Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[una_fides]

I have hard time to understand your mentality. We just celebrated Pentecost Sunday where “they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues….”. (Acts 2:1-11) Speaking in tongue is recorded in the Bible black and white.
There is nothing new. Where is the problem?
I believe all your questions have been well answered multiple times with supporting documents.

That’s fine. If you don’t want to experience the Holy Spirit, you don’t have to.
Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. Having nothing to do with the Holy Spirit is your loss, but you can’t accuse others who have had genuine intimate encounters with Him.

If you read 1 Corinthians 12:1-11, you will see all these gifts are manifested in Charismatic movement. If you ignore the Popes’ encouragement of the Charismatic movement, what part of the Bible proof are you objecting?

We are not living in AD 60. For about two thousand years, there has been no record of speaking in tongues until protestants, whose theology was opposed to the Catholic Church, attempted to revive the practice. I say “attempted” because in the Acts passage you referenced, the apostles were clearly speaking in understandable and discernible languages; whereas the protestants began by simply making noises and claiming them to be of divine origin.

The practice consists of letting loose inhibitions and opening one’s self up to their base impulses. The problem is that inhibitions are a good thing and keep us from sinning and when they are released and people act on base impulses, many abnormal and in some cases even diabolical things have occurred. The “barking like dogs” that is continually referenced may not occur on a regular basis, but it was present and has been present in many alleged “supernatural” occurrences attributed to the pentecostal spirit. There have also been numerous attempts at prophecies that have fallen quite short of fulfillment. Lastly, the cm itself in its origins did not lead people to the Catholic Church but instead taught that the Catholic Church was evil or that Catholics were deceived at best.

Your comments make it seem as if I and all the saints that have lived throughout the history of the Church are missing out by not engaging in these strange and often disorderly behaviors. I beg to differ. Jesus and his sacraments have been enough for 2000 years. There is no need to replace the emphasis with other distractions 2000 years after Christ has formed his Church.

 

[Joysong]

Una Fides:

We are on an apologetics forum, so I propose that we continue to defend our faiths in order that the truth can hopefully prevail.

This is not an apologetic forum. It is a Spirituality forum where Catholics are generally not put on trial about their lawful beliefs. If an inquiry is generated and one cannot accept the myriads of explanations offered, the person would need to acknowledge that and move on. You are relentless in your challenges, yet failed to answer a simple question I asked of you:

Why is it that you are adept at researching multiple articles, links, and books that disparage the movement, yet you claim to be uninformed about the good links, posts, books, etc. that are all over the forum and easily accessible?

Why do you not read them? The answers are there. I believe it is because you do not accept the answers.

 

[DebChris]

The Saints throughout the centuries have drawn great strength from the Sacraments. Nobody so far on these posts has downplayed their importance. Indeed, during times of persecution and imprisonment, bread and wine has been stolen in order for the Faithful to receive the Eucharist.
The Sacraments are efficicious sign of our Faith. The relationship of the Saints to God did not end with receipt of the Sacraments, nor does it end there for any of us. We are called to an initimate relationship. It is this relationship that the saints cultivated. It is this relationship that allowed healings and other miracles to take place by the power of the Holy Spirit.These are indeed charisms recognized and authenticated by the Catholic Church.
It is the Holy Spirit who guided the saints even when the Sacraments were unavailable. It is the Holy Spirit who leads us to intercede for one another, to use our gifts for the upbuilding of His kingdom.The charisms which we have received make it possible to respond to the invitation that God has given each of us to have and enjoy that initimate relationship with Jesus Christ to which each of us is called by virtue of our Baptism. This is possible by the power of the Holy Spirit. Were this not the case, would the bishops in unison have included mention of the Charismatic Renewal in the United States Catechism of the Catholic Church for Adults?
“Resting in the Spirit” or being “slain in the Spirit” is not an everyday occurence. When it does happen, it is because the person has been overpowered by the Spirit of God. It is definitely not willed. It does allow for profound healing. To receive any of the gifts that God wills to give us requires openness and docility. It requires us to set aside preconceptions and to come to the Father as a little child, to heed His voice.

 

[Plain_Catholic]

Someone mentioned that there was no indication that Jesus spoke in tongues. A wee reminder: tongues is not the only gift of the Holy Spirit. From 1 Corinthians 12 (Douay-Rheims)

• 1 Corinthians Chapter 12
  1 Corinthians Note 12:0
  Of the diversity of spiritual gifts. The members of the mystical body, like those of the natural body, must mutually cherish one another.

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual things, my brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:2
You know that when you were heathens, you went to dumb idols, according as you were led.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore, I give you to understand that no man, speaking by the Spirit of God, saith Anathema to Jesus. And no man can say The Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:5
And there are diversities of ministries. but the same Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:6
And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all.

1 Corinthians 12:7
And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.

1 Corinthians 12:8
To one indeed, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom: and to another, the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit:

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another, faith in the same spirit: to another, the grace of healing in one Spirit:

1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles: to another, prophecy: to another, the discerning of spirits: to another, diverse kinds of tongues: to another, interpretation of speeches.

1 Corinthians 12:11
But all these things, one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will.

1 Corinthians 12:12
For as the body is one and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body: So also is Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free: and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink.

1 Corinthians 12:14
For the body also is not one member, but many.

1 Corinthians 12:15
If the foot should say: Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body: Is it therefore not of the Body?

1 Corinthians 12:16
And if the ear should say: Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body: Is it therefore not of the body?

1 Corinthians 12:17
If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?

1 Corinthians 12:18
But now God hath set the members, every one of them, in the body as it hath pleased him.

1 Corinthians 12:19
And if they all were one member, where would be the body?

1 Corinthians 12:20
But now there are many members indeed, yet one body.

1 Corinthians 12:21
And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help. Nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you.

1 Corinthians 12:22
Yea, much, more those that seem to be the more feeble members of the body are more necessary

1 Corinthians 12:23
And such as we think to be the less honourable members of the body, about these we put more abundant honour: and those that are our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

1 Corinthians 12:24
But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving to that which wanted the more abundant honour.

1 Corinthians 12:25
That there might be no schism in the body: but the members might be mutually careful one for another.

1 Corinthians 12:26
And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it: or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it.

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.

1 Corinthians 12:29
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?

1 Corinthians 12:30
Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

1 Corinthians 12:31
But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way. *

With this in mind, Jesus who is one with the Holy Spirit, manifested all of these gifts when they were needed and necessary. He spoke Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin and Greek as was needed. He healed, prophesied, etc.

1 Corinthians reminds us in verses 29 and 30 that not all possess all of the gifts at any given time. The implicit understanding is that Jesus was the only one fully integrated with all the gifts.

Finally and most importantly, tis endorsed by Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI. The Charismatic Renewal movement is officially recognized by the Vatican. If we claim obedience to the Magisterium, we most assuredly must accept this endorsement as well lest we be seen as opposing God’s representative on earth. We must always keep before us the wisdom of Gamaliel in Acts 5 when he said:

Acts 5:38
And now, therefore, I say to you: Refrain from these men and let them alone. For if this council or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
Acts 5:39
But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God. And they consented to him. (Douay-Rheims)

 

[Joysong]

Thank you for sharing, Plain Catholic. There are many gifts/charisms that the Holy Spirit bestows in the Church, all intended for the building up of the Body of Christ. It is good to remember that these various charisms are manifest not only in the charismatic movement, but are possessed by any who have a deep union with the Spirit, in the measure He wishes to bestow them. He breathes where He will.

One that I would like to call attention to is discernment of spirits. In Acts 5:3, Peter was able to peer behind the veil and see the evil spirit of Ananias, who for all outward appearances, was acting honorably and thinking nobody knew of his deception. The Spirit exposed it through Peter for the good of all who were present.

This gift was not confined to the early church, but was active throughout the entire history of the church, and is the promise of the Lord that He would not leave us orphans — His Spirit would teach us all things.

The problem with discernment had arisen on one occasion when the disciples wanted to root up what they felt were noxious weeds. Jesus explicitly told them to leave them be. I had posted [this](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2239383&postcount=51 Palmas85) a year ago when objections were raised to certain aspects of the CCR. DId that explanation or many other replies help this poster? Not a whit, for he has returned with more of the same obstinence throughout this thread.

Discernment from the Spirit teaches us when to help, and when to shake the dust. When anyone’s heart is hardened and not open to truth, God’s faithful are often able to perceive it spiritually. It is a very practical gift, among the many other charisms that God bestows.
Una Fides:

While those in the ccm are quick to point out that some bishops have approved the movement, this recognition does not authentically validate the individual practices in the movement nor does it eliminate the possibility that the movement could be condemned or silenced at a later time.

Expectations that one is wiser than the bishops or Popes, and that a movement may be condemned, is pointing solidly to disbelief and faith in the Magisterium. We might say that this is to be “protestant,” especially when research about a movement is gathered solely from erroneous protestant resources in lieu of solid Catholic teachings.

 

[InLight247]

We are not living in AD 60. For about two thousand years, there has been no record of speaking in tongues …

No specific record does not mean it did not exist. Remember if we want to record everything Jesus did or said, even the entire world could not conatin.

Also keep in mind, to God, a thousand years is like a day. Two thousand years are like two days.

The practice consists of letting loose inhibitions and opening one’s self up to their base impulses.

No, it is not opening oneself to his base impulse, it is opening oneself to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. There is a major difference.

Your comments make it seem as if I and all the saints that have lived throughout the history of the Church are missing out by not engaging in these strange and often disorderly behaviors.

No, I never said if you don’t speak in tongue is your loss, I said if you want nothing to do with the Holy Spirit is your loss.

You don’t have to speak in tongue to have a deep encounter with the Holy Spirit.

The Saints, may or may not speak in tongue, all have deep communion with the Holy Spirit.

You would not understand what I am talking about unless you have experienced God in that intimate way. Again, it is not speaking in tongue I am referring, it is the encounter with the Holy Spirit, the life changing experience, the genuine renewal, the being loved experience, the encompassing overwhelming love, and the peace beyond any comprehension or description. When you meet the living Christ in such a profound way, you will never be the same. Many who are baptized in the Spirit have experienced that. Yes, traditions and Sacraments are great, but our God is a living God, He always does new things in our lives if we let Him. If you don’t want the gifts, the Holy Spirit will never force you. He is a gentleman.

Speaking in tongue is not the only thing charismatics are doing. It seems that you are against the charismatic because you feel you are lack of something if the movement is authentic and you are not part of it. You really don’t have to feel that way.

I beg to differ. Jesus and his sacraments have been enough for 2000 years. There is no need to replace the emphasis with other distractions 2000 years after Christ has formed his Church.

You don’t have to be a charismatic. Many have said that multiple times. You should not critize the work of the Holy Spirit, and hold an attitude that you konw it all.

 

[Joysong]

Una Fides:

The Church has never provided a solemn judgement on the matter neither has she specifically addressed the individual actions of which i am calling into question: speaking in tongues (as is practiced in modern charismatic churches) and being slain in the spirit.

You amaze me that you are able to provide multiple documents from popes in this thread, demonstrating that you are quite capable of performing research to support your opinion, but you do not know how to research the questions you ask.

From Pope John Paul II here:

Charisms

1. The Holy Spirit, while bestowing diverse ministries in Church communion, enriches it still further with particular gifts or promptings of grace, called charisms. These can take a great variety of forms, both as a manifestation of the absolute freedom of the Spirit who abundantly supplies them, and as a response to the varied needs of the Church in history. The description and the classification given to these gifts in the New Testament are an indication of their rich variety. "To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues" (1 Cor 12:7-10; cf. 1 Cor 12:4-6, 28-31; Rom 12:6-8; 1 Pt 4:10-11).

Whether they be exceptional and great or simple and ordinary, the charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit that have, directly or indirectly, a usefulness for the ecclesial community, ordered as they are to the building up of the Church, to the well-being of humanity and to the needs of the world.

For this reason no charism dispenses a person from reference and submission to the Pastors of the Church. The Council clearly states: “Judgment as to their (charisms) genuineness and proper use belongs to those who preside over the Church, and to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good (cf. 1 Thess 5:12 and 19-21)”(82), so that all the charisms might work together, in their diversity and complementarity, for the common good(83).

Note well, that he speaks in present tense and does include the gift of tongues.

As for the phenomena of being slain in the spirit, this is not a charism, but an effect that St. John of the Cross has addressed in speaking about spiritual apprehensions, along with St. Teresa of Avila – both of whose writings were elevated to proclaiming them Doctors of the Church.

What needs to be discerned are those gifts which directly effect the Body of Christ within whom one ministers. That would include teaching, healing, miracles, etc. There is no need to discern whether one is praying in tongues authentically, which is known ONLY to God – this does not directly affect any other person in the faith community. Can you imagine the workload and ridiculous atmosphere that would exist if one who prays in this manner were brought to the bishop and ordered to pray in tongues so he could authenticate it?

This should not be your concern to pass judgment on the entire movement simply because you have doubts about this isolated gift, which St. Paul stated was the least of all. Your ludicrous comment that people bark like dogs reminds me of the isolated clown mass, and is not even an iota close to being the norm or worthy of disparaging the entire movement. I have NEVER seen this in a single prayer meeting where charismatics gather. Your protestant research articles may have given that particular witness, but it is not typical of the Catholic CCR. I think you would secretly have to admit to knowing that.

The one and only sure test of any tree is in the fruit of a person’s life, which has been commented upon more than once in this thread. Not, whether their prayer in tongues is true or false. It is one of those MYOB situations.

 

[InLight247]

by **Una Fides **
There have also been numerous attempts at prophecies that have fallen quite short of fulfillment.

Prophecy is a gift, even received it from God, has to be developed. Most prophet would not become an expert of prophecy from day one.

An immature prophet is different from a false prophet.

A false prophet is someone who purposely said something untrue out of his own will.
An immature prophet is someone who received message from God without absolute clarity.
Instead of keeping it to himself, he expressed the message out of obedience. He may or may not receive the message clearly.

Also, the way we interpret a prophecy may not be correct, and situation could also change after the prophecy. It happens a lot in the Old Testament.

Jonah 3:1-4
1 Then the word of the Lord came to Jonah a second time: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.” 3 Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very important city–a visit required three days. 4 On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned.”

Was Nineveh overturned in forty days?
No.

Was Jonah a false prophet?
No.

The gift of prophecy needs to be practiced and developed. An immature prophet is not a false prophet. There is a learning curve.

You cannot accuse charismatic movement because some prophecy is short of fulfillment.

 

[DebChris]

In LIght–I am glad you mentioned the expression of prophecy. When I have been used for this purpose, I generally start with “I hear” or “I sense” rather than “The Lord says.” It is best presented in a spirit of humility and subjected to discernment. Indeed, in the large conferences I have attended (that all might be in order), a person who believes he/she has a Word from God or a scripture passage to share is normally required to write down the Word. At that point it is submitted to a discernment team. What a person hears may be simply a private message. The idea of submission to authority has been emphasized throughout this thread.
Plain Catholic–Your mention of other gifts likewise follows what I have posted.
God is not limited by time or space.
Joysong–You used the word I was searching for to describe “resting in the Spirit” as an effect rather than a gift.

To submit to the Holy Spirit means allowing oneself to be transformed or changed into the person God would have each of us be. The willingness to ‘let go and let God’ is not always easy. Many of us fear change so we cling to the familiar without accepting the possibility that by relinquishing control, we might discover a whole new energy and way of living our Faith.

 

[Pani_Rose]

In LIght–I am glad you mentioned the expression of prophecy. When I have been used for this purpose, I generally start with “I hear” or “I sense” rather than “The Lord says.” It is best presented in a spirit of humility and subjected to discernment. Indeed, in the large conferences I have attended (that all might be in order), a person who believes he/she has a Word from God or a scripture passage to share is normally required to write down the Word. At that point it is submitted to a discernment team. What a person hears may be simply a private message. The idea of submission to authority has been emphasized throughout this thread.
Plain Catholic–Your mention of other gifts likewise follows what I have posted.
God is not limited by time or space.
Joysong–You used the word I was searching for to describe “resting in the Spirit” as an effect rather than a gift.

To submit to the Holy Spirit means allowing oneself to be transformed or changed into the person God would have each of us be. The willingness to ‘let go and let God’ is not always easy. Many of us fear change so we cling to the familiar without accepting the possibility that by relinquishing control, we might discover a whole new energy and way of living our Faith.

I always ‘offer this for your decernment’ then ‘I believe I hear the Lord saying…’ when I sence the Lord is desiring to let us know something. I agree everything must be done in humility before our God praying always in the Name of Jesus - that is he who is doing the work, and not any among us.

God bless you all for your wonderful expressions of faith that you have been sharing.

 

[Joysong]

Debchris:

… a person who believes he/she has a Word from God or a scripture passage to share is normally required to write down the Word. At that point it is submitted to a discernment team. What a person hears may be simply a private message. The idea of submission to authority has been emphasized throughout this thread.

This is the bona fide use of the gift of prophecy in a group situation … let the others judge. Thanks for bringing up this important criteria of true prophecy.

What is most disturbing was discovering that Una Fides submitted a church-condemned apparation’s website to support his denunciation of charismatics. And this was at the very top of his list of sites to examine.

Not having a great deal of faith in his links when I saw the heretical one from Traditioninaction, I lightly scanned through the first paragraph but failed to connect the Lady of the Roses with the Bayside apparations, until a second scan today showed it almost near the bottom of the link … and also in very small print at the very top indicating it is Bayside’s Home page.

I realize it is not prudent to repost his links to this heretical website [which is not permitted here at CAF], but it will certainly reveal that we have been in the presence of a false prophet, whether or not he is aware of his own deception. Most informed Catholics know about this condemned apparition. He would have charismatics believe what is contained in this false revelation.

**"My children, you have fallen into errors. My Son gave you a concise, a direct plan for your salvation in His House, His Church. All manner of novelty and change must be stopped now. You will not gather souls with compromise.

“You who call upon the Spirit forcefully command the spirit of darkness, the prince of darkness, to send his agents into you**. You are treading where angels would fear to go, My children. You cannot force the Spirit to come to you. It is a gift given at the discretion of the Eternal Father. Stop now your meanderings into regions of darkness.” - Our Lady of the Roses, June 18, 1976

The amazing Bayside Prophecies…

tldm.org/News8/CharismaticMovement.htm

 

[DebChris]

This is the bona fide use of the gift of prophecy in a group situation … let the others judge. Thanks for bringing up this important criteria of true prophecy.

What is most disturbing was discovering that Una Fides submitted a church-condemned apparation’s website to support his denunciation of charismatics. And this was at the very top of his list of sites to examine.

Not having a great deal of faith in his links when I saw the heretical one from Traditioninaction, I lightly scanned through the first paragraph but failed to connect the Lady of the Roses with the Bayside apparations, until a second scan today showed it almost near the bottom of the link … and also in very small print at the very top indicating it is Bayside’s Home page.

I realize it is not prudent to repost his links to this heretical website [which is not permitted here at CAF], but it will certainly reveal that we have been in the presence of a false prophet, whether or not he is aware of his own deception. Most informed Catholics know about this condemned apparition. He would have charismatics believe what is contained in this false revelation.

I knew nothing about this “apparition.” I do know that the Magisterium investigates all reported apparitions to determine their authenticity… Of those currently approved, we have Lourdes, Fatima, Knock, Gradulupe, and one in Germany.
One of the things I find on these threads is a misunderstanding of what the magisterium is. The magisterium includes the Pope plus all the bishops combined. Their infallibility when all are in agreement comes from the Holy Spirit.
Discernment involves weighing together what the Magisterium teaches with scripture, spoken prophecy, and life circumstances.
Few Catholics have ready access to the writing of the Fathers of the Church. We do, however, have the Catholic Catechism of the Catholic Church. One of the purposes of the CCC was the development of local catechisms. It is the US bishops working together who developed the United States Catechism of the Catholic Church. These both extensively reference their sources, including Scripture and the writings of the doctors and Fathers of the Church. There is no reason to fear a reversal of position.
Many of us have heard the stories of the saints passed down through oral tradition or read the Lives of Saints as part of our own catechesis. As cradle Catholics, they were a part of our upbringing.
I also never consider wikipedia as a valid source of information.

 

[Margarite]

I am not posting about the subject anymore, but I would like to say hello! Last weekend it was 110 degrees here in Vegas, and now it is 61 degrees! Isn’t that GREAT! And we might have rain for the first time since before Easter! I am feeling so wonderful, and I just wanted to share a smile with you all, don’t forget to smile
Have a WONDER FULL day!

 

[Joysong]

I am feeling so wonderful, and I just wanted to share a smile with you all.

Thanks for stopping in Margarite! After a terrible three-week period of desolation and trial which was further enhanced by terrible weather, today I was filled with joy and saw for the first time this month a lovely blue sky. The song that came to mind and that I’ve been singing all morning is:

Lo, the winter is passed,
Rains are over and gone,
Flowers appear on the earth!

Lo, the winter is passed,
Rains are over and gone,
Glad songs … glad songs are heard!

It looks like our weather patterns are reversed in each of our localities. You are getting the rain we have been inundated with.

My habit for many years was to spend my day playing praise tapes and singing to God, and haven’t sung this one in ages! I don’t even know which tape it’s on.

After reading your greeting, it blessed me to know that God is spreading His consolation to others. Have a great weekend everyone!

Carole

 

[Margarite]

Joysong, I am glad you are enjoying the weather you like most! Here in Vegas, we need all that rain that you have been getting for the past 3 weeks, we need lots of it. We have clouds often enough, but only very rarely do we have any rain, and even when we do it only is like a spitting sort of rain, and it lasts less than 15min. So rain rain come today! That is what we are singing I’m so happy you have a break from the rain, and hopefully we will have a break from the dry – lack of weather.

Have a great 3-day weekend all.

(PS: This rain is in answer to the 9HM’s I said this Tuesday. Read my signature. Our Lady never fails to comfort us.)

 

[Dies_Irae]

una fides;3711960:

…I would also hope that perhaps those who are engaged in this movement might instead consider the Church’s sacraments and traditional practices alone to be sufficient.

That’s fine. If you don’t want to experience the Holy Spirit, you don’t have to. Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. Having nothing to do with the Holy Spirit is your loss, but you can’t accuse others who have had genuine intimate encounters with Him.

The fact that a charismatic catholic says the Church’s sacraments and traditional practices means “having nothing to do with the Holy Spirit” sort of justifies folks concerns over this movement - no?

 

[InLight247]

The fact that a charismatic catholic says the Church’s sacraments and traditional practices means “having nothing to do with the Holy Spirit” sort of justifies folks concerns over this movement - no?

I am not sure I understand your statement.
No one has ever said Church’s sacrements have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. Where did you get that idea from?
Did you read the thread carefully? Don’t cut paste partial of the post and make a false accusation. Read the entire content to understand the point.

Charismatic movement is a different way of the menifestation of the Holy Spirit. Trinity cannot be seperated. Trinity God is in all Sacraments and in the charismatic movement.

Please read the entire post before you throw in your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Joysong]

The fact that a charismatic catholic says the Church’s sacraments and traditional practices means “having nothing to do with the Holy Spirit” sort of justifies folks concerns over this movement - no?

No. You are misreading her, perhaps due to not following the recent posts on this thread. I suppose I was dreaming to think we had finally concluded this looooooong discussion, and that nobody else would come along and throw firey darts to keep the flame of controversy alive.

Most opponents of the CCR have extreme misgivings, if not outright disbelief in the charismatic terminology of baptism in the Holy Spirit, which is an ardent supplication in some of these prayer gatherings. This does not attempt to downplay or eradicate the role of the Holy Spirit as received in the sacramental life of the Church, nor in any way to minimize the importance of the devotions we practice.

May we put this to rest, please, on a good note?

 

[Dies_Irae]

I am not sure I understand your statement.
No one has ever said Church’s sacrements have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. Where did you get that idea from?

From your post, the one I quoted.

Charismatic movement is a different way of the menifestation of the Holy Spirit. Trinity cannot be seperated. Trinity God is in all Sacraments and in the charismatic movement.

Then why did you say to the person who suggested the Sacraments and traditional practices of the Church were sufficient - “If you don’t want to experience the Holy Spirit, you don’t have to.”

It certainly sounds like you are saying the Sacraments and traditional practices of the Church are not enough to experience the Holy Spirit. If that’s not what you meant, then fine. But that’s what you said.

Stikes me as rather odd, since the Sacraments stand far and above personal extra-sacramental experiences. The Holy Spirit is acting and working in every valid Sacrament - he may or may not be acting and working in every charismatic experience. Big difference I would say.

And yeah - I have read through most of this thread. Quite the novel.

God bless,

Dies Irae,

 

[InLight247]

I suppose I was dreaming to think we had finally concluded this looooooong discussion, and that nobody else would come along and throw firey darts to keep the flame of controversy alive.
…
May we put this to rest, please, on a good note?

Joysong, I hope your dream come true!
Happy long weekend!