just who the hell are you? Are you honestly questioning by understanding or fidelity to the Church?

Let me turn the tables… Who cares about the fact the liturgy is a deposit of faith? who cares about the traditions and wisdom preserved in the Roman missal? who cares about the liturgy which has produced hundreads of saints and popes over the last millenia?

Christ obeyed the father by obeying men who were bad and who were doing wrong, but he still obeyed even unto death on a cross. Is this priest greater than Christ that he can disobey when even God
obeyed?

Christ only obeyed bed men when they were right - Christ only obeyed what was right, he never did anything wrong. It doesn’t matter if one is bad, good, in authority or not, what matter is the truth, this is our sole guide in life.

I am sad that you prefer this single priest who is so proud, to the Church that Christ started. I will pray that you have a change of heart and realize that the “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church” is the only sure way to salvation. Please come home.

Pray for me? No I prefer you not pray for me and that you not patranoize me … how cruel and down right disrespectul to use prayer as an arguement.

And how dare you pit this holy priest against the Church, he does not stand in opposition to it.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

OK everyone. Stop…Take a deep breath. Remember, when angry, its best not to say anything, but prayer. somehow its more intense that way.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Margarite]

OK, First off, I think we need to decide what is right and wrong within the Church. From my experience disobedience is bad, and obedience is good.
Even if a priest thinks he is right, that does not give him the right to disobey.
The bishop has been put over the priest as his leader and mentor. If the priest disagrees, then there are cardinals and a pope to appeal to. Today, when a letter can be sent and received in a matter of days, or an e-mail in a matter of seconds, there is no excuse whatsoever for this priest to disobey and not appeal to higher authority.
If the priest thought that the NO was invalid, and that was his excuse for not saying it, well then he certainly did step over the line because the Pope has said that the NO is valid, and that priests must believe that it is. I don’t know where the quote is, I will try to find it.
When I read about St. Athanasius, he did not follow the path that you laid out, so please give me a link to a cite where I can become enlightened about his disobedience.

and what if our peccable Holy father was not helping?

Did the priest try? I doubt very much that the pope would ignore this. Besides, there are special groups of priests that this priest could have joined and they are allowed to say the TLM. The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter is one of these groups.

Not it isnt a stupid arguement - your sitting in your desk chair dishing out comments pertaining to the spiritual well being of this priest. You, as the laity have no business commenting on a priest who is now under the diocese. Priests are spiritual superiours and they can give out the kind of remarks that you are making on this priest, remarks you have no business making.

It is the job of the laity to think for themselves and correct wrong where they see it. I have been to many masses when I was younger and the priest would preach heresy. Well, my father went up and corrected the priest afterwards and that was his duty. Where there is wrong it is the duty of anyone who sees the wrong to address it. If the priest wouldn’t listen, then my father would write the bishop and if the bishop wouldn’t respond, then my father wrote the ---- Oh, I can’t remember the name, but it is the central hub of the Catholic church in DC. And they always responded. It is our job as Catholics to stand up for the Truth wherever there is less than truth. And that is what this entire website is based on. People asking questions and getting them answered by other Catholics, and sometimes people disagree, and then they argue it out until the Truth is discovered.

 

[Margarite]

He knew that the Church could not lawfully ban the EF mass, he acted accordingly, and was right the whole time as the recent MP shows.

He thought that his bishop could not do this. The Church could very easily ban the TLM, it is not indispensible. Sure, it would be a horrible loss to the Church, but the Church can do that. It is possible. Where has a pope stated that the TLM shall always be around? I cannot think of a single place. If you find one please cite it so that I can read it.
So, if I am right as I think I am, this priest could not have known without a doubt that the “Church” (who was really his bishop) “could not lawfully ban the EF.” That is just wrong. Second, even if the bishop was wrong, the Church was not. Third, I come back to obedience. The priest SWORE that he would obey his bishop. Well, where I come from an oath is something to keep until death, unless the oath itself is evil. And I know that the oath to obey a bishop is good, so…

A) He was right … B) They weren’t talking about which was better, he was protesting the banishment of the EF altogether.

A) He was not right to disobey
B) A priest is a public person, he should not protest something that his superior did publicly, and he should not use his position as a priest to protest. His position could have been very confusing to the faithful, and he is responsible for any confusion. I sure wouldn’t want that on my soul.
C) Back to point A, The SSPX used this excuse: “We are right, so we have the right to disobey” Well, they were ex-communicated, and I am surprised that your priest was not. Maybe your bishop was unaware of his activities, so he could not ex-communicate him.

Just who the hell are you? Are you honestly questioning by understanding or fidelity to the Church?

Please don’t use this kind of language it is offensive, rude and unnecessary. Get a dictionary and use a different word.
I am questioning this priest’s fidelity to his oath to obey his bishop.

 

[Margarite]

Let me turn the tables… Who cares about the fact the liturgy is a deposit of faith? who cares about the traditions and wisdom preserved in the Roman missal? who cares about the liturgy which has produced hundreads of saints and popes over the last millenia?

I care. I love the TLM. I try to attend a TLM whenever it is possible, but I will not abandon the Church for my personal preference. I personally think that the TLM has so much to offer the Church, and that it is a huge blessing, but I will not disobey the Church or her teachings in order to follow my preferences.
It would be extremely wrong to disobey because I don’t “like” it. Sure many saints went to the TLM, and I love the TLM, but I am also sure that once the NO gets settled, there will be hundreds of thousands of saints that will go to that mass too. Right now the NO is in a state of turmoil because of lack of leadership and discipline. Hopefully, Pope Benedict and whoever comes after him will be able to clean up the mess. This process has already begun, but as my pastor said on Sunday “The Church is a huge body and big bodies move slowly.”

Christ only obeyed bed men when they were right - Christ only obeyed what was right, he never did anything wrong. It doesn’t matter if one is bad, good, in authority or not, what matter is the truth, this is our sole guide in life.

So are you saying that the Pharisees were right to crucify Christ? Are you saying that it was right for Pilate to crucify Christ? Are you saying that it was good for Christ to be whipped? Are you saying that all this was right and good? If you are saying that, I don’t know if we can continue talking because that just isn’t rational.
I am sad that you prefer this single priest who is so proud, to the Church that Christ started. I will pray that you have a change of heart and realize that the “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church” is the only sure way to salvation. Please come home.

Pray for me? No I prefer you not pray for me and that you not patranoize me … how cruel and down right disrespectul to use prayer as an arguement.

Every person should want as many people as possible praying for them. I have SSPX relatives who are praying right now for me to be SSPX, I want them to pray for me, maybe those prayers will be answered through them becoming one with the Church, or maybe they will be answered by helping me get to heaven, either way, I can’t understand anyone who would not want the prayers of another especially another in their own religion. I mean if I was praying to the devil, then I could understand, but I am praying to God, the God who you believe and put your trust in. Why wouldn’t you want my prayers. Please pray for me, even if you don’t want me to pray for you.

And how dare you pit this holy priest against the Church, he does not stand in opposition to it.

Then why won’t he follow the rules, why won’t he obey?

I’m sorry y’all for posting a little off topic. Do you think I should start a new thread?

Have a Wonder Full day and weekend. I probably won’t be back until Monday. I try not to go on these threads on the weekend.

 

[Margarite]

As far as the Charismatic Movement goes, (I had written something out, but it got lost ) Um, I really like what Irish Saints said.
The problem with the CM is the same problem with the USCCB (US catholic conference of bishops) There is no one in charge. There is no central authority, there is no one person saying this is right and that is wrong. This is good and that is bad. There needs to be some authority, there needs to be someone who can be questioned and followed. There needs to be someone who sets the rules and makes sure they are followed.
There needs to be authority and discipline or it just leaves everything open to abuse.
The NO mass is in trouble right now because no one knew the rules, so they made up their own, or they just did what they wanted. Now Pope Benedict has to lead the clean up crew. He is stepping into the shoes of authority and he is leading the way towards a more unified Church.
I am not an anarchist, I don’t think any of you are, but don’t you think the CM is a little like anarchy?

I got to go now. I ran out of time, darn it
See you on Monday. Don’t write too much without me

 

[DebChris]

Throughout this thread, I have read complaints that the Charismatic Renewal has no one person in charge. At the same time there is the observation that non-Catholic denominations developed because people chose to follow one individual rather than the Apostles.
It is true that no one person is in charge of the Charismatic Renewal because it is the work of the Holy Spirit, not individuals. It is God who decides to whom He will give His gifts. I can use the gifts I have been given. Nobody can decide for God to whom these gifts will be given. As has been mentioned earlier, those who have been part of the Renewal help newcomers learn to use these gifts. In the first prayer group to which I belonged there were teachings each week. Many of these teachings were about the charismata. Others were about the teachings of the Church and/or prayer. Spiritual books were traded during the fellowship that followed these prayer meetings. During retreats, we prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide the priest as we waited in line for the Sacrament of Reconciliation. A person does not need to be charismatic to engage in this practice.
Having charismata does not mean I have advanced further spiritually than others on this thread. I do not claim my Baptism in the Spirit as the beginning of my faith life. It is a step in the process of my spiritual development that has taken me further in my spiritual life than I could have ever expected to come. I am not at the end of my journey.
i have a long way to go and it is not my place to decide where any other person is in his or her spiritual life.

 

[deborahssong]

Greetinsg to all…

and grace and mercy abound to each of you.  Wow!  I read this post and I had to respond.........Margarite....God bless you....I was over whelmed actually by your in depth answer.Though you are most defintiely educated with the correct information about the catholic church....you my dear sister in Yeshua..are MISSING the point.....may I say this, the church in its richness also teaches the word of God is TRUTH as well.  and by FAITH we receive what God has done, is doing and will do!  The rules that you claim do not exist....most defiitniely do!  In His Holy word!  Paul warns of abuse of the gifts, the Corinthian church seemed to be doing that inseveral ways,  however he also exhorts of keeping the gifts within the body, in tact.
As I read this I was so moved by your answers , you and deacon Ed B.......I just said this to a pastor the other night.....I said I have a problem with those who try to box God in and His work.  One o fthe areas of great renewal in the catholic church is this area of scripture study!   As catholics learn the word of God along with the rules and regs of the church.....revival will most defiitnely break out....Pentecost was NEVER meant to forget..........What God done then He is doing now folks.  In the past weeks I have met catholics who just illuuminate the power of God in their lives and I have met those who base their walk solely on what the church says WITHOUT the Holy Spirit's guidance...they are solely relying on what they are told and that is it....how sad! No reflection of His light, only reflecetion of memorized church doctirne...without ever checking it out!  Paul says we do have the right to judge WITHIN the church...not outside!   That is limiting God , boxing Him in.
   I have experienced personally the absolute power of God....Acts1-4, hasnt changed........WHEN we believe.......Jesus said IF ONLY .....you believe........The move and power of the Holy Spirit is a FAITH issue!  See hebrews 11. .By the way I am already being sought to work in different areas of the charismatic renewal and the church......I thank God that those in leadership recognize what God has done in me, from my journey,  not by my knowledge or lack of, in the catholic church and its doctirne but by my my personal testimony and exhibit of the gifts God has given me.....to Him be the glory forever and ever.....Hi there Deacon Ed B.......I am doing great and moving forward in the things of God...and loving every single minute...SO many areas of serving opportunity at the new church...St Peter the Apostle......God Bless you all.....

Deborah
Philippians 4:13…
The church is NOT a building…it is all of us gathered in HIs name to worship and praise and serve our most Holy Creator…all though the power of His SON! That is the church.